One-arm Chin-up Negatives

[305pelusa]

Hello everyone!

In BtGB, Coach says one preliminary step to HePUs are just doing negatives (probably for the same 3-5x3-5 scheme, obviously with the negative being far slower this time to make up for the lack of positive).

I can do a One-arm Chin-up, but naturally, only one per hand. I want to build consistency at stringing reps. So I was thinking about using, as one of my FBEs once a week (I'm following a Killroy template), One-arm Chin-up negatives.

Is this a good idea, or have people found that only doing negatives and few concentrics (I will still get concentrics, but in other planes like horizontal from rows) is a bad idea??

Thanks!

[Ian Legrow]

Doing one armed negatives are very beneficial, not only to help with more one armed chin-ups but also with weighted chin ups. Obviously you will not be able to lower very slow at first, buting it seems to me through my constant studying on this web site (cause lord knows when i am slow at work i have nothing else to do hahah) and personal experience, that negatives with do nothing but positive things to any specific exercise that is directly linked to it. Example: Handstand press: I can't do one yet, but a lot of threads on hear people asked how to get there form standing and a lot of people told them to lower as slow as possible from a Handstand.

A personal experience for me was in fact quite exhilarating. For my steady state cycle that ends on monday i have been doing 3x3 3s Neg HeSPU. Before i did them, when starting in a headstand position i could not push myself up to a HS against the wall, the few times i did it was a struggle and probably rather funny looking. I am not a strong looking individual (6'0 22years old and 134lbs) but when i tried these for kicks 7 days ago i did three reps easily! one for myself then i brought my wife in and showed her two more reps. And i have found th same to be tru with NLC's.

I am not a pro, but in my experience, with any exercise doing a negative that directly links to it is nothing but beneficial.

hope this helps

-Ian

[305pelusa]

Doing one armed negatives are very beneficial, not only to help with more one armed chin-ups but also with weighted chin ups. Obviously you will not be able to lower very slow at first, buting it seems to me through my constant studying on this web site (cause lord knows when i am slow at work i have nothing else to do hahah) and personal experience, that negatives with do nothing but positive things to any specific exercise that is directly linked to it. Example: Handstand press: I can't do one yet, but a lot of threads on hear people asked how to get there form standing and a lot of people told them to lower as slow as possible from a Handstand.

A personal experience for me was in fact quite exhilarating. For my steady state cycle that ends on monday i have been doing 3x3 3s Neg HeSPU. Before i did them, when starting in a headstand position i could not push myself up to a HS against the wall, the few times i did it was a struggle and probably rather funny looking. I am not a strong looking individual (6'0 22years old and 134lbs) but when i tried these for kicks 7 days ago i did three reps easily! one for myself then i brought my wife in and showed her two more reps. And i have found th same to be tru with NLC's.

I am not a pro, but in my experience, with any exercise doing a negative that directly links to it is nothing but beneficial.

hope this helps

-Ian

Thank you!

I can definitely go very slow with them. I can't manage nearly enough volume with One-arm Chin-ups, but with Negatives, I'd be able to do the 3-5x3-5 sweet spot, hence, my thinking.

But yeah, I can definitely do reps of 10 secs of lowering. I think I'll give it a try

[viewty]

You can make the negatives harder in other ways that just slowing - bring yourself to a complete stop at various points through the movement (imagine splitting the movement from top to bottom into 5 parts - at each part completely stop).

This builds up at arm completely bent, at 45 deg acute, 90deg, 45 obtuse and almost straight. (I find the almost straight by far the hardest!)

Another variation is to add a slight concentric movement - even if it's barely an inch - then continue the negative to the next 5th.

Just different ways to bring on more pain! Keep up the good work.

[305pelusa]

You can make the negatives harder in other ways that just slowing - bring yourself to a complete stop at various points through the movement (imagine splitting the movement from top to bottom into 5 parts - at each part completely stop).

This builds up at arm completely bent, at 45 deg acute, 90deg, 45 obtuse and almost straight. (I find the almost straight by far the hardest!)

Another variation is to add a slight concentric movement - even if it's barely an inch - then continue the negative to the next 5th.

Just different ways to bring on more pain! Keep up the good work.

