T-NATION has gone full blown gymnastics

I will not comment on the plagiarism part, other than that it is sad to see such mediocrity published as being revolutionary. Especially the part about only needing to claim the FL for 1-2s and then putting up a video of a momentary bent arm FL. People who are interested will eventually find the source of quality information in my opinion, which is why i sincerely hope they find this site.

Aushion Chatman said:

1) We are currently nearing completion on a new redesign for the GB website. Once this is released, there will be an affiliate program available.

2) Beginning with the GB May Seminar, in addition to the normal GB Certificate of Attendance (worth 25 ACE contact hours) there will also be a Level 1 GB Certification available for those who would like to pursue this. This will be quite tough to achieve as demonstrated physical proficiency will need to be shown for the Level 1 elements in addition to passing a written exam and video analysis.

Excited to hear more!

Coach Sommer said:

DrAlexisOlson said:

... Honestly, creating basic progression for L-sits and front levers is hardly rocket science. Many people have done them since before you were born and others will continue to re-invent such progressions long after we are all dead ...

In that case, perhaps I should consider not releasing further materials as it is all common knowledge anyway.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I see no reason to jump to such a conclusion. A well-written comprehensive collection of exercises and descriptions of their progressions still holds considerable value (particularly to beginners) even if parts of it are not particularly revelatory to those who have been involved in gymnastics for decades. I would not have bought your book if I had found it to devoid of useful information.

The issue at hand is not whether Coach feels he owns gymnastics exercises, but that he feels the authors of the T-Nation article used his work without proper credit. At every seminar I've attended, Coach Sommer has always given extensive credit to those who contributed to the training he does. Various series, prehab elements, and exercises have always been given proper credit. If he makes effort to credit others, I do not see it unreasonable for him to expect the same courtesy from those using his work. Whether or not the T Nation article represents plagiarism is an individual matter of opinion, however they did clearly reference his work in the training methodology of sixty second aggregate holds and that specific manner of dividing them up.

Thanks for focusing things, Cory Fair.

Your Example 1 is one of the more questionable parts of the T-Nation article.

The deadlift example might be taken from BtGB, but I wonder what their source for the bench press anecdote is.

Personally, I'd give the T-Nation authors the benefit of the doubt on the explanation of the progressions.

There are certainly similarities, but nothing really conclusive.

The part that seems most likely to be a rip-off of Coach Sommer's methods is the following:

Note on progressions: The goal is to accumulate 60 seconds in each hold. This could be 10 sets of 6 seconds, 6 sets of 10 seconds, or 3 sets of 20 seconds – it doesn't really matter. Once you can hold the position for 30 seconds straight, continue to the next progression.

This sounds very much like the Steady State training cycles described in BtGB (which I would argue is not necessarily common knowledge among even gymnastics coaches). Relevant quotes from BtGB are as follows:

1) An eleven second maximum hold divided by two equals a tuck planche "rep" of approximately six seconds.

2) Sixty seconds total work time divided by six seconds equals ten sets.

3) You will perform ten sets of six seconds. [...] Maintain it even towards the end of the cycle, when you are feeling particularly strong and stable at 6 seconds.

When you are capable of performing a static hold for longer than 15 seconds,

you should proceed onward to the next harder variation; provided you can

hold that new variation for at least three to five seconds.

Coach Sommer said:

DrAlexisOlson said:

... Honestly, creating basic progression for L-sits and front levers is hardly rocket science. Many people have done them since before you were born and others will continue to re-invent such progressions long after we are all dead ...

In that case, perhaps I should consider not releasing further materials as it is all common knowledge anyway.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

GAH, don't even JOKE about that.

Withdrawal sweats throughout the world.

Jeff @ CFST said:

Isn't Alexis a girls name?

Really? That's where you're going to take this?

Don't mind Jeff, he's just being a smartass.

Heheh. :roll:

At the risk of sounding childish, Jeff makes me laugh

He's a stand up guy and has lived a life that many wish they had the balls to dream about, much less step into. I consider him a good friend, and while I am sure that his comment has stirred up a bit of controversy and understandable reactions, what he is saying is "Seriously man, open your eyes and see what is in front of you."

There are so many people who want to believe the best, or keep the jury out until the truth has been shoved down their throats by many repeated witnesses or experiments. This is not a case where such a process is necessary.

