Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Sign in to follow this  
Bryce Warren

Effects Of Low Rep Session Followed By Higher Rep Session

Recommended Posts

Bryce Warren

The question basically is what's in the topic title. What will come out of training low rep max strength (we'll say in the morning), followed by higher rep more for hypertrophy in the evening? Will this slow process down in both areas? The scheduled workout routine is something along the lines of:

Day 1 - 2 Sessions

Day 2 - 1 Session

Day 3 - Rest

Day 4 - 2 Sessions

Day 5 - 1 Session

Day 6 - Rest

Day 7 - Rest

The muscles being targeted, for the sake of finding the best results can be either way, hitting the same muscle groups in both sessions, or targeting different areas each of the two sessions. Information on both muscle target set-ups would be excellent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
John Sapinoso

Working out 2 times a day is optimal. I'll hit a maximal intensity session in the am followed by an auxiliary set (higher rep, lower intensity) in the pm. For example, straddle planche push ups AM session and mechanical advantage planche push ups PM. just make sure your nutrition is on key and you're getting enough sleep. It's hell for the first 2-3 weeks but after that gains shoot up like crazy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bryce Warren

Yea I've been working out twice a day for quite some time and I love it. I was just curious as to whether you can do strength/hypertrophy in the same day without cutting down the results and slowing down strength/size gains. If this works out though that's awesome, I just want everything to flow smoothly and not kill my progress.

Mostly I'm asking for information on this because I go skating a lot since it's winter, and since the gym/skating/swimming is all covered under my membership I want to get the most out of it as I can. So I'll be doing my GB training at home, then heading off several hours later for skating followed by the gym to get some weights thrown in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ian Legrow

Low rep High intesity in the moreing and Higher rep lower intensity in the evening is a combination of strength in the moring then hypertrophy in the evening. That is what charles polquin says anyway.

Here is the article if tyou want to read it

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/Articles%20...%20ccess.aspx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bryce Warren

Link doesn't work :?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bryce Warren

Much better, thanks! What's in there is exactly what I'm doing which is good for me, don't have to switch anything. AM strength training PM hypertrophy :lol:

One other thing I'd like to know is how I could fit HIIT in here to make it most effective and not slow down any strength/size gain. Is it possible to do this instantly following my 2nd session (hypertrophy)? Only suggesting that because it'd be easiest for me since the gym I go to has an indoor track I can use right after my weight session.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ian Legrow

I honestly think you might be heaping a little too much on your plate if you do HIIT and Two a days. Two a days are very intese anyway and require the right diet and correct amount of sleep. If you do not have either of these for two a days then your work is usless (keep in mind i am not saying you specifically do not eat right or sleep right). Since i am assuming you have a correct diet and sleep right, one thing i have heard from a lot of people on this web site, is the variety of GB training we do will improve your cardio as well, without nessicarily training cardio. I have actually read several posts where people advised against training cardio if you are already doing the GB work. I might have said that wrong. Becasue Blairbob said at one point that if you have a rest day you can do about thirty minutes of biking jogging or swimming. I would highly recommend however you do not do both in the same day unless specified in the WOD or your own workout (i.e 40m slead sprint)

Hope this helps

-Ian Legrow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bryce Warren

My diet is basically perfect, and my sleeping is as well. Since I started taking 3 days off a week from training, I seem to be having problems sleeping though, I'm always awake for so long with all this energy. Then I wake up after 3-4 hours once I fall asleep with even more energy. My body is used to training a lot more than I am now. So I'm not sure where to put these in since I know I CAN handle the work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Philip Chubb
Much better, thanks! What's in there is exactly what I'm doing which is good for me, don't have to switch anything. AM strength training PM hypertrophy :lol:

One other thing I'd like to know is how I could fit HIIT in here to make it most effective and not slow down any strength/size gain. Is it possible to do this instantly following my 2nd session (hypertrophy)? Only suggesting that because it'd be easiest for me since the gym I go to has an indoor track I can use right after my weight session.

This could easily become really catabolic. If you have some BCAA then maybe it would work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bryce Warren

That was just saying when it'd be easiest for me, since there's just pure ice everywhere with snow I can't do sprints outdoors at the moment. The gym is also all the way across town so I can't go back n forth.

So when would be most beneficial if I add them in?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Joshua Naterman

Probably on the single session day, and get plenty of slow carbs that day. Spread them out around the sprints, mostly afterwards. Figure out what you are burning and replace it, at the very least.

Keep volume under control and slowly increase it, just like anything else.

As has been said, two separate sessions is quite nice. If you are smart and keep your volume fairly low you can make truly excellent gains by performing the "higher reps" lower intensity workout 6 days per week, with a single set. You need to realize that a single set 2-3x per week is all you need to maintain your strength endurance, which is what this session is all about. Single sets every day will lead to impressive increases. Don't quite hit failure.

It takes 2-3 sets of high load strength work to get an appropriate strength response, so 2 sets 3-4x per week shouldn't be problematic and should lead to excellent gains as well.

With proper nutrition you will grow like a weed and get stronger very nearly from day to day.