I did the first "try" yesterday with them. I did 5 sets of 2 Negatives per side, each a 6 sec descent.

My goal is to work up to 5x3 negatives per side with a 6 sec descent (so that's 18 secs of work per set, right where the max strength duration is... the way I understand it, if the set takes longer than 20 secs, it starts targeting hypertrophy more and max strength less). THEN, I'll start making each individual rep more difficult with various isometric holds.

What I'm thinking is 2 secs at the top (getting "set-up"), one of 5 secs at the middle, one of 5 secs right before lock-out, and then a couple of secs with straight arm. 5x2 of those would be my eventual goal.

After that, if I'm happy with Negatives, I could start weighting them down.

[Lucas Serur]

Not that I'm nearly close to a OAC negative, but be wary of OAC volume. Jim Bathurst (from beastskills.com) and Steven Low (braindx here) advise 2 to 3 sets of 2 to 3 reps of OAC negatives to prevent overuse injuries, e.g. tennis elbow.

[305pelusa]

Not that I'm nearly close to a OAC negative, but be wary of OAC volume. Jim Bathurst (from beastskills.com) and Steven Low (braindx here) advise 2 to 3 sets of 2 to 3 reps of OAC negatives to prevent overuse injuries, e.g. tennis elbow.

True, true! I remember like 5 months back when I start using Negatives, they were pretty tough. So for the next 5 months, I used Pulley-assisted One-arm Chins. Naturally, negatives are far more damaging, but I think I'm making up for it by doing them once a week with a Killroy template.

Additionally, I weigh far less than either of them (just 130 lbs!), which is awesome for Calisthenics.

I don't plan to get injured (who does?), so I'll keep it in mind! Thanks for the observation! Using a SSC is probably the safest way to increase the volume while minimizing injury.

[John Sapinoso]

Jim Bathurst (from beastskills.com) and Steven Low (braindx here) advise 2 to 3 sets of 2 to 3 reps of OAC negatives to prevent overuse injuries, e.g. tennis elbow.

Nonsense, with the correct prep this is not an issue.

[Coach Sommer]

divingpeanut wrote:

Jim Bathurst (from beastskills.com) and Steven Low (braindx here) advise 2 to 3 sets of 2 to 3 reps of OAC negatives to prevent overuse injuries, e.g. tennis elbow.

tsoonami wrote:

Nonsense, with the correct prep this is not an issue.

The problem is that both of them took that set/rep protocol from a OAC training essay of mine without understanding either the correct progressions or the joint prep necessary to support this type of training.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[RatioFitness]

divingpeanut wrote:

Jim Bathurst (from beastskills.com) and Steven Low (braindx here) advise 2 to 3 sets of 2 to 3 reps of OAC negatives to prevent overuse injuries, e.g. tennis elbow.

tsoonami wrote:

Nonsense, with the correct prep this is not an issue.

The problem is that both of them took that set/rep protocol from a OAC training essay of mine without understanding either the correct progressions or the joint prep necessary to support this type of training.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Which essay was that?

[anhkun]

i prefer doing assisted one arm chins followed by a slow eccentric motion, using rings i have one lower than the other for assistance and keep lowering the assistance ring over time. got me my one arm chins in 2months.

[Blairbob]

http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=170&highlight=

[Coach Sommer]

Here are the links to my original OAC essay(s) written in the summer of 2004:

June 14, 2004 on dragondoor.com

06-14-2004 10:32 AM #5 Coach Sommer

Senior Member

Posts

264

one arm chin carryover to other things?

Dougey,

I accomplished my best weighted pull-up ever, by not training weighted pull-ups but by training one arm pull-ups. Five days a week I did 2 sets of 2-3 reps of assisted one arm pullups in addition to more conventional gymnastics type conditioning. During this time, I did no weighted pull-ups or in fact any other pull-ups at all.

