pitching and gymnastics

[drewski]

hi my name is drew and i have been reading this site ever since watching slizzardmans bicep tendon videos on youtube a couple years ago.. about time i register

i am a baseball pitcher who suffered a minor avulsion fracture to the ulna bone.. in the xray it only shows a small hairline crack in extended arm position. i recongize the mastering of body control and stability in gymnists, as well as work ethic. i am particularly fond of iron cross and how the arms deal with significant valgus stress. as a pitcher, this form of stress is destructive on every throw beyond 80% max. however granted i have the flexibility of most intermediate gymnists, i am looking for superior stability. its been some rehab work now, bicep and forearm strengthening with curls, holds, and compound lifts. i am looking for "exotic" ways to enhance valgus stability in the arm. thus far i will be attempting progressive iron cross cautiously.

i was once able to throw hard and safely.. this injury was my fault taking a year of training adding 100+ pounds to all lifts while maintaining the same BW of 185. i rushed my throwing program wayy to fast and like an idiot i lifted upperbody in the morning with longtoss in the afternoon my body was in no condition to throw 90+

i have great knowledge of mechanics in pitching and working on realizing physical therapy as a whole which will encompass many different forms of arts. if you can share your knowledge, i would be forever grateful and when i get back to being better than what i was, i can promise youll hear from me on a bigger screen.. i just have worked too hard for 12 years to lose my arm now because of my stupid mistake.

if any pictures or anything you guys need, ill answer

drew.

[RatioFitness]

Getting to an iron cross without making your situation worse will be a multi-year endevour. You should follow Coach Sommers iron cross prereq's before training the cross unassisted.

http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewto ... 988#p12726

[drewski]

yes i understand the years of training you guys have put in to do that feat just how ive spent so long doing things to get velocity

i am not looking to preform the move now or in years time, maybe later in life but what i am seeking is the stability required for such a hold

[Augmenting Ape]

You may not want to hear this, but a few "Experts" (Mike Reinold, Eric Cressey [they treat and train multiple pro pitchers]) in the field have suggested that highly specialized athletes (read: you) sometimes make irreversible adaptations by the time they are pubescent. I don't know how long you've been pitching but if you've been throwing since an early age you may find that your throwing shoulder is "tilted". You probably have excessive ex. rot. with ridiculously short int. rot. Young bodies are very very flexible and adapt to the environment that they are put in. Your throwing shoulder probably does not "match" your other shoulder in terms of actual shape (internal shape).

From what I've read on this forum and other publications, to properly perform an iron cross one must be able to retract the scaps while internally rotating the arms to the point where the pit of the elbow points at the ground. Getting the elbow-pit of the throwing arm to point directly down is going to be a REAL bitch.

I don't mean to discourage you, but please make sure that you have the internal rotation (or the POTENTIAL for that internal rotation) necessary for such an element.

GIRD!

http://www.throwinginjuries.com/gird.htm

It's super common....

[Joshua Naterman]

Ape, that is just one way to do the cross. I, for example, have much more valgus stress and don't feel anything. Of course like many I am years away from a cross I am about 1/3 of the way there in terms of actual structural strength based on free motion machine simulations.

OP: I would suggest cable machines, but before doing anything make SURE that avulsion fracture has completely closed. You may want to research novel methods for accelerating bone healing or stress fracture healing. Was there a full avulsion or was it just the hairline? What structures were attached to the (partially?) avulsed bone? What part of the bone, exactly, was avulsed?

Can't make any good recommendations without knowing exactly what you are dealing with.

[drewski]

i really appreciate this guys, i learned something new. i am quite lax i think more musclar than joints but always have been more than enough flexible.

slizzardman, i am going today to get the report so i dont give false info.. he explain it was a minor minor avulsion fracture.. i did see him 2 weeks after the fact so im putting a picture up

he even said i could start a intervel throwing program late january but im waiting for the next xray and using the time to strengthen the biceps and flexor area.. and of course tricep/extenders

that little black line is the best description i memorized what it looked line.. dr loeftler said he didnt see it at first, his radiographer double checked, middle right near coronoid process and on the ulna

doctor L said its pretty odd to be older and not suffer from the medial epicondiyle.. "most likely the bone will heal fine, elbow stability is fine, just stay away from high velocity extension for another month."

this injury happened because of my stupidy.. i have gained immense strength/speed since last year and slowly approaching low 90s now.. mechanics are not exactly a problem, the way i went about my throwing program and long toss was rushed and inexcusebly retarded. things happen for a reason, luckily the day i heard the pops there was no bruising, color, or significant swelling. i immobolized it for 24 hr, then slowly worked extension with light pronation.

arm injuries happen because of fatigue, and that day i was because i did an upper body workout in the morning... and rushing my time to get the arm used to the new speeds its traveling now.. just utter foolishness almost costed me a career...

so i have to find a way to sustain the new valgus forces that i obviously am not prepared for to be consistent..

