training frustrations

[Erin Roepke]

Hello everyone,

I've been training on the BtGB stuff for a little over a year now, but I'm a bit frustrated at how little progress I've made. What I really want to train are the FL and planche progressions, and while I can hold an adv. frogstand for a bit of time, I can do niether a tuck FL nor a tuck planche. I believe the problem is mostly my lacking core strength, so I've been working very hard on my lsit but am very frustrated. This is the third SSC i've done with a low l-sit. I started holding it at 3 seconds, and in a little over half a year I can only hold it for 6 seconds with my feet barely off the ground. Last week I had the idea to rest my feet on a box while on my parralletes so that i was in an Adv. lsit position, and then practice doing single leg lifts. I felt them in my stomach but even more so in my hips and the backs of my legs, like it was a stretch as well as a strength exercise. I did this 3 times last week, after each training session, and on monday this week I noticed that on my first set of lsits, i was able to lift my legs noticibly higher. But after that all my lsits went back to their barely-off-the-floor position. I was just wondering if anyone else has had similar issues or could suggest other supplemental exercises that could help. I only do 3 sets of lsit holds twice a week; i tried doing sets equalling a minute but found it to be too tiring as well as time-consuming. Should I try 5 sets instead? And should I work more on my tuck BL in order to build stength for the tuck planche? Is it unreasonable for me to think a girl (with no gymnastics background) could build the strength nessecary for a tuck planche or FL? Or am I just being too impatient?

Thanks for the help!

Erin

[Philip Chubb]

A lot of people seem to have similar issues. Of having low times and trying to keep building strength with low times. Sometimes, you need to take a step (progression) back and build some volume. So you have a 6 second l-sit. It may be time for you to focus on some volume for a while. Try doing just a normal support position or a tucked lsit and building up some good time in that position. Try to get around 20-30 seconds with maybe a minute of rest in between. Do that for 2 weeks, and then see how your lsit increases. You can do this with almost anything. If the strength plateaus, build some volume (without hurting yourself) and then try your maximum again. You will find that you have a nice new one. Hope that helps.

Also, specifically for not being able to go from adv frog to tuck pl, how is your back lever?

[Erin Roepke]

It's pretty bad. I can hold it for about four seconds (tuck BL) but I always either use my lats or if I dont do that then I end up closer to an inverted hang position than a tuck BL.

[Foghorn]

Erin don't give up hope.

I have just recently attended Coach's first Australian Seminar - it was awesome. Key point was a lot (most) of us haven't done the required pre-prequisites in some crucial areas particularly core strength. So you are not alone.

I would suggest you find a recent post of Mr Brady's re the prerequisites. Take a big step back and follow that information diligently and you will be impressed with your progress. These are critical foundations - reach the indicated benchmarks and you will be rocking. They are much harder than they sound at first.

The times you have for L-sits show that you are not ready to be training them at this point. If you want to play around with these to complement the above suggestion then scale them right back.

[Bruno Cochofel]

Erin, take a look at this post:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7306

Read the information about preFSP. I really believe you should do these pre-requisites before trying to do the FSP.

[Blairbob]

Mr. Hollow and Arch hold come to mind, a lot of them. Think 2-3 minutes of them broken up as a volume approach.

For those gymnasts who had a difficult time of L-sit, I used seated L where they simply lift their heels off the floor varying between just seated leg lifts and holds for time. I generally used 6 sets of 10 lifts alternated with 10s holds. We'd do more but they weren't up to it and we had a finite amount of time.

I would also work a lot of leg lifts while on your back and make sure no tension is ever released while doing them. Do not allow your lower back to come off the floor or release tension as the leg lift hits its maximum ROM above your belly button or head in the air. LOTS.

[Cole Dano]

For those gymnasts who had a difficult time of L-sit, I used seated L where they simply lift their heels off the floor varying between just seated leg lifts and holds for time. I generally used 6 sets of 10 lifts alternated with 10s holds. We'd do more but they weren't up to it and we had a finite amount of time.

This is a very good idea, will give it a try.

[Blairbob]

With those little guys, it wasn't that they too weak to support themselves, it was that they lacked the core strength necessary. Pretty common with beginners. They may be able to climb some rope or have some pushing strength but holding basic positions like hollow and L are tough (and not fun to them).

[Quick Start Test Smith]

For those gymnasts who had a difficult time of L-sit, I used seated L where they simply lift their heels off the floor varying between just seated leg lifts and holds for time. I generally used 6 sets of 10 lifts alternated with 10s holds. We'd do more but they weren't up to it and we had a finite amount of time.

This is a very good idea, will give it a try.

I will too. I have horrible core strength.

[Erin Roepke]

Wow guys, thanks for all the responses. I think this stuff will help. I actually have done most of the prereq stuff, like the arch and hollow holds and the plank stuff--we do those a lot at the MMA school where I work. I'm going to try more of that volume-over-intensity thing and see how that works.

