The Meat and Testosterone Connection by Charles Poliquin

[Blairbob]

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/689/The_Meat_and_Testosterone_Connection.aspx

[Philip Chubb]

Helps me justify the kilo of grass fed beef I eat everyday. The gains (and losses) have been worth it!

[Blairbob]

You sound like Jeff, hahah.

[Joshua Naterman]

LOL! Apparently it works!

Personally, I'm accidentally vegetarian at this point. I just make sure to get plenty of egg yolks, use butter and coconut oil, and drink whole milk! Gotta keep the base substrates for testosterone in the system!

[Blairbob]

That would just make you a Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian. Which I have zero problems with. One of my gymnasts, who even though she was basically a pain in the butt 70% of the time, but one of the stronger of our compulsory group was such. She could almost give me a run for money for a 25m sprint. And yes, she was the same height if not taller than me. Also was a sprinter in JH and had showed pretty good muscle definition.

If I ever were to go vegetarian again, I would probably go Lacto-Ovo and probably make it work compared to my 1 month vegetarian attempt 10 years ago and the no red meat eating phase I went through in HS (I can't remember how long).

However, if I wanted to crunch the numbers, I think it would much easier for a girl and definitely a juvenile to make do with Lacto-Ovo vegetarianism than either of us. You weigh 220 and I should weigh about 160. Without whey, that means a lot of eggs and milks, maybe nuts. I'm trying not to drink much milk right now to help the leaning out efforts, maybe 20 ounces a day. I'm not sure it's doable without extra protein powder.

For a kid that is 50-90lbs, that doesn't mean they need to get A LOT of protein in. That's a couple of eggs, a glass or two of milk and a small amount of meat for lunch and dinner. Voila.

I can eat eggs of all kinds easy enough eventually they get old over a prolonged time.

[Joshua Naterman]

I definitely do whey. Since I'm on break I'm pretty much doing 8-10g whey per hour. On the hour, more or less. Also being more active and less lazy hahaha!

[Cole Dano]

Interesting to hear you've gone that route Slizz. I think that there are phases that certain diets work and others when they don't. This is not a all scientific, but just an observation i've made.

I always loved meat when i was a kid, but in my early 30's found i became an 'accidental' vegetarian which turned into a volitional one. I didn't eat meat for 15 years, and had no problems for at least 10 of those years. I didn't miss meat or crave it at all. Felt strong and energetic, more so than before i made the switch.

However, at some point, something changed, i knew my body needed something, i was also getting fat around the belly, skinny everywhere else, even though i was doing 'hard' yoga 3-4 hours a day plus teaching.

Thankfully i found this place, and was able to let go of the dogma that kept me being a vegetarian when it was no longer working.

Interestingly even in India, which certainly has the worlds largest vegetarian culture, Milk has always been an important feature of the diet. Moreover, for certain health issues, traditional Ayurvedic doctors will prescribe eating meat for a period of time.

[Philip Chubb]

You sound like Jeff, hahah.

Haha what can I say, meat is awesome. Makes the base of my diet along with vegetables. Sweet potatoes and coconut are the other two things.

[Donar]

I don't like the part about vitamin D. Meat is not a good source of vitamin D, and Poliquin should know that. So why does he even mention it in an article called "The Meat and Testosterone Connection"?

While fatty fish is the best food source of vitamin D (except for fish oils such as cod liver oil), it is still almost impossible to attain sufficient vitamin D from eating fish alone.

And vitamin D is not a mineral

[Philip Chubb]

I don't like the part about vitamin D. Meat is not a good source of vitamin D, and Poliquin should know that. So why does he even mention it in an article called "The Meat and Testosterone Connection"?

While fatty fish is the best food source of vitamin D (except for fish oils such as cod liver oil), it is still almost impossible to attain sufficient vitamin D from eating fish alone.

And vitamin D is not a mineral

I think he meant in terms of whole food. There is fish, eggs, and milk. I'm not sure about eggs but vitamin D in milk is the D2 version which isn't absorbed as well which is why fatty fish might be a better source. But it's definitely something to supplement with.