After about two months, I tested my weighted pull-ups and did one rep with 75lbs + bodyweight. This was despite having been stuck at 55lbs + bodyweight for years. In addition, I also cranked out an easy set of 19 pull-ups just playing around with my athletes. For me personally, training one arm pull-ups had a great deal of athletic carryover.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

OlympicBodies@aol.com

June 15, 2004 on dragondoor.com

06-15-2004 09:54 AM #2 Coach Sommer

Senior Member

Posts

264

question for Coach Sommer and/or Pavel

Emile,

I wasn't training to increase numbers in my one arm pull-ups (OAPU), but simply training to increase my maximim strength in this movement. Due to the unexpected benefits of training OAPUs combined my other gymnastics conditioning, afterwards I was able to set a new personal record in the two arm weighted pull-up.

The format I was using isn't my own, but is simply the Pavel's Power to the People format applied to another exercise.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

OlympicBodies@aol.com

http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/artic ... icleid=229

August 8, 2004 on dragondoor.com

08-09-2004 02:45 PM #3 Coach Sommer

Senior Member

Posts

264

Coach Sommer et al. - How should I do lock-offs?

Ross,

Good question. Mine was not a true one arm lock-off, but a partial one arm lock-off as my non-working arm was providing some assistance.

The way that I trained my one arm chins was to position myself so that I had one hand on the bar and one hand on the side support post. As my strength increased, I simply moved my spotting arm further down the side support post.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Joshua Naterman]

What Coach is trying to get across is that you need to scale into your work slowly and progressively. Don't rush, and don't try to work on full weight OAC negatives all the time.

For the OP, it is important to understand that while negatives are sometimes a necessary part of learning certain skills a program focusing on negatives much more than concentrics will not have as good of an effect in general. There are possibly some outliers that have had separate experiences, but in general these negatives are a stepping stone towards being able to perform consecutive isometrics, followed by true concentric motions. Once you can perform the concentric you are best off performing your singles 1-2 times per week to maintain your strength and to use the assistance technique that Coach describes to perform your actual volume training.

You should know, which is why I am sharing this, that it takes 2-3 sets of strength work once or twice a week to maintain strength gains. That's it. 2-3 singles will easily maintain your OAC while you spend the bulk of your training on higher volume assisted OAC. That is going to be your golden ticket to multiple reps. Over time you will find that you feel like you can do 1.5 reps when you do your singles, so you'll do one full concentric and then lower down halfway, pull back up, and lower all the way down. A while after that you'll be able to do 2 full reps, and so on. It takes time as this is an extreme feat of strength, and you should definitely be proud of your single OAC. Having multiple reps is extremely impressive and unusual, as most of us have probably noticed. It can be done, but much like an iron cross it is not a short term goal.

[RatioFitness]

Thanks for those, Coach!!!

[305pelusa]

What Coach is trying to get across is that you need to scale into your work slowly and progressively. Don't rush, and don't try to work on full weight OAC negatives all the time.

For the OP, it is important to understand that while negatives are sometimes a necessary part of learning certain skills a program focusing on negatives much more than concentrics will not have as good of an effect in general. There are possibly some outliers that have had separate experiences, but in general these negatives are a stepping stone towards being able to perform consecutive isometrics, followed by true concentric motions. Once you can perform the concentric you are best off performing your singles 1-2 times per week to maintain your strength and to use the assistance technique that Coach describes to perform your actual volume training.

You should know, which is why I am sharing this, that it takes 2-3 sets of strength work once or twice a week to maintain strength gains. That's it. 2-3 singles will easily maintain your OAC while you spend the bulk of your training on higher volume assisted OAC. That is going to be your golden ticket to multiple reps. Over time you will find that you feel like you can do 1.5 reps when you do your singles, so you'll do one full concentric and then lower down halfway, pull back up, and lower all the way down. A while after that you'll be able to do 2 full reps, and so on. It takes time as this is an extreme feat of strength, and you should definitely be proud of your single OAC. Having multiple reps is extremely impressive and unusual, as most of us have probably noticed. It can be done, but much like an iron cross it is not a short term goal.

The only problem I have with the OAC is that I'm unable to start the rep totally hanging with a straight arm. What I do is start with a bent arm, lower to a straight arm, and THEN pull (this mini-negative before allows me to get some more tension in my muscles for the rep).

So I'll be using Negatives specifically to build up my strength to do a complete rep without that mini-negative before. Once I get that, I'll definitely add concentric-assisted work.

