Lean Gains, Fasted Training, and What Qualifies as Fasting

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Hi, I was reading the lean gains website (http://www.leangains.com/2010/04/leangains-guide.html), and I thought of a few questions.

First of all, I'm attending college now (17 credit hours), so I'm very busy (college plus two part-time jobs). I train in the morning at about 4-4:30 am to about 6 am or a bit later. I get whey and glutamine before workouts and whey and glutamine after workouts. After that, I try to sip about 15-20 grams of whey mixed in tea every 1-1.5 hours. Sometimes I don't manage it, though, because of my tight class schedule. Usually I get about 100 grams within the 8 hours I am at college. I eat my day's first real meal when I get home at about 4-5 pm. Sometimes at 6 pm or later on work days. On work days I bring more whey-tea.

My FIRST question: Does this count as fasted training? I'm not sure what the author of LG is actually saying, so I will just quote a section from the above link:

• "Fasted training
  Training is initiated on an empty stomach and after ingestion of 10 g BCAA or similar amino acid mixture. This "pre-workout" meal is not counted towards the feeding phase. Technically, training is not completely fasted - that would be detrimental. The pre-workout protein intake, with its stimulatory effect on protein synthesis and metabolism, is a crucial compromise to optimize results. The 8-hour feeding phase starts with the post-workout meal.
  Sample setup
  11.30-12 AM or 5-15 minutes pre-workout: 10 g BCAA
  12-1 PM: Training
  1 PM: Post-workout meal (largest meal of the day).
  4 PM: Second meal.
  9 PM: Last meal before the fast.
  Calories and carbs are tapered down throughout the day in the example above."

He refers to BCAA's and protein as the same thing. Maybe he usually eats protein in solid form, and that is the source of the confusion; however, I eat mine primarily in liquid form. Any insight on this?

My SECOND question: What do you think of the LG methods? I know Sliz likes the methods a lot, but (if I remember correctly) he says it's not necessary to fast completely and that you can get the same or better effects from just keeping the blood saturated with amino acids with a bit of protein every hour (basically what I do at college).

Now, I am about to come into a bit of money (Pell Grant) because I don't have to pay anything for college because of all the scholarships I got (from ACT and GED scores) -- thank God! I couldn't afford it otherwise. Anyway, I am about to purchase trueprotein's BCAA boost and I am planning on spending a month or two of workouts getting 15-20 grams before and after them.

What do YOU think?

Respectfully,

[Larry Roseman]

Fasted training per LG is low-intensity cardio for 30-40 mins, not strength or GB you understand yes?

You might burn a bit more fat with this approach.

However if getting more sleep is an option, this may be a better choice.

Sleep burns fat too, lol.

But It sounds like you're doing fasted strength training, but it's not wise to do strength training fasted.

Using whey before/after is fine depending on the amount. 20g whey is equiv to 5g BCAA, etc.

LG usually uses whole food, except before fasted training.

Are you trying to bulk, recomp or lose fat/weight?

Leangains (IF in general) is good for bulking without putting on much fat,

or losing fat without dropping much muscle depending on your emphasis.

It's possible to do both - but rare to do a lot of both. Rare, but not impossible,

in young male fairly new trainees.

Eating protein reguarly is the standard BB approach. Sipping whey constantly is taking

it to the extreme. The body essentially sips protein from the gut as it were,

if you're eating normal meals which digest slowly. LG is a rather antithetical (heretical)

in traditional BB terms, with 3-4 big meals / day. Try it, you may like it. Or not.

You seem to enjoy complications. Why not keep it simple, until that doesn't work anymore?

I'm not expecting an answer - rarely get one!

Fin.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Dear Fin -

Thanks for the reply! I did not know a lot of the things you have mentioned.

Fasted training per LG is low-intensity cardio for 30-40 mins, not strength or GB you understand yes?

You might burn a bit more fat with this approach.

However if getting more sleep is an option, this may be a better choice.

Sleep burns fat too, lol.

But It sounds like you're doing fasted strength training, but it's not wise to do strength training fasted.

Using whey before/after is fine depending on the amount. 20g whey is equiv to 5g BCAA, etc.

LG usually uses whole food, except before fasted training.

Low intensity cardio only? I didn't know that at all. I am (now) doing sprints on Tuesday, Thursday, and most of the time Saturday, but it's medium to high intensity, not low.

Doing LG or otherwise wouldn't effect my sleep, though, and I don't do fasted strength training ever. I get whey and glutamine before, and whey and glutamine afterwards.

Are you trying to bulk, recomp or lose fat/weight?