[Joshua Naterman]

I don't like the part about vitamin D. Meat is not a good source of vitamin D, and Poliquin should know that. So why does he even mention it in an article called "The Meat and Testosterone Connection"?

While fatty fish is the best food source of vitamin D (except for fish oils such as cod liver oil), it is still almost impossible to attain sufficient vitamin D from eating fish alone.

And vitamin D is not a mineral

I think he meant in terms of whole food. There is fish, eggs, and milk. I'm not sure about eggs but vitamin D in milk is the D2 version which isn't absorbed as well which is why fatty fish might be a better source. But it's definitely something to supplement with.

Unless you want to walk around nekkid!

Did you know that 30 minutes sunlight directly on the back and scrotum appears to increase testosterone levels? I wonder why the free boosters never get mentioned... Maybe when they learn to bottle sunlight?

[Philip Chubb]

Unless you want to walk around nekkid!

Did you know that 30 minutes sunlight directly on the back and scrotum appears to increase testosterone levels? I wonder why the free boosters never get mentioned... Maybe when they learn to bottle sunlight?

So uhhh...does it have to be both or can we just walk around shirtless...

[Joshua Naterman]

HAHAHA!!! Depends where you live, I think.

But seriously, just being shirtless is VERY good for you.

There is actually some really neat information regarding rats, sun exposure, and skin cancer. Two groups of rats were used, same lab rat species.

Group 1 was fed a natural diet with lots of plant matter.

Group 2 was fed a diet more similar to the "average american" diet.

Group 1 had a 0% incidence rate of skin cancer. Group 2 had a 25% incidence rate. It would appear, and this makes a TON of sense based on the fact that there are indigenous groups worldwide who exist shirtless and don't get skin cancer currently (not to mention throughout history), that plant matter intake is a critical determining factor in how our bodies respond to prolonged sun exposure.

You'd think this sort of thing would just be a HURR DURR! sort of idea, but we all know people have lived indoors and worn heavy clothing since the beginning of time I suppose I should expect this to not be a very obvious possibility/probability. We can see this in the heavily clad pictures of our ancestors in cave drawings as well as our existing indigenous peoples... *extreme sarcasm, for those who may not have noticed*

[Donar]

I don't like the part about vitamin D. Meat is not a good source of vitamin D, and Poliquin should know that. So why does he even mention it in an article called "The Meat and Testosterone Connection"?

While fatty fish is the best food source of vitamin D (except for fish oils such as cod liver oil), it is still almost impossible to attain sufficient vitamin D from eating fish alone.

And vitamin D is not a mineral

I think he meant in terms of whole food. There is fish, eggs, and milk. I'm not sure about eggs but vitamin D in milk is the D2 version which isn't absorbed as well which is why fatty fish might be a better source. But it's definitely something to supplement with.

I still think that part of the article is misleading.

He specifically states,

Vitamin D is produced in the body after sun exposure and can be consumed in the diet, but the best food sources of vitamin D are meat and fish products, meaning that vegetarians are at greater risk for vitamin D deficiency.

This excerpt suggests that meat is a good food source of vitamin D, which is not true. Yes, organ meats have some vitamin D, but not significant quantities.

In addition, Poliquin implies that a main cause of vitamin D deficiency is vegetarianism. Unless you eat a ton of fatty fish, you're going to be deficient in vitamin D if you don't get enough sunshine (or supplement) whether you are a vegetarian or not.

[Philip Chubb]

You just wrote it yourself. Notice he said, "the best food sources." He never said "the best sources" or even "good sources". He said "the best FOOD sources". If you took that as they're the best then that is just a misunderstanding. I would imagine the sun would be the best natural one.

Vegetarians are at greater risk. Once again, it wasn't because they don't eat fish, but since they don't, that is just one less source of vitamin D they have available.

[Philip Chubb]

HAHAHA!!! Depends where you live, I think.

But seriously, just being shirtless is VERY good for you.

There is actually some really neat information regarding rats, sun exposure, and skin cancer. Two groups of rats were used, same lab rat species.

Group 1 was fed a natural diet with lots of plant matter.

Group 2 was fed a diet more similar to the "average american" diet.