Thank you for the awesome help guys! Couldn't have asked for more

[Joshua Naterman]

Ah, you are using stretch reflex. I highly recommend that you keep doing that on at least one of your singles, but if you want to build a true pull from straight arm you are not going to get it with negatives I don't think.

You have to realize that during a negative you're only using about half the motor units you normally activate during a concentric contraction. That means you are actually training fewer muscle fibers, which is why a literal plethora of studies have shown negative-focused strength programs do not provide significant gains compared to using both concentric and eccentric.

I will make the suggestion that you start with a straight arm dead hang and either use an elastic band with slight stretch on it or a puley and some weight (or just your off hand, as Coach does... works just as well) for assistance. If you don't train concentrically right from the bottom you are going to have a very hard time building strength there.

I am not suggesting that the eccentric motion is irrelevant, I am simply saying that FOCUSING on it will not work well for you, for the reasons stated above both in this post and in the thread in general.

[305pelusa]

Ah, you are using stretch reflex. I highly recommend that you keep doing that on at least one of your singles, but if you want to build a true pull from straight arm you are not going to get it with negatives I don't think.

You have to realize that during a negative you're only using about half the motor units you normally activate during a concentric contraction. That means you are actually training fewer muscle fibers, which is why a literal plethora of studies have shown negative-focused strength programs do not provide significant gains compared to using both concentric and eccentric.

I will make the suggestion that you start with a straight arm dead hang and either use an elastic band with slight stretch on it or a puley and some weight (or just your off hand, as Coach does... works just as well) for assistance. If you don't train concentrically right from the bottom you are going to have a very hard time building strength there.

I am not suggesting that the eccentric motion is irrelevant, I am simply saying that FOCUSING on it will not work well for you, for the reasons stated above both in this post and in the thread in general.

Indeed. That's the point of that mini-negative.

And I did use the Puley-assisting method for about 5 months. That's how I built the strength to do a OAC.

However, I found that with a OAC, your body is pretty much centered over your working hand. But with the pulley, it naturally shifts a bit towards the assisting side. So once I built the strength to do one, I decided it would only keep reinforcing bad technique (not to mention that it takes away the element of controlling the twist, which is VITAL towards doing a OAC).

So I feel like my strength is up to par, but perhaps my technique (a.k.a groove) is a bit rusty because I don't do unnassisted reps that often.

Hence, I wanted to add Negatives once a week in my Killroy template to practice the reps (especially at the bottom, where keeping your body squared forward is very difficult) slowly and controlled, and in addition to that, do OAC singles 4-5 days a week right before my workout (with the mini-negative before).

I could take the negatives out and add the Pulley-assisted reps back in, but I've already worked up to 2 kgs of assistance (bare in mind there's quite a bit of friction in my pulley) and felt that what I needed to improve on was the actual groove of the exercise, and not the strength required for it.

Does that make any sense? Like I said, I can add the Pulley reps back in, but I wanted you to get my reasoning behind taking them out in the first place

[Joshua Naterman]

That makes some sense, but to my way of thinking that means you need to move the pulley to right next to your hand. I did that, and it makes a huge difference. Much harder and much more productive as well.

You don't really NEED the pulley if you have good self control, you can just hook your pinkie over the ring or bar or whatever you are hanging on to right next to the OAC hand. You can also lightly grip the wrist of the working arm. This keeps you centered and also allows you to work on a concentric from the fully extended position.

I showed a OAC at the May seminar on both arms from a full dead hang, and this was the way I built it.

If you feel like you are making progress with what you are proposing, stick with that! If not, or if you aren't satisfied at some point in the future, consider giving what I am suggesting a whirl. Either way, don't lose your unassisted reps but don't concentrate on them too hard either. I would suggest you use them as maintenance and as a gauge for how the rest of your training is affecting your OAC.

[305pelusa]

That makes some sense, but to my way of thinking that means you need to move the pulley to right next to your hand. I did that, and it makes a huge difference. Much harder and much more productive as well.

You don't really NEED the pulley if you have good self control, you can just hook your pinkie over the ring or bar or whatever you are hanging on to right next to the OAC hand. You can also lightly grip the wrist of the working arm. This keeps you centered and also allows you to work on a concentric from the fully extended position.

