Supplements

[Joshua Naterman]

Absorption rates of amino acids from the gut can vary from 1.4 g/h for raw egg white to 8 to 10 g/h for whey protein isolate. Slowly absorbed amino acids suchas casein (~ 6 g/h) and repeated small doses of whey protein (2.9 g per 20 min,

totaling ~ 7 g/h) promote leucine balance, a marker of protein balance, superior tothat of a single dose of 30 g of whey protein or free amino acids which are both rapidly absorbed (8 to 10 g/h), and enhance amino acid oxidation.

Looks like Blairbob is pretty solid on this! I added this quote since it fully supports what I am doing personally, and that is quite gratifying since this is the first time I have seen it mentioned!

Source:

http://bale.wordpress.com/2007/07/06/protein-absorption-rate/

[Blairbob]

Link is fixed. I didn't copy the exact link but rather tried to edit the url to part2 as I had part1 opened.

One might be able to adjust the rate of digestion if they upped the amount of enzymes that were in your body. Bare in mind, this is just wild speculation on my part. Apparently the pH of the stomach is around 6.8 so maybe if you could adjust that (HCl supplementation?) We really need to know the size of the individuals that gave us those numbers but let's face it that I doubt their stomach and intestines are that much bigger from a guy that is 150lb to 225lb to 300lb. I doubt that a 225lb man has 50% more digestive equipment than a 150lb man. But heck, I dunno really.

Excerpts from (Really, y'all should just read it since it's only 5 or 6 pages)

http://abcbodybuilding.com/protein_size_&_frequency.pdf

It is unlikely that eating another meal 2-3 hours after the first meal would be sufficient to induce another rise in protein synthesis since amino acid/leucine levels are already elevated. It may therefore, be more useful to consume larger amounts of protein at a meal and wait longer between protein doses than the typical 2-3 hours that is typically recommended in the bodybuilding community.

For instance, Arnal et al.7 compared elderly women consuming either 4 small meals per day with their total protein intake evenly spaced out verses those that consumed the same amount of protein but with 80% of their total protein coming in one meal. The researchers found that the women consuming the large single dose of protein actually had greater nitrogen balance, protein turnover, and protein synthesis rates than the group consuming their protein across four evenly spaced meals. Now, the total protein intake for both groups was only 60g so the group consuming protein evenly only consumed 15g at each meal. Still, it is interesting that the group eating almost all of their total protein in one meal had better results.

What I am implying is that it is better to consume larger protein doses spaced further apart and maximize protein synthesis, rather than consuming smaller doses of protein throughout the day, since research has shown that protein synthesis will become refractory to constantly elevated levels of amino acids. It may be that a period where amino acids return to baseline or near baseline is required in order to initiate another bout of protein synthesis. I therefore suggest that one consume 4-6 larger protein doses per day instead of 6-8 meals and wait 4-5 hours between meals rather than 2-3 hours.

At

It's just speculation but perhaps that is how those IFers get it done. Lots of protein that digests slowly over time.

Gronk the caveman or Mooga the Neanderthal probably didn't limit themselves to 4-8 ounces of meat per meal. I, personally don't think Paleothic man could hold his own to modern man when it comes to strength or power levels (but probably exceeded our greatest endurance levels) but this is just based on surviving H/G groups today. They are no Olympic or Power Lifting individuals in those groups and I doubt a H/G diet could support men sized like Sumotori; or the Deadlift, Squat, StrongMan, or Clean&Jerk record holders.

Neanderthal seems to just be built differently just as chimps and gorillas seem to have strength that is hard to comprehend compared to humans.

[Blairbob]

On a completely different note, I just read that our body synthesizes 20-60g of glutamine a day so glutamine supplementation is probably moot.

Apparently, 100g of protein equals about 15-20g of BCAA. 300g of protein equals 45-60. It's probably just cheaper and easier to supplement BCAA than try to eat 300g of protein.

[Joshua Naterman]

Sort of. After just 2-3 hours of fasting, the body conserves protein and carbs while upregulating fat utilization. This apparently causes the body to react more favorably to protein ingested via some sort of "emergency response" to the short term shortage. Efficiency is temporarily increased through better absorption.

This is completely off-set by the difference between an athletic population and a sedentary one, much less an elderly population.

The pH of the stomach should be around 2.0, if it gets above 3.0 you don't even have any pepsin enzyme activity to speak of. The small intestine should be around 8.0, if it drops below 7 you don't have any protease enzyme activity to speak of. Two totally different stages of digestion.

Also, if 60g of protein is spaced out evenly then those women were experiencing consistently low protein levels without enough time for synthesis to be significantly up-regulated via short term starvation responses. Look at the absorption charts we are familiar with, the 15g of protein from most food sources either A) will not provide enough protein to maintain positive nitrogen balance at ANY given time and/or B) be absorbed too quickly to do any good for a long period of time.

There are other issues as well. I will have to write more later, but this isn't the only study that has shown large doses of protein to increase synthesis. More later.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Per hour, not per day! But it's more like more than 15g per hour hitting the blood is a waste. With whey that's easy to measure since we know how fast it gets absorbed. With other sources it can be more difficult to estimate, but whole food proteins tend to take 3-4 hours to be fully absorbed when consumed in reasonable quantities (30-50g). There's always a curve to the absorption, but that's life.

Haha! That's what I meant. Per hour.