We discuss what these gymnasts do on a regular basis, much of the information coming from a guy on here who personally trained in the same gym as Yao Minyong regarding bench presses. Gregor also posts a bit of information in this regard.

If you read the book, it is pretty explicitly stated that a 3x bodyweight DL was well outside the norm and the T-Nation guys are trying to pump a bunch of hype by misusing direct anecdotes from a source that they didn't recognize until I was so persistently open with my comments (which were all logical and made perfect sense, by the way) that they had to admit that they were exposed to the book.

It is pretty silly that such a thing has happened, I mean come on... only second rate people choose to try and train someone in something that they are not an expert in and have not A) accomplished themselves or B) been able to repeatedly train other athletes to accomplish. You have to do one or both if you are going to give quality advice.

Only second rate people knowingly take the material of another person and don't even mention the source in passing. This is as much a matter of respect as it is of legality. "Legal" and "right" or "ethical" are not synonyms.

There was never any intention of directing people here, you have to know that. As it is, they have been forced to be aware of this site and the material contained here. If nothing else, any future plagiarism should at least be somewhat accurate.

I can tell you right now that if I wrote that article as a report I would get a big fat zero for not citing sources, and probably get kicked out of my major for not mentioning that the information in the article is based off of an existing publication, or came from whatever coach they learned it from. Not one person was mentioned. Why?

As I mentioned on T Nation, there is no reason to not say where your ideas come from. Poliquin does it, Pavel does it, and that is because it is part of the professional's responsibility to his peers. It is crazy to think that this is somehow not a big deal...

Imagine that you have a system that you have developed over a period of 20+ years. It has become many different things and is now, finally, very polished and effective. It has been your life's work. Seriously, take some time and put this into perspective. Think back 20 years or as close as you can, depending on your age. Now take a year at a time and learn new things, scrap parts of the old training as you learn to do things better, watch your athletes go to competition and not have to complain about pains that everyone else has but your athletes do not. The other competitors think they are just acting tough, but they really feel fine. Your training methods have created relatively injury free athletes in a sport where it is normal to always have something that is hurting. You continue on, revising things until you are capable of taking a talented kid and developing the kind of ring strength and technique in a 12 year old that rivals the best of the college athletes. You have done well, and you know it.

Now go read an article talking about your material, methods that are used by no one else in publication. Methods that are not used by other coaches, which you know because you have talked shop with so many at competitions over the course of your career. Your name is not mentioned in passing and not only is your life's work being passed off as someone else's idea but you have to watch them show such crap form that is embarrassing to think that the public will see this and think it is the right way to do things, not knowing that they are being set up for all kinds of potential problems.

Do not try and make the argument that the authors didn't try and pass off the material they discuss as their own, they did. Any time you write something and don't mention where you got ideas from, you are basically saying "this is mine." It is the impression people get, and that is why there are so many rules regarding plagiarism.

The main problem here is that at least here in America, and to a large extent around the world, we have stopped demanding that we respect each other. We, collectively as a culture, have turned into spineless masses that believe a man stepping into your home with the intent to harm you has the right to sue YOU when he slips on your freshly mopped kitchen floor and fractures his pelvis. We are no longer concerned about doing what is right, and that is disgusting. Modern culture should be ashamed of this aspect of itself but it is not. To me, that is a huge problem and I have no issues with being vocal about that.

We have turned into lawyers, beings that navigate the twisting corridors of technicality without regard to ethics. It is about getting away with whatever you can, not being a grown up and giving credit to others where credit is due. Who on earth thinks they have a right to guide others down a path to something they have not accomplished? How can they guide where they have not been? They will have to use the knowledge of someone who can guide and has been there, whether it is Coach or Paoli or a Cirque instructor (not that they are all as well versed as they should be, there is at least one person here who had that experience, though I believe their overall attitude got them banned). There is nothing wrong with this, but it is wrong not to give credit to the originator, whoever or whatever it was. That is the core of the problem, and still is.

I haven't seen crossfit try and use any of these methods, so they weren't taken from there. I haven't heard of anyone else using anything like this in terms of training methodology, even other gymnasts that I have met. Mats Trane can attest to this, as can Razz and Gregor. There are many different ways to build an L sit or FL, but the GB way is what was taken and rewritten as someone's own idea.