[drewski]

sorry for the double image.. but thank you for mentioning the excessive ext rotation and limited internal... as that combo leads to shoulder and TJ surgeries

and while mentioning i was fatigued that day, jan 4th, also i havent been doing direct arm work (ever honestly) and i have slacked on the rice bucket routine because well i learned to stop making excuses

many factors contribute this injury.. no doubt the strength of my arm mucles compared to the body is not in porportion..

as of now i am going to focus on rows and curls.. i wass thinking about what static holds do (rythmic stability too) place on joint stability as well as neuromuscluar reaction

[Augmenting Ape]

Ape, that is just one way to do the cross.

Thank you for correcting me, Slizz. Now however, I am curious how many [safe] ways there are to hold a cross...

I was under the impression that one had to load the elbow from the front via the biceps tendon purposely so that one isn't loading at the side of the joint (in a direction that they were not made to flex in).

I, for example, have much more valgus stress and don't feel anything.

could you elaborate a bit on that?

[drewski]

i suppose if you pronate the forearem? do all iron cross attemps have that curled wrist on the rings?

[Blairbob]

do all iron cross attemps have that curled wrist on the rings?

No. Technically it's a small deduction but it's sometimes taken and other times not. Ideally you don't want to take it as a cross is only worth 0.2 and a false grip is -0.1.

I don't think it's really taken on a maltese or victorian. Debateable.

[Alvaro Antolinez]

I going to jump here but I am a complete ignorant in baseball, or sport injuries, or anything related so If I´m saying something stupid just tell me so!.

I understand that that small fracture is from overuse in your joint, due to high intensity and repeated forces to the bone, ligaments and tendons. What are the actual prehab methods you use?.

Ring training surely could be useful for you, not just the cross, but all straight arm work on rings strengthens the elbow joint due to (as far as I know) the instability and vibration that requires all the muscles, tendons and ligaments to grow stronger (I don´t know if it increases bone density, but it´s likely).So beginning with the basic ring exercises (like supports, HS, german hang) and then building slowly to the cross will surely help somehow (just don´t jump to train the cross directly, as you are risking a fatal injury, much more severe than the actual one).

Are you using vibration plates?, they improve tendon , ligament strength AND bone density (I just read that russian cosmonauts used it to allow setting orbit records of 430 days, helping fight the osteoporosis). Maybe they have some use for your bones too.

Also the kind of snap your arm suffers when throwing (pitching?), may be some how similar (and here I am just thinking out loud ) to ring or high bar swings. Maybe that kind of exercise used as a prehab could give nice results.

When you train in a normal season, are you able to have some days off, giving time to the body (specially bones and tendons) to recover(and maybe training technique or strength )? or you just have to pitch, pitch and then pitch some more? (really I do know nothing about this topic)

[drewski]

il like your post cause you think with sense, the injury did happen from fatigue of my arm muscles + throwing near max

time will allow bone growth only i think, unless a shot or some other medical technique.. i take all kinds of oils + glucosamine/chrondriate..

though i also have to say jumping from that kind of velocity the forces my lower half/trunk is doing could be too great to travel to my smaller joints in the arm..

i agree on progression being the most effective way to anything.

[drewski]

bump- after some sessions of front side work my arms feel much better.. starting to work tossing medballs around now before throwing in 3 weeks

[Joshua Naterman]

i suppose if you pronate the forearem? do all iron cross attemps have that curled wrist on the rings?

Part of why I have more valgus stress is that my external rotators are tight. I can't rotate any more inward than about 20-30 degrees past vertical elbows (as imagined by defining vertical as a line going through the epicondyles from floor to ceiling). It's just not currently something I can do in an IC position.

Drewski, a combination of manual therapies twice a week to keep healing rates up in the connective tissue along with regular heat treatments (especially immediately after the manual therapy) is about all you can do outside of slow, progressive, pain free work.

I wouldn't jump up more than 2-3 mph every 2-4 weeks in your pitches, to be safe, and stay with a lower speed for a while if you ever feel anything at all when you speed up. You have pitched long enough to be able to use subjective feeling fairly accurately for this purpose, but one of those pads that tells you the pitch speed would be nice if you've got one. That way you can really keep things accurate.

I would never throw more than 7-10 pitches in a set, and I would work up to 40-50 pitches per training day starting with 10-20. I mean slowly too, not 10 at a time. Treat yourself with care and your body will last you. In your case especially, slow recovery = long career.