BtGB for Girls

[Troy Rodriguez]

I was wondering a couple of questions.

1. Should the same formats be used to train girls in a group gymnastic environment? I cannot see why not but thought I would ask anyway.

2. Do you perform the conditioning prior to skill work in group settings? Do you do static stretching after skill work?

[Philip Chubb]

I don't see why it wouldn't work. Just my .02 cents. But I wonder if for girls, there would be more on an emphasis on legs. Womens gymnastics has three events that are more about legs it seems compared to one upperbody one while mens has 4.5 upper body events. That's a very simple version and I know you have to be strong enough to do back handsprings and so on but it was just a thought.

[Troy Rodriguez]

A bit of a different scenario but they are doing mostly Power Tumbling which is Rod Floor tumbling, Trampoline, and Double Mini trampoline as events. They get a lot of leg work from the trampolines so don't think they are slacking there. I do use SLS and plyo work with them (Senders, box jumps, depth drops) but not much more. I am more worried about their blocking from handsprings and the like which is mostly a wrist, shoulder, core issue.

I am developing an routine for the group and am giving them individual testing to see where they are progression wise in different exercises. Then I am putting them on a SSC for 8 weeks in that progression. So if I say do L-Sits for 60 secs they will do their own progression of that move for 10x6 or 15x4. I don't have them go much lower than 10s progressions. They also do tons of HS work as all the variations seem to give a ton of reward for body position, tension, shoulders, wrists, core.

I have had two girls with their Achilles tendon or base of their heal hurting. What am I missing in my routines that would account for that? Not stretching the calf enough?

[Blairbob]

Your girls may need to stretch their achilles but it could be a simple of too much usage and inflammation even with the softer surfaces like a rod floor vs a WAG floor.

Seeing as they are tumblers, you need to work the lower body. Squats and DL and SLS come to mind. One of our HC at the last gym I was at for WAG was very big into legs for girls despite the worry about hypertrophy and size. He is a highly knowledge coach who has sent girls to D1 besides training for elite (but as they were not on the national team, he doesn't call them elites). He was also a former medalist from Ukraine who had trained in Russia as well as competing for Cal.

Sliz seems to post a lot that the WOD is done before skill work. Many competitive WAG and MAG programs will actually do str and condition before events. I don't prefer this but it tends to be way more convenient when plotting out event rotations and schedules. It is more difficult to program S&C post events than before events. Some events aren't really taxed much from conditioning before hand. However, some programs are a bit weak sauce on their S&C before events. Again, it's not ideal IMO.

However I think you would be a lunatic if you did that for Tramp and Tumbling.

Getting back to your tumblers, I think barbell conditioning makes a lot of sense. That other HC liked bench press for the girls but I find overhead press to be sufficient. It also takes less equipment and I don't think it's going to possibly cause as much possible harm.

For Power Tumblers, I would incorporate push press (jerks are fine but not necessary imo), besides squatting and some deadlifts. I think you can omit the Oly lifts if you do BW plyo. We can out with a jumping side to side bulgarian squat version that I liked. I like teaching the 2nd phase of the olympic lift mainly as a tool to get them to fully use their hips so perhaps jump shrugs from the knee would make sense.

For trampoline or double mini, I don't think it's that necessary but they are way different than Power Tumbling, imo.

I would put a bunch of the plank series and L and straddle work or HS presses in the beginning after WU and I would use more volume than 1m though they will hate you for it, heheh.

I have and would use something based off BtGB for WAG though it would not exactly be the WOD. Though a friend of mine, a gymnast thinks I should get the girls on rings, it tends to become a logistics program though I do program lots of skin the cats/360 pulls with them and support holds. Given more rings, we would do more ring pushups possibly even dipping for some of the girls who were strong dippers. One of the issue becomes the fact that just need to do more ring support work so they acclimate to it.

If you can get them past skin the cats, you can worry about front and back levers and I would incorporate the levers. I wouldn't really bother with developing towards the planche unless you wanted to do it for fun. Focusing on ring support strength is a much better endeavor, imo.