I showed a OAC at the May seminar on both arms from a full dead hang, and this was the way I built it.

If you feel like you are making progress with what you are proposing, stick with that! If not, or if you aren't satisfied at some point in the future, consider giving what I am suggesting a whirl. Either way, don't lose your unassisted reps but don't concentrate on them too hard either. I would suggest you use them as maintenance and as a gauge for how the rest of your training is affecting your OAC.

Thanks man! I like the idea of the pinky at the middle. Seems like it wouldn't cancel out the twisting from it and thus, teach me the correct groove. I really like that idea. Couple of questions before I change into it:

1) When you used this method, do you think training it once a week will be enough? I'm using a Killroy template. So if you did them more than once a week, please tell me so I change the program a bit to have vertical pulling twice a week.

2) Regardless of how many times a week I use it, since this is self-assisted, what rep-set scheme should I be looking to use? I understand you guys like doing 2-3 sets, but I'm definitely lighter (just 130 lbs), so I think I could use a bit more of volume.

First reaction would be something like 5 sets of 2 reps, pulling as much as possible with the working arm on each rep (and as much as NEEDED with the pinky one)?

Or should I shoot for something more along the lines of less sets of more reps for more TUT?

3) If I do end up using the pinky-assisted method once a week... should I still add full OAC reps from time to time before my workouts to maintain the groove? Kind of how I was gonna do it with the negatives? About 4-6 reps total per week, separated throughout the week (like 1 daily, before a workout)?

Thanks man! I just wanna know the information on programming well before I take the negatives out and use your advice!

I understand you're quite heavy, so hearing about someone like you doing a OAC free-hanging without that mini-drop before (and starting with a straight arm) sounds extremely impressive. Again, I'm very grateful for the help

[Joshua Naterman]

Thanks man! I like the idea of the pinky at the middle. Seems like it wouldn't cancel out the twisting from it and thus, teach me the correct groove. I really like that idea. Couple of questions before I change into it:

1) When you used this method, do you think training it once a week will be enough? I'm using a Killroy template. So if you did them more than once a week, please tell me so I change the program a bit to have vertical pulling twice a week.

2) Regardless of how many times a week I use it, since this is self-assisted, what rep-set scheme should I be looking to use? I understand you guys like doing 2-3 sets, but I'm definitely lighter (just 130 lbs), so I think I could use a bit more of volume.

First reaction would be something like 5 sets of 2 reps, pulling as much as possible with the working arm on each rep (and as much as NEEDED with the pinky one)?

Or should I shoot for something more along the lines of less sets of more reps for more TUT?

3) If I do end up using the pinky-assisted method once a week... should I still add full OAC reps from time to time before my workouts to maintain the groove? Kind of how I was gonna do it with the negatives? About 4-6 reps total per week, separated throughout the week (like 1 daily, before a workout)?

Thanks man! I just wanna know the information on programming well before I take the negatives out and use your advice!

I understand you're quite heavy, so hearing about someone like you doing a OAC free-hanging without that mini-drop before (and starting with a straight arm) sounds extremely impressive. Again, I'm very grateful for the help

I think that because I have always done everything from a true dead hang I just didn't have much of a problem doing that with OAC. The top part is the hardest for me, which seems to not be the norm. This makes more sense to me now that I realize just how weak my traps have been for the longest time.

Anyways!

As far as programming goes,I think that I would do your singles exactly the way you are doing them right now since that is working well for you, but do them twice a week for 2-3 sets. I would not do more than that at the moment.

I think that on those two days I would do your 2-3 singles and then work on the assisted version, using however much assistance you need to hit 5-6 reps. I would probably start off with just 1-2 sets of that the first week and work my way to 3-5 sets just like you would do in a WOD. That will be a little while, but it's assisted so it won't be too long. You want to focus on the pulling hand, not the assisting hand. That can be a little challenging sometimes, but once you get the hang of it this will be no problem.

I do think that twice a week will be good since you are doing a Killroy template. Once a week will work ok, but you really need two days. Monday/Thursday, Monday/Friday, Tuesday/Friday, Tuesday/Saturday, etc. Whatever two days work, just have 2-3 rest days between them. You will be doing other things that involve pulling and that shouldn't be a problem since they will be a good bit easier than your OAC work.