In that case, since protein powder use is limited, it might be best for me to just take 15g whey, 10g BCAA (?), and some vegetables pre-workout; 25g whey and vegetables throughout the workout; and 15g whey, 20g BCAA, and some vegetables post workout 1. Then just take 15g whey plus vegetables each hour.

I don't have way of liquidizing my carbohydrate source, so I snack on vegetables before, during, and after my workout. Sometimes I feel a bit queezy after my workouts, but it may just because I was chugging down 25g whey pre-WO, 50g during, 50g immed. afterwards, and 50g 30 minutes afterwards. O.O I won't be doing that anymore.

[Joshua Naterman]

Per hour, not per day! But it's more like more than 15g per hour hitting the blood is a waste. With whey that's easy to measure since we know how fast it gets absorbed. With other sources it can be more difficult to estimate, but whole food proteins tend to take 3-4 hours to be fully absorbed when consumed in reasonable quantities (30-50g). There's always a curve to the absorption, but that's life.

Haha! That's what I meant. Per hour.

In that case, since protein powder use is limited, it might be best for me to just take 15g whey, 10g BCAA (?), and some vegetables pre-workout; 25g whey and vegetables throughout the workout; and 15g whey, 20g BCAA, and some vegetables post workout 1. Then just take 15g whey plus vegetables each hour.

I don't have way of liquidizing my carbohydrate source, so I snack on vegetables before, during, and after my workout. Sometimes I feel a bit queezy after my workouts, but it may just because I was chugging down 25g whey pre-WO, 50g during, 50g immed. afterwards, and 50g 30 minutes afterwards. O.O I won't be doing that anymore.

My god, you must have had omnipotent farts!

[John Sapinoso]

^^^

[Quick Start Test Smith]

My god, you must have had omnipotent farts!

Not really... 8)

[ChocoGymnast]

If we say that I am consuming 190g of protein a day, which is a hell of a lot for me, I need to be consuming around 70g(that's 37%) of glucose along with the whey that I sip (or slower carbs along with casein) to try and minimize the protein loss.

If I'm consuming 150g of protein daily, 90g of that being from whey and the rest being from solid foods, should I only be consuming 33g of glucose (37% of the 90) with the whey on workout days? Or should it be 55g (37% of the 150) regardless if the protein isn't all coming from whey?

[Joshua Naterman]

If we say that I am consuming 190g of protein a day, which is a hell of a lot for me, I need to be consuming around 70g(that's 37%) of glucose along with the whey that I sip (or slower carbs along with casein) to try and minimize the protein loss.

If I'm consuming 150g of protein daily, 90g of that being from whey and the rest being from solid foods, should I only be consuming 33g of glucose (37% of the 90) with the whey on workout days? Or should it be 55g (37% of the 150) regardless if the protein isn't all coming from whey?

If you're getting the rest from solid foods you should be having vegetables and/or other carb sources with your meat so glucose is unnecessary and would most likely be processed before the meat making it useless. Whole food carbs should go with whole food protein.

Just make sure the glucose powder is mixed nicely into the whey drink and not consumed separately, if you don't have glucose + whey together then you are wasting the glucose.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Okay, Sliz, let me see... I'm not sure how many carbs I should have a day.

> I train about 2.25 hours a day of my own intense training and then I am active for the rest of the day, sometimes spending another 2 hours playing tennis or another 4 hours lightly practicing martial arts and sparring.

> I weigh 180 lbs.

> I get about 120g of my PRO from whey and the rest from ham or another meat.

My questions:

> What are the general guidelines for carbs? It's still very blurry for me regarding what to eat, when to eat them, and how much do I need...

> Roughly how many carbs should I expect to have to replace after workout?

> How does the whole carb replacement thing work if I'm taking glucose during my workout in my protein+dextrose drink that I sip every 30 minutes or so?

What I do right now:

> Eat about 35-50g CHO of sweet potatoes and/or lettuce and/or buckwheat waffles + 30g PRO of ham or another meat before I go to class for three hours. I also get 10g PRO whey because I know it will take about an hour for the meat to actually start being used.

> Get 10g PRO whey every hour plus 15-20g CHO from sweet potatoes, lettuce, or buckwheat waffles.

> Get 10g PRO whey constant every hour while I train while sipping a separate (I know this is incorrect now-I will mix my whey and dextrose in the future) dextrose drink. It's basically a 1:2 ratio of PRO:Dextrose per hour (for a two hour workout=20gPRO:40gDextrose)

> Maintain the 10g + some whole food carb source 15-20g CHO per hour

I know I'm doing a lot of this wrong, but I'm doing it wrong very, very precisely lol. I mean, I literally eat every single hour if humanly possible. Thanks 8)

[ChocoGymnast]

If we say that I am consuming 190g of protein a day, which is a hell of a lot for me, I need to be consuming around 70g(that's 37%) of glucose along with the whey that I sip (or slower carbs along with casein) to try and minimize the protein loss.

If I'm consuming 150g of protein daily, 90g of that being from whey and the rest being from solid foods, should I only be consuming 33g of glucose (37% of the 90) with the whey on workout days? Or should it be 55g (37% of the 150) regardless if the protein isn't all coming from whey?

If you're getting the rest from solid foods you should be having vegetables and/or other carb sources with your meat so glucose is unnecessary and would most likely be processed before the meat making it useless. Whole food carbs should go with whole food protein.

Just make sure the glucose powder is mixed nicely into the whey drink and not consumed separately, if you don't have glucose + whey together then you are wasting the glucose.

That was my plan all along, thanks for the reply.

[Joshua Naterman]

You're welcome, sounds like you have everything covered!