[Cole Dano]

With those little guys, it wasn't that they too weak to support themselves, it was that they lacked the core strength necessary. Pretty common with beginners. They may be able to climb some rope or have some pushing strength but holding basic positions like hollow and L are tough (and not fun to them).

Well this is on of the big factors that turned me on the GB. When i realized that after 15 years of climbing to the top of the Ashtanga yoga ladder, i had little core strength and less endurance.

I have to admit, i'm still in the not fun category, i look at it like taking cod liver oil, its good for you.

My students really dread L-sit, its good to have some additional tools.

[Julekman]

First, you must choose exercise that put a less problem for you, but challenging enough, in your example this is not full L sit. Chose easier variant in the book, or Lift butt of the floor with heels on the ground and down for reps, or lift legs only. I describe this in post L sit tricks. For me, this works the best for manage new skill. Go with specificity + frequent work, for example, for couple of months do this almost everyday at least 5 days in a week, lots of volume. One day do it regular, with short rest, 50% intensity of max, choose variant where 50 % of max is your 5-10 reps or 15 sec holds. Start from 5 reps or 10 sec holds, lots of volume 50 to 100 reps or more for static.Dont rush, stick to form. Second day do GTG also 50% through the day. If you feel tired after couple of days, then scale down reps. You must be fresh to do it everyday for months. As your strength improves, so is your reps/holds, and then choose harder variation, or different system.

[MichaelLee]

I never trained for the L-sit like this, because the first time I tried it I sort of got it straight away...

TBH, I think this is because before I got into gymnastics based training, I was doing loads of ab exercises daily, but most notably p90x's ab ripper.

I found the video on the internet, but I don't think I would have had that L-sit (bear in mind it was also slightly low, but I could hold it for long enough) without doing a strenuous ab routine like that.

Maybe you could see how ab training like that goes for you for a while, instead of building the L-sit from the start?

[Mark Plas]

Hi Erin,

Last year, I could do an L-Sit the first time I tried it, and that was before I followed the BTGB program&the WODs.

The reason for this is that I used to do these two core exercises:

The first one was Hanging Leg Lifts (HLL). In its perfect form, this is probably too hard for you, but you could start doing these in a tuck version (just as I did two years ago) and lift the knees as high as you can (this may not be very high in the beginning, and perhaps even below horizontal). I did series of 10 repetitions but maybe less is better if you want to build strength in that area. As you get stronger you can start extending the legs more and more.

The second exercise looked a bit like HLL, except that I was not hanging from a bar, but supported my body on my fore arms with the legs hanging free. From that position I lifted my legs in a 90 degree angle until my thighs were parallel to the floor. At the same time though, I also lifted a dumbbell that I squeezed between my feet. See this link to see what I mean: http://www.myfit.ca/exercisedatabase/vi ... ises&ID=70.

As you get stronger, you can increase the weight of the dumbbell, but you should start without a dumbbell! Just to make it clear: I did not stretch my legs doing this exercise. They were always bent 90 degrees. I used the dumbbell to increase difficulty.

As for frequency of training: On monday & thursday I did HLL, and on tuesday & friday I did the 2nd exercise. I always did 3x10 reps. Right now I follow the WODs and don't do (need) this anymore.

Perhaps this can help you build the initial strength required to do static L-Sits?

[Joshua Naterman]

Great suggestions. All I want to add is that a lot of people think they are doing things correctly until one of us (meaning the people who have been to the seminars) checks form and then they realize that they are NOT actually in a good hollow hold. This could be part of the problem as well... strength with bad form doesn't transfer well to the next steps.

The weight should be directly under your belly button and nowhere else. Outside of that, hamstring flexibility + Blairbob's suggestions are a great combo. You can also start off just like the code of points does, with a hanging L, and build up from there.

[Blairbob]

Yeah, as Sliz says, I put a bit more emphasis on hanging L than support L for my beginners. They hate it just as much and I think it may be easier even when you are not cheating by flexing the shoulders.

For girls, I work both for those in the developmental and compulsory competitive programs on bars. With no L, you cannot effectively learn a kip. Well, ya can actually but it's not the way I teach it.

[Erin Roepke]

Yeah, as Sliz says, I put a bit more emphasis on hanging L than support L for my beginners. They hate it just as much and I think it may be easier even when you are not cheating by flexing the shoulders.

For girls, I work both for those in the developmental and compulsory competitive programs on bars. With no L, you cannot effectively learn a kip. Well, ya can actually but it's not the way I teach it.

Is it more beneficial to work on the hang L instead of the regular L-sit if you're trying to build up to the tuck FL?

[Blairbob]

I prioritize Hang L more so than tuck FL. It is extremely necessary for uneven/single rail bars.

A lot of people can work tuck FL but eventually their FL work will stagnate if they can't hold an L. It's not simply a matter of their upper body pull strength. I once had a young teen guy who could speed up the rope legless but could barely hold a tuck FL. Bare in mind he was a lanky guy built like a rockclimber and very lean.

[Erin Roepke]

Well do you have to train the hang L with an overhand grip, or can you use an underhand grip?