Which athletes are the strongest?

[RatioFitness]

Does anyone know of any resources where you can find information about the amount of muscle forces generated by various muscle groups during different exercises?

[Joshua Naterman]

That's going to be tough to find, but there is good data on Olympic lifters and the force generated during a second pull. It is insane, there was an estimate that the world record clean and jerk would have required 1800+kg of tension to be generated during the most powerful part of the pull.

There is also good data for the forces generated and absorbed during tumbling runs at the Olympic Training Center, which is quite a lot as well. A good 10x body weight at minimum I believe, but Coach knows more of the details for that.

Lebron James generates something like 710 lbs of lift during a vertical jump, as one example. There are a lot of things out there but you aren't going to find them in just one or two sources, you're really going to have to sift through the Interwebs!

[RatioFitness]

That's going to be tough to find, but there is good data on Olympic lifters and the force generated during a second pull. It is insane, there was an estimate that the world record clean and jerk would have required 1800+kg of tension to be generated during the most powerful part of the pull.

There is also good data for the forces generated and absorbed during tumbling runs at the Olympic Training Center, which is quite a lot as well. A good 10x body weight at minimum I believe, but Coach knows more of the details for that.

Lebron James generates something like 710 lbs of lift during a vertical jump, as one example. There are a lot of things out there but you aren't going to find them in just one or two sources, you're really going to have to sift through the Interwebs!

I found some stuff from a textbook, and it estimates that the pecs and lats must generate over 18x the athletes body weight during an iron cross.

http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/d ... e_ch08.pdf

If an olympic lifter was doing 1800kg's and weighed 100kg that would be 18x bodyweight. However, that is the legs, whereas the gymnast is doing the same with the arms!!!!!!!!!

I'll keep looking.

[Joshua Naterman]

Holy crap! That is nuts!

[RatioFitness]

Of course the iron cross isn't even the hardest.

But then Olympic weightlifting wouldn't represent the highest forces, since the highest forces can be generated at slow speeds. We should look to powerlifting.

[Joshua Naterman]

Instantaneous loads will always be highest in some sort of full-body rebound, but powerlifting probably won't have the highest forces.

Highly mechanically advantaged positions + slow speed = lower force generated by muscles. It has been demonstrated fairly solidly that people can generate higher peak forces during explosive movements than they can during a max effort strength 1RM like a powerlifting competitor would perform. Of course the difference isn't huge I don't think, something like 10% for squats. I don't know if there is data for anything else, squats are an easy one.

[RatioFitness]

I thought that the muscles could generate higher forces in slower movements because there is not enough time to reach maximum force output during explosive movements.

[Uzeeh]

I remember that the highest power of all athletes is found in shot putters.

A friend of mine also always references that a certain study compared muscle group forces between athletes and found that rock climbers have the most activity in their back/forearms.

[Joshua Naterman]

I thought that the muscles could generate higher forces in slower movements because there is not enough time to reach maximum force output during explosive movements.

Higher amounts of motor recruitment but not velocity or acceleration, so most likely a higher (perhaps significantly so) average force but not a higher peak force with slow movements. Hence the greater hypertrophy. Much higher total time under tension with that high average force.

Force = mass times acceleration, so if mass is 25% of max but peak acceleration is 5x the velocity of a max effort then peak force generated during that 25% explosive effort is about 25% higher than the peak force generated during a max effort.

400kg lifted 1m with a peak acceleration of 1m/s per second = 400 newtons peak force and 400 joules of energy in a 1m lift

100kg lifted 1m with a peak acceleration of 5m/s per second = 500 newtons peak force and 500 joules of energy in a 1m lift

the 100kg effort generates a higher force but for a much shorter period of time.

[Cole Dano]

p (momentum) = mv

f = ma

or

f = (delta)p / (delta)t = m (delta)v /(delta)t

[Joshua Naterman]

F= ma

P(momentum)=mv

owned. That's what I meant lol!

force = rate of change of momentum.

[RatioFitness]

Is f=ma the right way to think about it, though? That's the amount of force applied to the outside world, whereas I am talking about the tension in the muscles.

According to f=ma, the iron cross involves no force!