Guys, when it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it craps on your foot, you have duck poop on your foot. Don't put it in your mouth expecting to taste butterscotch. That just makes you an idiot.

Hi all,

First time posting. As an academic, this strikes a chord.

The details of plagiarism are explained clearly at http://plagiarism.org

Having read BtGB and the T-Nation article, it seems clear that the article was inspired by BtGB.

But it's not necessary to debate this. If the authors of the article have stated that they read BtGB, then they must cite it as a resource. This is covered in http://plagiarism.org/plag_article_plagiarism_faq.html, as follows:

"Be careful, however, of "accidentally" plagiarizing from sources you have read and forgotten -- if your ideas turn out to have been influenced by a source that you read but failed to cite for any reason, you could be guilty of plagiarism."

Properly citing work not only gives credit where credit is due, but also helps the audience to look at your original materials so that they may draw their own conclusions. In this case, the many readers of the T-Nation article who may want to know more would benefit from seeing the original material.

By the way, I've read other articles on T-Nation, and most of them (that I've read) are very good about either citing the studies they are referring to, or citing books such as Rippetoe's "Starting Strength" as sources of information to learn more.

Even if the authors independently invented everything themselves, proper due diligence says they should point their readers to other sources supporting their ideas. After all, someone else saying what you're saying tends to lend credence to the idea. That is why the scientific method requires independent verification.

I agree with Sslizardman on all points. I think members of this board who work in a professional capacity which require referencing and citing are familiar with conventions on plagiarism and can clearly see how the T - Nation article violates both the spirit and the form of these conventions. It is something we drum into students fairly hard at university - it is not ok to pass off someone else's ideas or data as your own. But is is ok to cite and reference them and offer your own opinion or adaption of their work.

I don't have a problem with the article being poorly written or showing bad form or their lack of expertise. Its the internet and if badly written information was disallowed there would not be much left online. However, they do have a moral and legal duty - and as Ssliz puts it, a matter of simple and basic respect - to cite the source of their ideas and method.

They could have done this in a single opening sentence. Simple, easy and effective. They chose not to, and thus Coach has every right to be upset at the result. As would I if someone had clearly borrowed from my published ideas without referencing me.

In this case i think the protocol that SHOULD have taken place is pretty clear. An author/s submits an article to T-Nation. An editor at T-Nation has a look over the article, notices its fairly clear borrowing of the writings of Coach Sommers (of which there has been much discussion and even articles from Coach appear on the website). The editor then does what any good editor will do - points out some corrections that need to be made to the piece. The authors do a small rewrite acknowledging some of their source material that they had originally failed to do and the article gets published online. The article might not be great, but the editor has done his job - to make sure there is some integrity in the process of publishing information and that basic conventions on writing and referencing are conformed to.

In the small field of training in internet publishing i imagine it makes no sense for T-nation to publish an article that infringes on another writers ideas in this manner. The authors were a bit lazy and the editor (whoever it was) dropped the ball. I've seen it before in other areas of publishing.

If i was T-nation, i'd offer an apology and tighten up editorial practices. This needs to be done to maintain their own credibility as much as it has anything to do with Coach Sommer. T-Nation does have some wonderful information but it will be defined by the quality of the articles and the integrity of their publishing processes. This also not about Coach being oversensitive. It is a clear cut case. The authors can write as crappy an article as they want - provided they acknowledge their ideas.

Hey, slizz who the heck is Yao Minyong?

If you are talking about the incredibly strong Chinese rings guy, it's Yan Mingyong (嚴明勇).

LOL Yan! Yan! Crap. Thanks The incredibly strong one, yes.

newguy5000 said:

I agree with Sslizardman on all points. I think members of this board who work in a professional capacity which require referencing and citing are familiar with conventions on plagiarism and can clearly see how the T - Nation article violates both the spirit and the form of these conventions. It is something we drum into students fairly hard at university - it is not ok to pass off someone else's ideas or data as your own. But is is ok to cite and reference them and offer your own opinion or adaption of their work.

I don't have a problem with the article being poorly written or showing bad form or their lack of expertise. Its the internet and if badly written information was disallowed there would not be much left online. However, they do have a moral and legal duty - and as Ssliz puts it, a matter of simple and basic respect - to cite the source of their ideas and method.

They could have done this in a single opening sentence. Simple, easy and effective. They chose not to, and thus Coach has every right to be upset at the result. As would I if someone had clearly borrowed from my published ideas without referencing me.

