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Aaron Griffin

Consensus on FSP prereq programming

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Aaron Griffin
While it is a always a big plus to work with someone who knows what they are doing, i don't think that's the reason.

Well, what I mean is that some information comes out, and then it stops with a response like "Oh, that's in the seminars" or "Oh, that's advanced stuff". Which is fine - I understand this is not handled with any malicious intent, but it adds this sort of woo-woo "mystique" to everything. Sort of like a "I'll tell you when you're older" response

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Cole Dano

I understood what you meant. I think its kind of unfortunate and really hope the books come out or the pdf idea you had so we can discuss this more openly. There is nothing mystical happening other than methodical training and its effects.

To be honest i feel awkward about the whole situation, which is why i attempted to navigate the original question, sadly causing more confusion.

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Blairbob
Agreed. I don't think it's actually complicated, but I get the same vibe I get from martial arts books or manuals - disinformation is added in order to make people get the training in real life.

Many martial arts and systems do them. It's a way to protect their knowledge from those who are not deemed worthy or need to know, etc.

However, Coach has NOT done this on purpose.

The GB seminars have evolved from the first to the current (though I only have been to 1 over a year ago). They are an alive, developing creation.

They also came after BtGB and also came about due to the needs of many non gymnasts coming to the seminars. Much different than what Coach was exposed to after years of developing gymnasts. An adult fitness enthusiast comes to the plate very differently than a 5 or 10 year old.

That is one of the very reasons the preFSP were not gone over in BtGB. It was thought that the preFSP was so simplistic that there was no need to go over it. However many people at the seminar showed a need for these.

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Joshua Beeston

First off, thank you all who have given us this information and helping us build our solid foundation, setting us up to improve in the future. I completely respect the fact that Coach wants some information to remain private, but as a final consensus, is this all we are allowed to know at the time regarding Pre-FSP:

PL: Plank, Rev Plank, PB Support Hold

FL: Hollow Body Hold, Hollow Body Rock

BL: Arch Body Hold, Arch Body Rock

And just building up to 3x60s holds on hangs.

Or are we allowed to know what comes after these on the way to building up to the actual FSP. Thank you again for all the help.

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Blairbob

NO.

PL: plank support, PB support, L-sit (on Floor)

FL: hollow hold/rock

BL: arch hold/rock, german hang (reverse plank is probably in there as well as seated shoulder extension http://drillsandskills.com/stretching/Shoulder/sd005)

I will give you this, building up to being able to do skin the cat (360 pull [i prefer pike but sometimes tuck is acceptable in a gymnastics gyms]) is one of the first drills boys do a lot of before they work on levers. If you can't do a skin the cat, working lever work is pretty pointless.

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Cole Dano

Yeah, that was as much as i felt comfortable spelling out. The book will help piece things together from there.

Though you could think of it different ways, Coach currently puts Rev Plank as part of the PL progression.

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Blairbob

Interesting. I didn't see it that way during the seminar or the notes that we had collected last year. I do understand.

Quite honestly if you cannot do the basic pre FSP's, you don't need to worry about the FSP's.

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newguy5000

Sorry if this is a noob question, but i still have a question about something.

If we take the example of one skill tree you have mentioned:

Plank> PB Support > L Sit on Floor > ?

If i can hold all of these for 3 x 60 seconds and am working the ? progression, would i still warm up with all of these positions for 1 x 60 sec OR just do 1 x 60 sec of the progression below the one i am currently working on?

i.e

1 x 60 Plank

1 x 60 PB Support

1 x 60 L sit FX

(then work ? progression)

OR

1 x 60 L sit FX

(then work ? progression)

sorry if this is already obvious but i was unsure.

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Cole Dano
Sorry if this is a noob question, but i still have a question about something.

If we take the example of one skill tree you have mentioned:

Plank> PB Support > L Sit on Floor > ?

If i can hold all of these for 3 x 60 seconds and am working the ? progression, would i still warm up with all of these positions for 1 x 60 sec OR just do 1 x 60 sec of the progression below the one i am currently working on?

i.e

1 x 60 Plank

1 x 60 PB Support

1 x 60 L sit FX

(then work ? progression)

OR

1 x 60 L sit FX

(then work ? progression)

sorry if this is already obvious but i was unsure.

This one -

1 x 60 Plank

1 x 60 PB Support

1 x 60 L sit FX

1 x (req'd time) next steps in the progression....

(then work ? progression)

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Cole Dano
Interesting. I didn't see it that way during the seminar or the notes that we had collected last year. I do understand.

Quite honestly if you cannot do the basic pre FSP's, you don't need to worry about the FSP's.

I imagine its due to the straight arm element, but yes you are right its not really important, this needs to be solid before even thinking of the actual FSP.

Coach makes a conceptual split between the foundational work and the actual FSPs in the notes. Like you said this is evolving.

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newguy5000

Thanks very much for the response. I am going to go back and redo my all statics except my handstand from the beginning. This was a great help in training.

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Mikko Myllymäki

I'm here to check too if I've understood this correctly. Sorry to bother. After doing FSPs from the book for over a year now (I can do 3*20s tuck FL/BL, 2*30s L-sit FR and 2*30s PL lean with elevated feet), I just heard about the pre req. test so I did it and these are the results (45 s break between sets):

straight-arm plank 60+60+60 s

straight-arm reverse plank 60+60+60 s (wasn't sure if this should be done with straight arms or not)

hollow hold 60+30+30 s

arch hold 60+60+60 s

PB support 60+60+60 s

chinup-grip hang 60+40+30 s

So what exactly I should be doing now? Like this?

PL: straight-arm plank 1x60s, PB support 1x60s, L-sit 2x30s (next progression ?)