[Joshua Naterman]

That's not true, we are always experiencing the acceleration of earth's gravity. Even in a static position, we have our mass X 9.8m/s per second. Therefore, just standing on our toes involves a total force of 980 newtons exerted constantly for a 100kg person such as myself (well, almost 100kg lol! It makes for easy math.) Then you have to calculate mechanical disadvantage due to the difference between the heel, the fulcrum of the ankles, and the metatarsal heads where the force is centered. Assuming a 4:! mechanical disadvantage, which is on the low end, that would be 3920 newtons of force produced by the calves just to stand. Per leg that would be 1960 newtons, which has been substantiated by calculation and, I believe, intramuscular force sensors showing that each calf produces something like a peak force of 3400 newtons with each step you take while walking. Obviously that differs from person to person based on foot size and body weight.

What I was describing are forces acting on the body as a whole. There are much more complex measurements to be take in order to isolate muscle groups, but everything will always be a function of mechanics in the end. The overall energy needed to produce movement can be calculated based on the total mass moving against the net acceleration, with peak external forces corresponding to peak external net acceleration. Whether those represent the same moment of peak forces inside each muscle will be based on the mechanical disadvantage of each muscle relative to the external force produced and the speed of movement, but most likely they will be very closely centered on each other.

Biomechanics are deceptively simple... there are many factors but the physics involved are fairly basic. It's all lever arms (includes angles relative to force applied as well as length), attachment points, instantaneous acceleration, and location of fulcrums.

[Joshua Naterman]

Our body tissues are capable of withstanding enormous forces... Think about bowstrings for a second. Originally they were made from tendons and were fairly thin, yet could easily bend a 200+ lb draw strength bow. Think about how much force that is, and consider that those strings were about 1/8 of an inch thick. Now think about your calves, how thick your achilles tendons are, and how much more volume of connective tissue they have. It makes plenty of sense that we can handle enormous static tension levels like this without a problem.

As for the Iron cross, someone my size would have 980 newtons to suspend and in a cross, based on the length of my arms and the muscle attachment sites for the pecs and lats, they would indeed share an absolutely enormous amount of weight. Now, it all happens to be distributed between the biceps, long head of the triceps, coracobrachialis, pecs, lats, teres major, teres minor, infraspinatus, subscapularis, deltoids, and anything else I missed that attaches the upper arm directly to the scapula or rib cage.

There is probably a 4 to 5:1 disadvantage, so the force involved is something like 4500 newtons per arm or something crazy like that. Distributed between the various muscles, and based on the angles of pull, it makes sense that the forces involved in each of the muscles are rather insanely large!

The disadvantage might be much larger, I was just making estimates with my hands to approximate these disadvantages.

[Cole Dano]

Yes Slizz is right, in our daily life there are many fundamental forces of nature that are constantly exerting forces on us.

The electro-magnestic force does much more than let us make phone calls on smart phones and use the internet. It it the force that holds us together at the molecular level and without it it would be impossible to hold anything all matter would simply be transparent.

The force of gravity is much more conspicuous. It's why apples fall from trees rather than just float there. It's what we use for the resistance of most of our strength training (rubber cables are an exception - that's the EM force that holds the molecular bonds of the rubber and allow it to stretch the way it does.)

Weight is a convient way of expressing the fact that gravity is always acting on a mass. Weight is just the mass multiplied by the force of gravity. That's why a person weighs less on a high mountain, and nearly nothing in orbit around the earth, the effect of the gravitational force is less, yet the mass remains the same.

So it is indeed 100% possible for an object to not be moving yet have forces acting on it, the forces simply have to balance each other out to get a net result of zero, and that's exactly what a static hold is.

When the force is more than the object can withstand by generating it's own counterforce it moves, or breaks. This is why i fall in a full lay front lever and stay in a tuck.

This is why if i push on a wall nothing happens, but if a bulldozer does it falls over. Force is exerted, but in one case it's not strong enough to do anything in the other it is. It all goes back to Newton's other famous statement - For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

[RatioFitness]

Yeah, I needed to brush up on my physics for minute. It's been a while. I'm mostly just mixed up on my concepts and how they relate to the equations and terminology - I of course know that the force of gravity is always acting on us (I'm one of the stupidest people I know but I'm not that stupid).

In the example of an iron cross (or person standing still), there are forces acting on the body, but there are zero net forces since the body is not moving (the system is balanced which means zero net forces).

[RatioFitness]

Ok, so now my question is this:

If the Olympic weightlifter is exerting more force then why would don't they have max lifts greater than the powerlifters?

[Nic Branson]

F = MA

That A is the difference between powerlifting and Olympic lifting. Two different types of strength development as well, the neural input is quite different.

[Joshua Naterman]

Exactly, the olympic lifters are training the fastest motor units to a much higher degree than powerlifters are.