In this case i think the protocol that SHOULD have taken place is pretty clear. An author/s submits an article to T-Nation. An editor at T-Nation has a look over the article, notices its fairly clear borrowing of the writings of Coach Sommers (of which there has been much discussion and even articles from Coach appear on the website). The editor then does what any good editor will do - points out some corrections that need to be made to the piece. The authors do a small rewrite acknowledging some of their source material that they had originally failed to do and the article gets published online. The article might not be great, but the editor has done his job - to make sure there is some integrity in the process of publishing information and that basic conventions on writing and referencing are conformed to.

In the small field of training in internet publishing i imagine it makes no sense for T-nation to publish an article that infringes on another writers ideas in this manner. The authors were a bit lazy and the editor (whoever it was) dropped the ball. I've seen it before in other areas of publishing.

If i was T-nation, i'd offer an apology and tighten up editorial practices. This needs to be done to maintain their own credibility as much as it has anything to do with Coach Sommer. T-Nation does have some wonderful information but it will be defined by the quality of the articles and the integrity of their publishing processes. This also not about Coach being oversensitive. It is a clear cut case. The authors can write as crappy an article as they want - provided they acknowledge their ideas.

Couldn't put it better.

slizzardman said:

At the risk of sounding childish, Jeff makes me laugh

He's a stand up guy and has lived a life that many wish they had the balls to dream about, much less step into. I consider him a good friend, and while I am sure that his comment has stirred up a bit of controversy and understandable reactions, what he is saying is "Seriously man, open your eyes and see what is in front of you."

Perhaps he just doesn't come off well over the internet, but he's been unnecessarily rude to me before. So have you, but you apologized and it's water under the bridge. We can be best pals. Jeff never apologized. He really doesn't seem like a stand up guy in my experience, but you have more experience with him, along with Coach Sommer previously vouching for his character (to me personally), I'll still give him the benefit of the doubt.

Imagine that you have a system that you have developed over a period of 20+ years. It has become many different things and is now, finally, very polished and effective. It has been your life's work. Seriously, take some time and put this into perspective. Think back 20 years or as close as you can, depending on your age. Now take a year at a time and learn new things, scrap parts of the old training as you learn to do things better, watch your athletes go to competition and not have to complain about pains that everyone else has but your athletes do not. The other competitors think they are just acting tough, but they really feel fine. Your training methods have created relatively injury free athletes in a sport where it is normal to always have something that is hurting. You continue on, revising things until you are capable of taking a talented kid and developing the kind of ring strength and technique in a 12 year old that rivals the best of the college athletes. You have done well, and you know it.

I totally 100% empathize with that. BUT see below.

I haven't seen crossfit try and use any of these methods, so they weren't taken from there. I haven't heard of anyone else using anything like this in terms of training methodology, even other gymnasts that I have met. Mats Trane can attest to this, as can Razz and Gregor. There are many different ways to build an L sit or FL, but the GB way is what was taken and rewritten as someone's own idea.

The progressions they use for the front lever are tuck --> one leg extended --> full. This isn't Coach Sommer's method, and I have seen it elsewhere.

This is the exact progression used here: http://www.powerathletesmag.com/pages/frontlever.htm

There is no specific date on this article, but it's Issue 2 of "Power Athletes Mag" with a copyright date of 2003, one year before Coach Sommer's original Dragon Door article. The article is written by Brad Johnson.

Also, this same method appears in the Crossfit Journal in 2007. Here: http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/63 ... _Rings.pdf

The issue is not one or two elements in isolation, but their integration into a comprehensive, systematic, cohesive structure that had heretofore not existed.

Regardless the issue is now moot; I have received an email from T-nation apologizing for this unfortunate situation and they have in fact expressed an interest in further exploring how to perform Gymnastic Strength Training™ properly and with a high degree of quality.

I would like to thank everyone who contributed to this invigorating discussion; both negatively and positively. Both are necessary to a good debate just as a good meal cannot be seasoned with only a single spice.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach, I'd love to become an affiliate - keep me posted on this. I've been a walking commercial ever since I bought BtGB and some rings, and even though I can't yet do many of the 1- and 2-star exercises, I can feel myself improving and getting stronger and more flexible. I recommend your program to anyone who asks!