Everyone is doing way too much per session, at least that is what I am experiencing now. It also happens to be the general consensus of all the training manuals I have read from the pre-steroid era (early 1900's and before). Sandow plus is a great website for reading these. You'll notice that the general premise is to perform perfect movement, work out nearly every day, and never hit failure, always making the occasional small addition of additional load or reps. Add good food and you have the "secret recipe" to become superman.

It all starts with perfect movement and good nutrition, both practiced on a daily basis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alvaro Antolinez

Slizz what old books do you recommend (at least as curiosities or because they are current)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Philip Chubb

Has anyone been keeping up with the hypertrophy boot camp by Poliquin. Three training sessions a day. It's awesome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
John Sapinoso

Double days and additional HIIT can be done daily. I've been doing that plus two hours of hand-balancing and additional skill work for the past 8 weeks and have never been stronger or leaner.

Then again, special circumstances had allowed me to sleep for 10-11 hours a day, get 2 hour naps midday, consume about 400 grams of protein per day (well over a kilo of grass fed per day plus additonal whey) have proper supplementation, and practically zero stress...

I would do sprint / squat tabatas after auxiliary leg pm sessions and floreio style metcons on upper body days. I slept like a rock though, if you're having trouble sleeping there's a problem. It seems as though you have "tired and wired" syndrome which is linked to cortisol and over-stressing the CNS. In order to combat this I alkanized immediately PWO and throughout the day with lots of citrus. It also helps if you gradually increase your work capacity and deload volume on a calculated basis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Philip Chubb

Yes I do too. But the question is would that be good for hypertrophy. I'm not sure.

That sounds like the same here! PWO nap, grass fed beef, and no stress. I am going to try the citrus because I am having issues sleeping too. Although magnesium and melatonin are helping that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Joshua Naterman
Slizz what old books do you recommend (at least as curiosities or because they are current)?

Honestly, pretty much all of them. Arthur Sampson's book is excellent, Super Strength (from around 1911) is also extremely fantastic. Eugene Sandow's book is also great. You have to get used to the language in some of them, it IS from a different time.

They happen to actually be extremely advanced programs, in the sense that they actually work and work extremely well. It is quite amazing to me that there is so much crap going on today.

Tsoon: Hahaha, well... your protein intake has a lot less to do with that than the sleep :) You are eating far more than your body can process as protein, but it is turning the rest to sugar. Not a healthy long term practice at those levels, but apparently bad results won't show up for 20-30+ years.

Also, taking a slow and steady approach to reaching what you are doing is definitely a key ingredient to success. People don't seem to realize that you can't just do that in 2 months and expect everything to be ok.

You can train (seriously train) at least 5x per day with the appropriate protocols in place if you actually want to grow to your maximum potential. I have experimented with 12x per day and hit neural fatigue (interesting experience) after 2 days but also put on 1-1.5 lb of muscle by the 4th day, and that is including 2 days of total rest. Weight went up, skin folds went down about 1mm all around.

3x per day is easy if you know exactly what to do. I probably don't do that like Poliquin does, and I am not ready to share details on my methods.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Philip Chubb

Interesting. I'm on three a day as well but I didn't realize it would still be easy to put on muscle like that. I need someone to try it on. I'm not trying to get bigger.

Can these negative effects of so much protein being converted to sugar be avoided just by dropping out ketosis occasionally?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Joshua Naterman

What you have to realize is that even in ketosis your body is forming at LEAST 100g of carbohydrates via gluconeogenesis, that is what the body is capable of PRIOR to low carb adaptations according to the literature I am familiar with (studies on pub med regarding gluconeogenesis rates). I am not aware of any good studies, or any bad ones for that matter, that have looked at how that rate changes with a very low carb or ketogenic diet. It is a safe bet to say that it goes up, because our bodies NEED glucose. There's a good reason why, it IS what our brains run off of and it IS what our cells run off of as a base fuel. Ketone bodies can be used as a partial substitute, as happens in ketosis, but there are still plenty of carbs being made.

My whole point here is this: Why the hell would you ever want to try and deprive your body of something that it has to have, something that it will simply make on its own out of whatever it has available? That's why you will lose muscle mass RAPIDLY if you are on a fat-only diet or any other protein-deprived diet. Unsustainable, lean mass gets sacrificed for protein turnover and essential glucose. Going to the other extreme and eating way more protein than the human body can use as protein is both expensive monetarily and puts way too much stress on internal organs when performed for long periods of time. I do think that there is a transient usefulness for this sort of diet, especially when attempting to re-condition a body that is diabetic or very close to it, but maintaining such a high protein diet is a pretty bad idea.

Not only that, you end up producing way more bile acids to deal with all the fats, which is taxing on the gall bladder and liver, and you also have the kidneys dealing with a huge amount of nitrogenous waste. Short term this doesn't cause any noticeable problem in most people, but it can and does lead to premature organ failure when you do something like this for long periods of time like 20-30 years.

You don't need a TON of carbs, necessarily, but you need to give your body what you burn both through exercise and through resting metabolism. No need to have more than that.

This, to me, is basic common sense. The carbs should be plant sources, of course.