Leangains (IF in general) is good for bulking without putting on much fat,

or losing fat without dropping much muscle depending on your emphasis.

It's possible to do both - but rare to do a lot of both. Rare, but not impossible,

in young male fairly new trainees.

Eating protein reguarly is the standard BB approach. Sipping whey constantly is taking

it to the extreme. The body essentially sips protein from the gut as it were,

if you're eating normal meals which digest slowly. LG is a rather antithetical (heretical)

in traditional BB terms, with 3-4 big meals / day. Try it, you may like it. Or not.

I'm not sure what you mean by "recomp", but what I want to do is bulk while limiting fat gain or actually decreasing fat percentage.

IF does seem to be ideal for this, and it would fit into my routine since I spend all day at college (no eating unless I bring whey-tea), and I eat a lot in the evening and night.

You seem to enjoy complications. Why not keep it simple, until that doesn't work anymore?

I'm not expecting an answer - rarely get one!

Fin.

Why would I not answer you? I greatly appreciate your answers to my questions in this thread and in the carb:fat ratio. I don't enjoy making things complicated, but I am constantly reading, rereading, or revisiting new/old concepts and the more I learn the more I am interested in how it/they are related or be applied to my training.

At any rate, I don't want to just do something until I figure out that it's not working anymore. I want to know why and how it's working. Sometimes this gets in the way of just deciding on a direction, but once I figure out something that I feel is closest to what I need I work like mad at it. I also work hard while trying to figure it out. I'm not just sitting at my computer dreaming about what I could achieve if I did X or Y, I maintain my training while looking for ways to improve its results.

Thanks again! I think I'll try doing IF every Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday and see how it goes. I'll also do a lot of extra reading on the LG site to get a better understanding of its principles and how it works.

[Larry Roseman]

Dear Fin -

Why would I not answer you? I greatly appreciate your answers to my questions in this thread and in the carb:fat ratio. I don't enjoy making things complicated, but I am constantly reading, rereading, or revisiting new/old concepts and the more I learn the more I am interested in how it/they are related or be applied to my training.

At any rate, I don't want to just do something until I figure out that it's not working anymore. I want to know why and how it's working. Sometimes this gets in the way of just deciding on a direction, but once I figure out something that I feel is closest to what I need I work like mad at it. I also work hard while trying to figure it out. I'm not just sitting at my computer dreaming about what I could achieve if I did X or Y, I maintain my training while looking for ways to improve its results.

Thanks again! I think I'll try doing IF every Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday and see how it goes. I'll also do a lot of extra reading on the LG site to get a better understanding of its principles and how it works.

You're welcome PS! Just wasn't sure if I anyone was listening, lol. My bad. No prob

Sounds like basically the right approach. Martin actually feels that too much emphasis is placed

on having this or that nutrition at precisely the right moment instead of focusing on making

progress in the gym, on attaining your PBs or best results. In other words, nutrition isn't magic: the work

is what counts.

Anyway, recomp is basically keep the same weight, but "converting" fat to muscle. Bulking generally means adding lean muscle mass, and total additonal weight. The trick to LG is eating excess calories, like 20% above normal, when you are doing your high intensity weight training or GB - followed by day(s) of caloric deficit, when you are performing only low-intensity cardio. Generally there are more carbs eaten on the high-intensity (weights/sprints) days than on the low-intensity days, since obviously you need

more energy to perform well. The ratio of high to low intensity days determines whether if you will bulk, get lean or just recomp.

If your net intake is about your maintenance level, your body should recomp - gradually. If you are eating at an overall deficit,

it is difficult to really put on muscle. You can preserve and strengthen it, but adding mass is unlikely. So knowing your body,

and the amount of food it requires for maintenance is still important.

The second trick to LG and IF in general is that people find sticking to easy, so it tends to work.

If you can't stick with the plan, even if it is good in theory, it won't work. Because LG encourages at least a few large

meals per day people feel full, and not like they are dieting in a constant state of semi-starvation. And because

your body is used to the fasting overnight, it is usually not so hard to extend that another 5 or 6 hours. At least

after some practice, without feeling starved either ( a lot of the good stuff happens there).

There are probably as many recommendations regarding fasted activity as there are people.

I personally do not have the energy for sprints until later in the day, after I eat.

And I for sure wouldn't have any energy left after performing them.

But whether it works for you is the main thing.

Good luck reading his site - i find it slows my browser to a halt.