Just start each rep with the fully extended arm and you should be good to go. Don't be afraid to adjust your assistance throughout the reps as needed. Really focus on using the traps and lats.

Rope climbing is also a very, very good way to work on these. You may want to consider 1 of those 2 days being a rope day if it is available and doing rope pull ups if you have a short rope or true rope climbs if you have a longer rope. Either way will really work quite similarly. The build up for sets and reps is the same. Go easy, ropes can be deceptively difficult and work muscles you are not used to working!

Chances are that down the line you will be able to handle a lot of volume, much like Cisco can, but I wouldn't think like that just now. It took him a long time to build up to what he can do right now, and it will take you time too.

[305pelusa]

I think that because I have always done everything from a true dead hang I just didn't have much of a problem doing that with OAC. The top part is the hardest for me, which seems to not be the norm. This makes more sense to me now that I realize just how weak my traps have been for the longest time.

Anyways!

As far as programming goes,I think that I would do your singles exactly the way you are doing them right now since that is working well for you, but do them twice a week for 2-3 sets. I would not do more than that at the moment.

I think that on those two days I would do your 2-3 singles and then work on the assisted version, using however much assistance you need to hit 5-6 reps. I would probably start off with just 1-2 sets of that the first week and work my way to 3-5 sets just like you would do in a WOD. That will be a little while, but it's assisted so it won't be too long. You want to focus on the pulling hand, not the assisting hand. That can be a little challenging sometimes, but once you get the hang of it this will be no problem.

I do think that twice a week will be good since you are doing a Killroy template. Once a week will work ok, but you really need two days. Monday/Thursday, Monday/Friday, Tuesday/Friday, Tuesday/Saturday, etc. Whatever two days work, just have 2-3 rest days between them. You will be doing other things that involve pulling and that shouldn't be a problem since they will be a good bit easier than your OAC work.

Just start each rep with the fully extended arm and you should be good to go. Don't be afraid to adjust your assistance throughout the reps as needed. Really focus on using the traps and lats.

Rope climbing is also a very, very good way to work on these. You may want to consider 1 of those 2 days being a rope day if it is available and doing rope pull ups if you have a short rope or true rope climbs if you have a longer rope. Either way will really work quite similarly. The build up for sets and reps is the same. Go easy, ropes can be deceptively difficult and work muscles you are not used to working!

Chances are that down the line you will be able to handle a lot of volume, much like Cisco can, but I wouldn't think like that just now. It took him a long time to build up to what he can do right now, and it will take you time too.

Even when I start with that mini-negative before, my arm is always straight before I pull up, so I guess that's good.

I do have a couple of two more questions and I'll be good to go!

1) Out of curiosity, why such high reps for the assisting method? I feel like by the time I reach reps 4-6, I'll be assisting WAAAAY too much with my other arm.

2) I can activate the lats big time during the OAC by keeping my shoulder down and back throughout the whole rep (especially at the bottom, where keeping the shoulder packed requires quite a bit of lat strength). However, I don't understand how to activate the traps. I thought I was supposed to keep the shoulder down throughout any Chinning work to protect the shoulder, but since the traps shrug the shoulder (at least as far as I know), then should I shrug it?

In other words, how do I activate those 2? What should be the shoulder positioning?

And thanks for all the help so far. I like the fact that I'll be working a bit more towards cleaning my OAC again.

[Joshua Naterman]

The traps move the shoulder up AND down. It's a big muscle. You want to use the lower parts, which it sounds like you're doing already.

The higher reps are to make sure that you work the supporting muscles as well as the prime movers. You have your heavier work to work the big muscles and your higher rep work to develop the support structure.

I found that I felt the best with a 60 lb assist for the "higher rep" OAC work. Over a very long period of time (several years, probably) that could be worked to the point where I just do 4-6 OAC per arm without assistance.

[Blairbob]

Impressive Sliz. I did not know you had attained the OAC.

[Joshua Naterman]

Impressive Sliz. I did not know you had attained the OAC.

Yea, I did. It was ugly at the very top lol... I have not maintained it very well because I have been focusing on my rehab, but at least I know I can get it back without too much trouble