Group 1 had a 0% incidence rate of skin cancer. Group 2 had a 25% incidence rate. It would appear, and this makes a TON of sense based on the fact that there are indigenous groups worldwide who exist shirtless and don't get skin cancer currently (not to mention throughout history), that plant matter intake is a critical determining factor in how our bodies respond to prolonged sun exposure.

You'd think this sort of thing would just be a HURR DURR! sort of idea, but we all know people have lived indoors and worn heavy clothing since the beginning of time I suppose I should expect this to not be a very obvious possibility/probability. We can see this in the heavily clad pictures of our ancestors in cave drawings as well as our existing indigenous peoples... *extreme sarcasm, for those who may not have noticed*

That is extremely interesting. I wonder how exactly that works. Maybe I need to work more vegetables into my diet...

[WitnessTheFitness]

While I have nothing against Poliquin personally, that article is a misleading cheap shot at vegetarianism, using studies that are up to 26 years old to draw false conclusions about the effects of a vegetarian diet on athletic performance. And even then the differences on the quoted endurance test were "not statistically significant."

The only study quoted for the paragraph on soy was taken from a single case study.

As for essential fatty acids, zinc, Vitamin D, iron, and really any micronutrients in general, consumption depends entirely on the individual's diet. A poorly-planned diet has the risk of vitamin and mineral deficiencies regardless of whether or not it's vegetarian or omnivore; that's the fault of the individual, not the diet. One can readily get every micro and macro nutrient on a proper vegetarian diet. And as for creatine, in terms of natural creatine the body synthesizes it from amino acids, and a vegetarian that is getting the proper amount of those amino acids will be able to synthesize just as much creatine as an omnivore. Though creatine supplements are so cheap and easy to take even if that weren't the cause it's a non-issue.

Overall I didn't see a single factual reason in that entire article for vegetarian diets being worse for athletic performance than meat-based ones. Just look at Carl Lewis, a vegan who has won 9 Olympic gold medals, and 8 World Championship gold medals in track and field, who says that his athletic performance actually improved when he turned vegan. Poliquin will have to present a better argument than a couple of studies from the 1980s to discredit the literally countless modern studies demonstrating that a lack of animal products in one's diet does not decrease athletic performance so long as all the proper micro and macro nutrient needs are met.

And why would it be otherwise? Meat doesn't possess any magical properties; nutrition comes down to the individual nutrients consumed, the amount they're consumed in,w hat they're consumed with, and your body's ability to use those nutrients. There's no nutrient in meat that doesn't exist in a plant or synthetic form, so why and how would meat possibly give exclusive benefits? The long-held stereotype and myth between meat and athleticism and strength is nothing more than just that: a stereotype and myth. The only thing that matters is the nutrients; the GI tract has no way of distinguishing whether or not you got those nutrients from a dead animal, or plant/synthetic sources.

[Philip Chubb]

Aurele, what took you so long? I was expecting you to be the first to comment on this!

After talking to a lot of vegans and vegetarians, I do think it is possible to still get great results without meat. I don't think it's optimal however. I also don't think meat without vegetables is optimal either! I think having both would rock better than being either extreme and want to modify my diet to have closer to 7 servings of vegetation a day.

Would you be willing to share some of your daily meals? I'm curious as to what other vegetables I can eat to also help. I figure if I harness the power of meat AND vegetables, I will turn super saiyan. I would be really interested to see how you cover some of the more common "vegan deficiencies".

[Blairbob]

Meat protein generally has better amino acid profiles than other vegetarian proteins. Whey absorbs way better than just about anything except apparently pork tenderloin. I wonder if the same applies for other meats.

[WitnessTheFitness]

Aurele, what took you so long? I was expecting you to be the first to comment on this!

After talking to a lot of vegans and vegetarians, I do think it is possible to still get great results without meat. I don't think it's optimal however. I also don't think meat without vegetables is optimal either! I think having both would rock better than being either extreme and want to modify my diet to have closer to 7 servings of vegetation a day.

Would you be willing to share some of your daily meals? I'm curious as to what other vegetables I can eat to also help. I figure if I harness the power of meat AND vegetables, I will turn super saiyan. I would be really interested to see how you cover some of the more common "vegan deficiencies".