[Troy Rodriguez]

As far as the Achilles, They only train 2 hours a day 2 or 3 times a week. I can't imagine that they have overuse from that amount of training but I will look more into it. The stretching I have them doing are: flexed pike grabbing toes and lifting heels off the floor and standing lunge pushing heel to floor. Is there something else I should be doing?

As far as leg training. As we do not have any weight equipment I have them doing the following.

Sqau Jumps, Box jumps, SLS and various roll to jumps for height and distance, and a variation I am doing for GH strength I will explain below.

Lay flat on your back with your heels on a furniture slider. Lift your hips and body off the floor (arch hold) with hands above your head. Press your heels into the sliders and slide them back towards your glutes. The return to arch without letting you body touch the ground other than your shoulders and heels. I will try to post a video to help clarfiy. :shock:

Am I missing something important for legs?

I always do classes in the following order.

Warmup + Light stretch (10s or so)

S&C

Skills

Long Stretch during cool down

Your thoughts?

What are jump shrugs from the knees?

My S&C contains L's and Straddle L's and HeS or HS Press variations.

All planks are also contained in this period with feet elevated to shoulder height.

Oh and wrist series is directly after the warm-up and prior to wrist stretches. Is that the right place for these?

As far as rings...there is no way for me to get rings in the facility other than buying a full free standing ring setup which then becomes a logistics nightmare when I can only have one at a time working. I do however have access to uneven bars and have them do basic skins the cats and chin grip holds. Some pull-up and chin ups for the stronger ones. I also have a 20' rope they do "cirques" on or climb if not strong enough.

We also do a fair amount of HS work in tuck, straddle, and kick up against the wall. Also 2min of stomach to wall HS holds.

HLL and RLL from HeS or HS are thrown in during movement between events or while they are waiting on an apparatus.

In fact this might be lengthy but here is a normal night for my "advanced" kids (RO series and up).

Warmup - jump rope, wrist rotations, elbow rotations, should rotations, Hip rotation, Knee rotations, ankle rotations, Oblique stretch, Bridges, tricep and cuff stretches, wrist series, wrist stretches.

Slow tumble warm-up - bunny hops, Ski bunnies(hop side to side over line) ,Forward roll straight jump, HS forward roll, Forward roll to HS, Back Pike or Extension roll, BWO or Limber, FWO or Limber.

S&C - Planks (front, side, reverse) 1-2 min, Arch Hold 1-2min, Hollow Hold 1-2min, Squats (sumo or jumping), RLL (straddle or pike), GH Slides, Wall extensions, HS wall Runs, HS hold 1 min...sometimes i throw in CWW and kick up variations judging by their level of focus that day.

Skill Work - This goes into rod floor training, tumbl trak training, trampoline, and double mini.

During skill work as they are waiting to go or as they are switches apparatus they will do the following.

HLL on stall bars, Rope Climb, Skin the Cats

Cool Down Stretch - 1 minute holds of the following. Seated Straddle sides and pancake, Pike stretch, Shoulder stretch, Seated flex toe calf stretch in pike position, Glute stretch, all split varations.

What am I missing or are there things I can replace that will save time? Are there things I should throw in from time to time? Keep in mind that we are not a gymnastics facility and do not have access to any apparatus other than uneven bars, rope, rod floor, pit, trampoline, double, mini, tumbl trak, stall bars, low beam, and a cheer floor.

I really appreciate the community feedback as it helps me understand all the variations out there as I am sure I don't know half as much as some members on this board about programming S&C. So far I am seeing exceptional results in strength gains in the year I have been using/modifying this routine. I like to tinker a bit from time to time to see where they are but I am putting together individualized plans for each child on the team this year and having them do "their current level" of strength training for each move above for a whole SSC and testing each 8 weeks for progress to verify. Any feedback would help assure that I am going in the right direction.

Thanks!