In the end, the visible results will be similar and it is possible that performance may also be similar if enough glycogen is synthesized from the excess protein. However, the long term health effects are remarkably different and in my opinion are a very good reason to keep protein right around the "human anabolic maximum" of around 1.5g per kg bodyweight. Spread that evenly through the day, by the hour if possible for absolute best results, and you will almost certainly discover that you don't need anywhere near the high levels that you think you need. I am finding that a more true upper limit is around 10g per hour, which translates to quite a bit more than 1.5g/kg but still is only 160-180g per day. That's the peak absorption rate of protein in the gut regardless of source... it doesn't get higher than that. 10.4g per hour is the fastest absorption rate that can be used as protein, and that's from whey. Pork tenderloin has a similar profile but is a far inferior protein and thus should not be compared to the whey.

Anyhow, that is my opinion both from personal experience and from my current understanding of human physiology and biochemistry. The personal experience came from me applying the latter, and the results are quite impressive especially considering that I'm not doing very much physical work at all. Probably less than almost everyone here. Stupid rehab... :P Or... is it stupid? Ah, a different thread soon to come...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Joshua Naterman

Wow, yes it does. They write this very well. Didn't realize that was out there, nice find!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oldrich Polreich

Excellent reading once again, thanks all

Just one question: How does FSP's fit into this "Strenght PM, Reps AM" concept? I understand that i want to do a strenght work (adv. tuck PL) in my strenght workout, but what about "auxiliary" for reps? Doing longer holds of easier variant is probably a bad idea (i read the "Problems with planche" thread), but what about PL leans, L-sit or other prereqs? Or should i skip static's entirely for afternoon workout?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Joshua Naterman

I wouldn't do the statics twice in one day.

I'd do strength statics once or twice a week, certainly only once at first, and do them 3-4 times per week for endurance. Obviously this would be the prerequisites until they are completed. For planche, 30-60s leans are appropriate but you need to be able to feel it in your lats and traps as you start leaning more forward or you are wasting your time because you are ingraining an activation pattern that will not support a full planche, meaning that at some point you will have to spend a fair amount of time re-learning the technique and building overlooked areas of strength deficiency. It's just not the best use of time in my book, so make sure you are doing things right. Activating the spinal muscles from the base of the skull all the way down to the hips is what will make it easy for this to occur.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Eddie Stelling

Slizz, I know this is the wrong thread to be elaborating on diet; however, this is great information for me as I am in the same boat as you right now. 5 wks out from my shoulder surgery & trying to lean out with very little activity. What I have been doing is cutting down my caloric intake alot...very small portions of only meat and veggies. But I can tell I'm losing some muscle. But, what you are saying is to maintain 1.5g of protein/BW & 100g of carbs (plant source), meaning to stop worrying about calories and set the diet up to meet these goals.

- Is there a certain amount of fat the body needs a day or should I just keep the fat count as low as possible?

- When I can pick up the activity, would the carb intake go up or would I just adjust when I eat so the majority of my carb intake is before and after activity?

Remember, I am literally only doing my shoulder rehab, stretching my legs, and just started to walk for cardio just a bit. Thanks for your info and sorry to high jack the thread! I had this figured out when I was working out, but got way lost when I couldn't do anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Joshua Naterman
Slizz, I know this is the wrong thread to be elaborating on diet; however, this is great information for me as I am in the same boat as you right now. 5 wks out from my shoulder surgery & trying to lean out with very little activity. What I have been doing is cutting down my caloric intake alot...very small portions of only meat and veggies. But I can tell I'm losing some muscle. But, what you are saying is to maintain 1.5g of protein/BW & 100g of carbs (plant source), meaning to stop worrying about calories and set the diet up to meet these goals.

- Is there a certain amount of fat the body needs a day or should I just keep the fat count as low as possible?

- When I can pick up the activity, would the carb intake go up or would I just adjust when I eat so the majority of my carb intake is before and after activity?

Remember, I am literally only doing my shoulder rehab, stretching my legs, and just started to walk for cardio just a bit. Thanks for your info and sorry to high jack the thread! I had this figured out when I was working out, but got way lost when I couldn't do anything.

You do not technically need fat. Yes, there are two EFAs but they exist in appropriate amounts within greens, which is why it's important to eat your greens (one among many reasons). Fat helps absorb 4 vitamins in particular, so cooking your veggies with some butter or olive oil is a great idea. That will give everything you need all by itself.

Where did 100g come from? You need to evaluate your current metabolism, take 30% of that, and then divide by 4 to get the absolute minimum baseline g of carbs you need. It's going to be more than 100g, that is why you are losing muscle. You also need to spread the protein as evenly as possible throughout the day, staying pretty much right at the anabolic maximum of 1.5-1.8g per kg bw in terms of total protein per day.

Don't worry specifically about calories. Just get your protein and your carbs, eat them together, and spread that as evenly as possible throughout the day.

I am constantly getting comments about how good I am looking, I will take pics today and put them up as "proof."

If you need more advice make a new thread in Nutrition, I'll see it when I get home this evening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×

Important Information

Please review our Privacy Policy at Privacy Policy before using the forums.