As for the plagiarism bit, I agree that it's certainly a grey area. I'm a professional musician, and I can tell you there's LOTS of grey where copyrights are concerned. The copyright laws are endless and constantly changing, and I'm not even sure copyright lawyers know them all. It sounds like all you wanted was some acknowledgement, which you didn't get but definitely should have. At the very least it would have generated a bunch of hits on your website, maybe drummed up some business. Not that that's necessarily what it's all about, but it would have been nice.

Coach Sommer said:

The issue is not one or two elements in isolation, but their integration into a comprehensive, systematic, cohesive structure that had heretofore not existed.

Regardless the issue is now moot; I have received an email from T-nation apologizing for this unfortunate situation and they have in fact expressed an interest in further exploring how to perform Gymnastic Strength Training™ properly and with a high degree of quality.

I would like to thank everyone who contributed to this invigorating discussion; both negatively and positively. Both are necessary to a good debate just as a good meal cannot be seasoned with only a single spice.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I didn't realize the structure was so unique and your development. It would be very interesting to also know some of the history behind it.

I extremely happy to hear of the e-mail from T-nation. They were for the most part gracious in the comments section of the post and glad to see that there was also a gracious follow through with you.

Cole Dano said:

... I didn't realize the structure was so unique and your development. It would be very interesting to also know some of the history behind it ...

This is something that is extensively outlined in the forthcoming BtGB 2nd edition.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

Regardless the issue is now moot; I have received an email from T-nation apologizing for this unfortunate situation and they have in fact expressed an interest in further exploring how to perform Gymnastic Strength Training™ properly and with a high degree of quality.

I would like to thank everyone who contributed to this invigorating discussion; both negatively and positively. Both are necessary to a good debate just as a good meal cannot be seasoned with only a single spice.

Awesome. Glad to hear it.

As one who may have contributed "negatively", I'd like to make it clear to those whom it may concern that I do in fact deeply respect and admire Coach Sommer and his work and publicly apologize for for any implicit attacks on his character I may have made while myopically probing the debate for my own selfish curiosity.

Coach Sommer said:

This is something that is extensively outlined in the forthcoming BtGB 2nd edition.

I'm interested in hearing more about this. What revisions do you have planned and do you have an ETA?

DrAlexisOlson said:

Coach Sommer wrote:

This is something that is extensively outlined in the forthcoming BtGB 2nd edition.

I'm interested in hearing more about this. What revisions do you have planned and do you have an ETA?

I am currently in the stage of having sections of the draft out with various reviewers for editing.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

RatioFitness said:

slizzardman said:

At the risk of sounding childish, Jeff makes me laugh

He's a stand up guy and has lived a life that many wish they had the balls to dream about, much less step into. I consider him a good friend, and while I am sure that his comment has stirred up a bit of controversy and understandable reactions, what he is saying is "Seriously man, open your eyes and see what is in front of you."

Perhaps he just doesn't come off well over the internet, but he's been unnecessarily rude to me before. So have you, but you apologized and it's water under the bridge. We can be best pals. Jeff never apologized. He really doesn't seem like a stand up guy in my experience, but you have more experience with him, along with Coach Sommer previously vouching for his character (to me personally), I'll still give him the benefit of the doubt.

Being rude on a forum and then getting upset when someone is rude to you? Isn't this a case of the pot calling the kettle black? .

I am honestly only surprised that it took tnation this long to post something about this. I love to read their articles daily but they're kind of like that mega uploads video site. There's enough "borrowed" material to shut them down.

I don't recall being rude, but if I was then I apologize.

Coach Sommer said:

DrAlexisOlson said:

Coach Sommer wrote:

This is something that is extensively outlined in the forthcoming BtGB 2nd edition.

I'm interested in hearing more about this. What revisions do you have planned and do you have an ETA?

I am currently in the stage of having sections of the draft out with various reviewers for editing.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

:twisted:

+1!

Coach Sommer said:

DrAlexisOlson said:

Coach Sommer wrote:

This is something that is extensively outlined in the forthcoming BtGB 2nd edition.

I'm interested in hearing more about this. What revisions do you have planned and do you have an ETA?

I am currently in the stage of having sections of the draft out with various reviewers for editing.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

do you think you will release a digital format?

Coach, I would be more than happy to serve as one of your reviewers, for all your material.