FL: hollow hold 3xmax (next progression hollow rock)

BL: arch hold 1x60, arch rock 1x60 (next progression german hang)

In addition chinup-grip hangs 3xmax.

I didn't quite understand where I should insert the reverse plank? Should I stop doing tuck FL/BL and PL lean altogether?

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newguy5000

Not an expert but that looks right to me from reading this thread. There was a suggestion to have reverse plank in the PL skill tree. I believe it was also suggested to count the reps on the rocks (hollow / arch) rather than time.

As to stopping the other stuff i guess it depends on how anal you want to be about it. if your getting good results / progressions in your training already without injuries then you may as well plough ahead. But if your finding progress slow it strikes me that that the benefit of doing these pre reqs to a high standard is that (as others have mentioned) it lays a good physical foundation and probably makes you less injury prone and maybe later progressions will come faster and easier.

I am only at the first stages of FL tuck, BL tuck, advanced Frog Stand. So i don't see that it costs me anything to drop them and work on pre-reqs. If my L sit was at your time i would keep doing it, but my L sit is pretty short and not great too. Plus i do weight lifting - HST training at the moment so try to keep my static work submaximal.

That's just my two cents from reading the more knowledgable posts on this board and feeling how my own body reacts to this training. Only thing i'd like to add as an observation. When i started doing pre reqs about 3 months ago i tried arch rocks and felt like my lower back was going to explode. Now i am up to 30 reps of arch rocks and my lower back feels bullet proof. It's amazing how such a simple exercise gives such tremendous results.

edit: if you have a big wang tuck that monster between your legs before arch rocking. It's really not a pleasant experience to rock your body weight over your manhood or even worse a nut.

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Blairbob

I would keep supports and L-sit seperate. After PB support, focus on either ring plank support or ring support. Keep on doing your L-sit work seperately. If you can do ring plank and support, you could work on planche lean on floor (but not on rings that comes further along ring training according to Coach Sommer).

Do some hollow rocks. Then work some HLL family progressions and make sure you are programming in some form of pullups. Rows, Pullups, rope climbs, etc.

Planks in GB are done with straight arms, I prefer them this way and if you can't hold yourself up when it comes to MAG, you can't do jack (especially pommel).

And yes, arch rocks take special consideration for adult males and females. Busty females may not like arch rocks on their chest. We had a pretty involved discussion on this in the adult class one time, hahah. :wink: :twisted:

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Adriano Katkic
I will give you this, building up to being able to do skin the cat (360 pull [i prefer pike but sometimes tuck is acceptable in a gymnastics gyms]) is one of the first drills boys do a lot of before they work on levers. If you can't do a skin the cat, working lever work is pretty pointless.

Bob, are you allowed to shed some more light on this? I can pull off a couple of pike pulls but never really tried my max. I do them only in ring strength WODs when Coach calls for them. Are they also supposed to be a part of warm up?

Busty females may not like arch rocks on their chest. We had a pretty involved discussion on this in the adult class one time, hahah. :wink: :twisted:

:twisted: :twisted:

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Joshua Naterman

Yes, you have to be careful not to crush yourself. Proper position prior to exercise is key.

We can't really get much further into detail than we have, unfortunately.

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newguy5000

Thanks for the responses guys. That is plenty to keep me occupied for awhile anyways. I was supposed to go to the Australian seminar but a family member had to go into surgery that same weekend so i had to cancel. I'll have to get to another one maybe next year.

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Mikko Myllymäki

Thanks for the answers newguy and Blairbob :) Much appreciated.

As to stopping the other stuff i guess it depends on how anal you want to be about it. if your getting good results / progressions in your training already without injuries then you may as well plough ahead. But if your finding progress slow it strikes me that that the benefit of doing these pre reqs to a high standard is that (as others have mentioned) it lays a good physical foundation and probably makes you less injury prone and maybe later progressions will come faster and easier.

I have an injury in my right wrist (not sure where I got it though, training gymnastic strength stuff or martial arts), which forces me to do planche leans on parallettes. Other than that no injuries but I've been kind of frustrated with my lack of progress for a while now. So maybe it's time to change things up a little bit. I don't know if I want to drop tuck FL/BL altogether but I could maybe give them a little less time.

I would keep supports and L-sit seperate. After PB support, focus on either ring plank support or ring support. Keep on doing your L-sit work seperately. If you can do ring plank and support, you could work on planche lean on floor (but not on rings that comes further along ring training according to Coach Sommer).

Do some hollow rocks. Then work some HLL family progressions and make sure you are programming in some form of pullups. Rows, Pullups, rope climbs, etc.

Do you mean that I should do supports and L-sits in different training sessions or just separate inside the same training session? I was planning to do all those pre FSP progressions in the same training, is that a bad idea? I know I can do ring plank and ring support but no idea for how long. I'll insert one or the other after the PB support. HLL, chinups, rows and inverted chinups I already do weekly.

Thanks again guys for the help!

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Blairbob

Your support and L work will be seperate but in the same workout.

I will say this on 360 pulls/skin the cats. Most beginning gymnasts will work on these, A LOT. I played around with having the boys do them in their WU with swings to loosen up their shoulders and back. Generally, ring WU for event work on rings was a few sets of skin the cats and german hang. Most of my beginners when they weren't working on swing work with me, would go over and work support work on low rings and skin the cats or german hang to inverted pike.

So little boys end up working lots of skin the cats. When the boys and girls are in kinder gymnastics from 3-6, they will spend a lot of time working on skin the cats on the lower bars a lot.

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Paul Gray

Hey guys, I don't think the intensity was specified. Are we still working these pre-FSPs at 50% of Max? So we need to calculate our maxes 1st?

:?:

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Blairbob

If you use a SteadyStateCycle, use 50%.

I don't think there is a consensus on what to work preFSP's as. A SSC is the safe bet, probably.

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