[Blairbob]

At the last gym I was at, I was lucky to have DB up to 30lbs though we did have two bars that the other HC seemed to always keep downstairs and thus we rarely had access to them. Once the girls could start using the 30 pounders, I was going to have them start using barbells (because 35lb DB aren't cheap). For a previous program, I bought 2 cheap 1/1.25" (non olympic) straight bars at a used fitness store because I had plates that fit them and the fact that since the bars were slimmer my lil guys could hold them easily. It was about 25 bucks per bar and plates were 50c/lb. I'd look into it if you had the budget and were allowed to do so in your gym but you do what you can do.

Yeah that variation is sometimes called a glute bridge. I have my kids do the same thing using 1 or 2 feet possibly elevated as a progression towards the GHR. It's very similar to a hamstring curl.

A jump shrug from the knee is a drill that works on the 2nd pull of an olympic lift. This is pretty much it. You could start from mid thigh since that is more similar to the amount of hip flexion you are going to find in tumbling.

http://performancemenu.com/exercises/exercise.php?exerciseID=199

I prefer to stretch my wrists before doing the wrist series. I generally warmup doing pushups on knees with fingers forward, backward and turned in and on the back of my wrists. It's not a focus on pushup strength but to focus on getting the wrists moving so I would let the girls do them on their knees to warmup. Then I stretch my wrists and then do the wrist series.

As great as it would be to hang some rings off the UB, it's probably not going to happen in your gym. You could make some rings up and buy some straps and that might be a bit cheaper (and if you do, I would use rope instead of chain to thread through the homemade pvc rings since it's safer for the kids and looks less ghetto). You might not be allowed to hang the rings from the UB and as a WAG coach I don't think I would be very fond of it possibly either.

It looks pretty good. I used 8 week cycles for my boys and so we would test on week 9. Basically 6 cycles a year.

I prefer to do the harder S&C after skill work but many prefer to do it before. I think it gets down to at the end of the night, many just want to stretch out and go home. It's more difficult doing S&C at the end of the workout instead of the beginning. I prefer to do static strength after the WU and press HS (though you can and should be able to work HS and press HS work at anytime of the workout if they aren't too sapped).

To note, I no longer allow them to climb the rope with their legs after going to the GB seminar. A lot of my girls didn't like this as I would have them rope pullups in straddle or V instead and if they couldn't do that they would simply do rope body rows with their legs in a straddle having their heels anchor them. One of the HC coaches preferred V pullups or V rope climb but there is only of us to spot and with some of the bigger girls I wasn't into as it was more work for me than them. Hard decision with some tears.

[Troy Rodriguez]

Rope rows with ankles in straddle on the floor....don't know why i never thought of that one! Thanks!

...and thanks for all of the other support and help!

[Coach Sommer]

Due to the girls' ages, their achilles issues may be due to sever's disease:

... Sever's disease is a condition which causes pain where the achilles tendon attaches, at the back of the heel. Sever's disease occurs mainly in active children aged 8 to 15 years old. The point at which the Achilles tendon attaches to the heel becomes inflamed and the bone starts to crumble (a lot like Osgood Schlatters disease of the knee). Sever's disease is often associated with a rapid growth spurt. As the bones get longer, the muscles and tendons become tighter ...

As with all growth related issues in pubescent power athletes, it responds best to both rest and carefully monitoring volume. In direct contrast to the article above, in my personal experience I have found that achilles tendonitis issues respond far better to heat as a treatment modality than cold.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Troy Rodriguez]

Thanks for that information. It seems a lot of coaches forget about the "growth stages" that our athletes go through and how it affects things they have been doing for years all of a sudden. I recently prescribed her with twice a day stretching of the Calf as well as massage and heat as ice is usually during the first two days of an issue.

Made her take a week off of power tumbling and had her focus on core, upper body work, and stretching.

Thanks a ton for the information and reference to something i didn't even know had a name! :shock:

[Joshua Naterman]

Coach is spot on. If they are hitting a growth spurt you are most likely seeing excessive stress at the posterior calcaneal tubercle and that is the source of their pain.