This is what Martin says about HIIT (which may or may not be what you're doing) in general though.

http://www.leangains.com/2009/07/questions-answers.html

[Quick Start Test Smith]

No problem 8)

Anyway, recomp is basically keep the same weight, but "converting" fat to muscle. Bulking generally means adding lean muscle mass, and total additonal weight. The trick to LG is eating excess calories, like 20% above normal, when you are doing your high intensity weight training or GB - followed by day(s) of caloric deficit, when you are performing only low-intensity cardio. Generally there are more carbs eaten on the high-intensity (weights/sprints) days than on the low-intensity days, since obviously you need

more energy to perform well. The ratio of high to low intensity days determines whether if you will bulk, get lean or just recomp.

If your net intake is about your maintenance level, your body should recomp - gradually. If you are eating at an overall deficit,

it is difficult to really put on muscle. You can preserve and strengthen it, but adding mass is unlikely. So knowing your body,

and the amount of food it requires for maintenance is still important.

That's very helpful. I do strength training on M, W, and F and sprints on T, Th, and Sa. If I've calculated correctly, I need about 2700 kcal on a daily bases, but I'll decrease the sprint days to about 2300 kcal and increase the heavy days to about 3000 kcal. More carbs on cardio days, lots of protein all the time.

I'm still reading a lot on LG, so not sure quite how this will work yet, but perhaps a short (4-6 week) recomp period plus another short (4-6 week) gaining period would be appropriate... this is all very interesting.

The second trick to LG and IF in general is that people find sticking to easy, so it tends to work.

If you can't stick with the plan, even if it is good in theory, it won't work. Because LG encourages at least a few large

meals per day people feel full, and not like they are dieting in a constant state of semi-starvation. And because

your body is used to the fasting overnight, it is usually not so hard to extend that another 5 or 6 hours. At least

after some practice, without feeling starved either ( a lot of the good stuff happens there).

There are probably as many recommendations regarding fasted activity as there are people.

I personally do not have the energy for sprints until later in the day, after I eat.

And I for sure wouldn't have any energy left after performing them.

But whether it works for you is the main thing.

Good luck reading his site - i find it slows my browser to a halt.

This is what Martin says about HIIT (which may or may not be what you're doing) in general though.

http://www.leangains.com/2009/07/questions-answers.html

I read that article about HIIT. It's good! Although I will forever be an sports/combat based athlete, I'm just going to spend the next few months getting into general good shape. Cut down, bulk up a bit (maintain sameish weight though). After I get into pretty good shape, I'll "re-specify" my training towards pure athletic development.

I don't have any problem with waking up at 4:30 and doing sprints. I actually feel better (although tired) afterwards than I do before! I do like the conditioning aspect of HIIT, but I don't do 15 seconds by 45 seconds as in the example given by Martin in the article. I'm doing all kinds of variations. For example, 6-10x40 seconds w/ 2 minutes active rest, 10x60 second fast run/lightish sprint w/1-1.5 min brisk walk as active rest. I will mix the HIIT with kind of longer efforts as well 2-3 times a week. I'll have to see if cardio three times a week is doable...

I appreciate it!

[Larry Roseman]

That's very helpful. I do strength training on M, W, and F and sprints on T, Th, and Sa. If I've calculated correctly, I need about 2700 kcal on a daily bases, but I'll decrease the sprint days to about 2300 kcal and increase the heavy days to about 3000 kcal. More carbs on cardio days, lots of protein all the time.

I'm still reading a lot on LG, so not sure quite how this will work yet, but perhaps a short (4-6 week) recomp period plus another short (4-6 week) gaining period would be appropriate... this is all very interesting.

Thanks Patrick

The only thing is - it may be a typo on your part - is that Martin recommends more carbs on the non-cardio days.

That's where you'll get some of your added calories.

Also cardio does not have to be hard, it can be just walking a few miles.

Just something keep the fat burning at a low simmer.

But it is not always neccessary.

I counted doing yardwork for this kind of cardio.

If you are looking at primarily dropping fat and increasing muscle for a while, HIIT 3x week may be too much.

It is a form of strength training for the legs really, so if you are doing legs during your strength workout (?),

they are not getting much recovery. But if you're not doing legs it might be ok.

My suggestion would be to consider reducing HIIT to 2x week. You can bump it back up when you are focusing on

pure athletic development, power, explosiveness, etc. That would give you more time for low-intensity work.

It sounds interesting yes. I've done it for about 8 weeks, with a fat loss emphasis rather than recomp,

and dropped about 10 pounds fat and added perhaps 2 in muscle. I still could do with losing an inch or

two on the waist, but at 6'/170lbs I'm concerned I'd have to get down to 155 before the waist fat disappears.