I noticed the thread when it was first posted, but I've had so many discussions on vegetarianism and athletic performance that sometimes I just feel too lazy to state the same things over again. I should just cram a lengthy diatribe into a Word document for copy-pasting in the future

Variety is really the key for nutritional adequacy in a vegan diet; if one's consuming a bunch of different fruits, vegetables, and grains then they're going to cover all their bases. I never worry about or consciously focus on the deficiencies in my diet, since it tends to take care of itself. Actually, if anything I worry about consuming too much nutrients, especially during school when I'm eating a bunch of heavily fortified things like Clif bars as meal replacements since I don't have time to cook. When I did a diet assessment a few months ago I was actually near the UL of quite a few vitamins and minerals, and after going through nutrient toxicity ad nauseum in my nutrition class now I'm all paranoid about consuming too much of many things

Going to a farmer's market with a huge selection of fruits and veggies you wouldn't normally eat, and looking up recipes online is a great way to broaden your diet. I'm a foodie that loves to cook, so I'm constantly making different stuff and it's hard to keep track of what I eat, but here is my daily meals for today: dark chocolate cupcakes baked with buckwheat, chia and hemp seeds; an Indian garbanzo bean and onion dish in a sauce of pureed tomatos, garlic, green chilis, ginger, and lemon; pumpkin curry with bell peppers, tofu, and basil over brown rice; a tofu scramble with assorted veggies on a corn tortilla; oatmeal with pomegranates, mango, strawberries, and banana; grilled asparagus with Indian spices; angel hair pasta with broccoli, sun-dried tomatoes, lemon zest, and pine nuts; and then my usual soy protein supplements mixed into orange juice and water.

[WitnessTheFitness]

Meat protein generally has better amino acid profiles than other vegetarian proteins. Whey absorbs way better than just about anything except apparently pork tenderloin. I wonder if the same applies for other meats.

Yeah, the micronutrients in meat are also more bioavailable than plant sources. But that doesn't mean one still can't get all the nutrients their body needs via plant sources. Meat is a complete protein far more bioavailable than plant proteins, but one can still get enough of all the essential amino acids through enough consumption of plant proteins. And then there's always soy, of which the isolate is pretty close to whey isolate in terms of bioavailability.

Does that extra bioavailability of whey make any difference in terms of actual strength and muscle mass development? Maybe, but from my personal experience between animal proteins and plant proteins I've never noticed any difference in terms of muscle mass and strength development. And even if there is a minute difference, the article isn't about those possible small differences; it seems to aim at discrediting vegetarianism as a route for athletes as a whole. Just look at the picture he used of a scrawny teenager. There are incredibly buff vegan bodybuilders that put to shame the vast majority of amateur omnivore athletes in terms of hypertrophy (well, what bodybuilder doesn't?) yet he didn't opt to use those pictures

[Philip Chubb]

That is how I am with internet arguing. Even if you convince someone, at the end of the day it just seems...

Anyways! Thanks for that. I can't do grains or soy. I'm allergic to both. But I will start to add more variety to my vegetables. I usually stick to brocolli or spinich because they're easy. But you listed some vegetables I've never even heard of...

[Edward Smith]

Aurele,

While I do not agree with veganism can I just say thank you for posting some interesting vegan recipes, all I ever see (granted it's from RAW vegans) is like a fruit salad of oranges and watermelon and banana.......which isn't a damn recipe!

Ed

[Rafael David]

I'm already convinced that animals will not be killed for feed purposes in the future. Scientists are already testing cloning muscle in lab, so we'll not need kill a entire cow to just to have a steak and maybe they discover a super non-animal protein made in lab and we just will need take pills of it in our meals (we already have whey isn't?). But, I'm also convinced that Paleo diet is far the best diet in the moment and produce really amazing results. Being vegetarian you can survive, but I think you can't really have optimal physical plenitude, the meat nurtures the meat.

[Joshua Naterman]

Meat protein generally has better amino acid profiles than other vegetarian proteins. Whey absorbs way better than just about anything except apparently pork tenderloin. I wonder if the same applies for other meats.

Even then, the amino acid profile isn't anywhere near as favorable as whey. Gram for gram the whey is far cheaper and far more effective.