Disclaimer: You obviously need to send them in for a proper evaluation. The following is informational only and is not intended to replace a physician's diagnosis OR to contradict one.

Step 1) You need to limit the intensity of the rebounding.

Step 2) You need to ice for 10-20 minutes immediately post workout, every workout, whether they are in pain or not.

Step 3) At all other times, including 10-15 minutes after the initial icing, gentle moist heat is going to be your best solution around the tendon but not the tubercle itself. Why? Heat speeds up the chemical reactions associated with healing. However, the heat can also promote ossification (bone growth) due to the increased inflammation (which brings extra water and calcium to the area) near or in the injured areas of the tendon if the injury is acute. This is primarily a concern with a contusion, but is something to keep in mind. NSAIDS are a terrible idea, they tend to make tendons weaker which will predispose your athletes to tears. This is technically a bone injury and not a tendon injury, so keep that in mind. As long as there is circulation in the area ossification of the tendon should not be a problem. The only time that should be a concern is if an athlete bangs the tendon on equipment or another athlete and bruises the tendon. If THAT happens, use ice only for the first 3 weeks.

Step 4) Soft tissue work for the entire heel cord and the hamstrings. This should minimize passive stress in the Achilles tendon, but if it is a rapid growth spurt all you can do is wait it out. Still, this will help to mitigate the pain.

Step 5) Flexibility work for the entire heel cord. I'd say hamstrings but I'm pretty sure that's already in place! Again, a rapid growth spurt may cause symptoms that are impossible to completely keep under control. Maintaining excellent gastroc AND soleus flexibility is very important. That means bent knee AND straight leg calf stretching! This will be most effective immediately post SMR or active release, but use these stretches even if there is no SMR or other soft tissue work. THese will be primarily preventative in nature, once the tendon is over-stretched and the calcaneal tubercle is partially pulled off of the heel you just have to wait for their bodies to stop growing so fast so that the apophysis(that's what this is technically called) fills in.. Frustrating, but it is temporary frustration.

Preventative measures:

Try to work on correcting running and tumbling to minimize foot eversion (toes pointing out). I know this is sometimes necessary or unavoidable in landings, but you don't want this in running. I see SO many gymnasts run this way... It puts excessive strain on the achilles tendon compared to a 'proper' neutral foot strike and gait.

Maintain excellent hamstring, gastrocnemius, and soleus flexibility. Specifically include dorsiflexion resistance exercise.

Consistent soft tissue work of the lower leg, concentrating on the gastrocs and the soleus.

Tests to help differentiate Sever's from an Achilles sprain:

1) Point tenderness just anterior to the attachment of the achilles on the heel. Typically you will do a squeeze test, squeezing the BONE and not the tendon just in front of the achilles tendon around the lower third of the heel. If that hurts, they probably have Sever's to some degree but only an x-ray can tell you for sure.

2) Standing on tip-toe causes pain. This will hurt in both cases.

3) Passive dorsiflexion. This typically hurts with a tendon injury but usually not with Sever's.

Don't do these if you aren't comfortable, but you need to insist that the parents take the kids in and have them checked out. An X-ray will tell right away if it is Sever's.

Bottom line is exactly what Coach said: Don't let them do too much in practice and try to encourage the parents to limit excessive bouncing around. Only time will truly resolve Sever's.

[Blairbob]

Thankyou Coach for that anecdote. I'll try to remember that if I end up coaching again.

I'm of the opinion that most female gymnasts in WAG tend to do too much volume. However, sometimes it's also due to a lot of volume with weak bodies that eventually break down. Some WAG coaches do not seem to care if they are dealing with severs or OSDSCH. Some kids are hard pressed to not keep on doing it or won't tell you something is wrong.

Thanks for the very informative post (yet again), Sliz. I guess I'll know who to call when I need to bring a PT in if I ever have some big time athletes.