Don't kid yourself either, there are a lot of heavyweights in the O-lifting department who are routinely squatting 700+ for reps without suits. There is simply no need for an O-lifter to go beyond a certain weight because they are not using it in the competitive lifts and training heavier than absolutely necessary would make them too slow to perform their absolute best in O-lifting events. They would literally be training their body to move slowly.

You should see how fast some of them do these heavy squat reps, it's pretty crazy but also very similar to the performance of a competition O-lift.

I can virtually guarantee that any weight that an O-lifter and powerlifter can both lift, the O-lifter will move that weight faster over the same distance. Higher peak force. Especially in a deadlift, as that's where the real speed is during an O-lift.

[RatioFitness]

Higher peak force. Especially in a deadlift, as that's where the real speed is during an O-lift.

This is the part I can't wrap my head around.

If the Olympic lifter is generating a higher peak force during his lower weight deadlift, then why can't he pull the same weight off the floor that the powerlifter can?

I understand that the olympic lifter will generate greater peak POWER, but I don't understand how he is generating greater peak force if his max deadlift is lower than the powerlifter. Shouldn't the athlete with the highest peak force output also have the highest max lift?

[Cole Dano]

That's a good question, i don't know squat about the world of competitive lifting to want to venture a serious answer.

I've been reading Zatsiorsky and he makes a big point that the higher the velocity the lower the force and am curious to know if that applies here, it seems like it should, but may be missing something.

On the surface at least it sure looks like one is generating more force the other more power.

From there i personally will choose to avoid getting into any who's stronger arguments, at the elite levels they are simply different disciplines working at the limits of raw and athletic strength and no matter what there has to be an element of specificity that comes into play.

[Nic Branson]

Force diminishes as velocity increases. As the speed of the object being lifted increases the amount of force being imparted to it decreases also remember the time factor. When the lift completes faster the athlete has less time to impart force to the object. Not the cleanest definition but a simple one.

Power does NOT equal Force.

P = FV

In the world of competitive lifting you would only be comparing the lifts of elite specialized lifters. Technique aside both are strong and both are powerful until compared against each other.

As for higher max lift, the motor neuron recruitment, patterning of said recruitment and thresholds swell as their ability to sustain their contraction are all a part of that. Max level power lifts are closer in nature to isometric lifts, even with intent to be fast the body is moving slowly and need to maintain the lift for a much longer period of time. The olympic lifter is just the opposite, for them it is all about explosive starting strength. There have been some studies on fiber typing using muscle biopsies which have shown that the nuclei on an elite O'lifter were more ellipse in shape then normal. Why exactly we don't know, but the body adapts in way we are far from understanding.

Point being Strongest is not a question. Strongest at what? It's like the functional fitness craze. Define the function first.

[RatioFitness]

Force diminishes as velocity increases. As the speed of the object being lifted increases the amount of force being imparted to it decreases also remember the time factor. When the lift completes faster the athlete has less time to impart force to the object.

That's what I said but I was told that's not correct.

Point being Strongest is not a question. Strongest at what? It's like the functional fitness craze. Define the function first.

I want to know who's muscle exert the highest muscle forces. Any exercise. Any movement. Doesn't matter.

[Cole Dano]

The any movement any exercise part is where your getting tripped up. It's like comparing apples and oranges at that point. The last post and mine before that were saying essentially the same thing.

The guy who does activity x at a high level will always be best at that. A powerlifter can't throw a baseball with as much force as a professional pitcher even though that force is small compared to what a powerlifter is capable of generating, it doesn't transfer like that.

Even in the case of oly lifter vs power lifter you can't make a real comparison. However, if you choose deadlift, squat, clean etc you can. You could choose who's best over all at all the things both powerlifters do and oly lifters. Clearly powerlifters are better and powerlifting and visa versa, but who's better at both averaging the results out. I don't know that, maybe someone here has an idea.

Or you could choose all sporting activities and see who's best overall, i suspect if you did that a gymnast would come out on top.

[RatioFitness]

A powerlifter can't throw a baseball with as much force as a professional pitcher even though that force is small compared to what a powerlifter is capable of generating, it doesn't transfer like that.

The baseball pitchers force will be less when throwing a baseball than the powerlifters when doing a deadlift. Therefore, according to my contest, the powerlifter wins.

Force is an objective number, so there is no problem with comparisons. I want to know what exercises/movements result in the highest force production. Whatever athlete does that exercise the most will probably be the best at it. They will be the "strongest" athletes of all, according to what I am asking.