It's the last thing to go

Right now I'm ramping up for 5K training 2-3x week - for about 6 weeks, combined with

GB 1-2x and occassional tennis, and just eating perhaps 25% protein, 50% carb, and 25% fat.

I do need to get more veggies down the gullet though. I like them - just have to make the effort

to include them in more meals!

Regards,

Fin

[Quick Start Test Smith]

The only thing is - it may be a typo on your part - is that Martin recommends more carbs on the non-cardio days.

That's where you'll get some of your added calories.

Also cardio does not have to be hard, it can be just walking a few miles.

Just something keep the fat burning at a low simmer.

But it is not always neccessary.

I counted doing yardwork for this kind of cardio.

If you are looking at primarily dropping fat and increasing muscle for a while, HIIT 3x week may be too much.

It is a form of strength training for the legs really, so if you are doing legs during your strength workout (?),

they are not getting much recovery. But if you're not doing legs it might be ok.

My suggestion would be to consider reducing HIIT to 2x week. You can bump it back up when you are focusing on

pure athletic development, power, explosiveness, etc. That would give you more time for low-intensity work.

That makes sense. I'm thinking about one HIIT session and one 45-60 minute fast walking session.

It sounds interesting yes. I've done it for about 8 weeks, with a fat loss emphasis rather than recomp,

and dropped about 10 pounds fat and added perhaps 2 in muscle. I still could do with losing an inch or

two on the waist, but at 6'/170lbs I'm concerned I'd have to get down to 155 before the waist fat disappears.

It's the last thing to go

Wow, nice! 10 lbs in 8 weeks sounds good to me. Although if I lost that much I'd look skinny!

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Hey, Fin, why do you think strength training shouldn't be done fasted (i.e. with only BCAA's before and after)?

I'm looking at this page here (http://www.leangains.com/2010/05/early- ... ining.html)

Early morning fasted training

Here's a sample setup for a client that trains early in the morning and prefers the feeding phase at noon or later.

6 AM: 5-15 minutes pre-workout: 10 g BCAA.

6-7 AM: Training.

8 AM: 10 g BCAA.

10 AM: 10 g BCAA

12-1 PM: The "real" post-workout meal (largest meal of the day). Start of the 8 hour feeding-window.

8-9 PM: Last meal before the fast.

For the sake of convenience, I recommend getting BCAA in the form of powder and not tabs. Simply mix 30 g of BCAA powder in a shake and drink one third of it every other hour starting 5-15 minutes pre-workout. Tabs are cheaper, but much more of a hassle (you're going to have to pop a lot of tabs). Check my supplements guide for specific brand recommendations.

Protein synthesis

I had some concerns before deciding on incorporating and recommending this protocol on a wider scale. After rigorous testing, these concerns have not proven to be valid.

My first concern was that results would be compromised if the post-workout meal was pushed back several hours. I haven't seen any trend, such as lack of progress or loss of strength and muscle mass, to indicate that this is the case. The results are on par with those obtained with the other protocols.

Consuming BCAAs every other hour through the fast is sufficient to keep protein synthesis stimulated and prevent protein breakdown. If protein intake is completely omitted, it would undoubtedly affect results negatively. Thus the compromise of ingesting BCAA pre- and post-workout through the fast, before the real post-workout meal, which is initiated at the usual time of the feeding phase.

Will we still derive the benefits from regular fasting if we consume small amounts of protein throughout the fast post-workout? Yes. If carbs are omitted, the increased insulin sensitivity will quickly bring back basal insulin to fasted state levels despite consuming 120 calories worth of fairly insulinogenic amino acids. The fasted state is almost fully maintained post-workout.

When the post-workout meal comes around is also when muscle protein synthesis is beginning to take off. Though muscle protein synthesis is acutely stimulated post-workout in response to resistance training and protein intake, studies show some latency in regards to elevation and peak. Protein synthesis starts to climb about 3-4 hours post-workout, reaches a peak at the 24-hour-mark and returns close to baseline values 36 hours post-workout (or 48 hours depending on who you ask; studies on this topic show slightly different results regarding length and peak of elevation). Even if you push back the post-workout meal a few hours, you will be in the fed state at a time when nutrient partitioning is optimized and muscle growth likely to occur.

By consuming small amounts of BCAA through the fasted state we are stimulating synthesis and halting breakdown. A few hours later, when protein synthesis is increasing, we enter the fed state. The latency seen with protein synthesis in response to training, and the fact that we have amino acids (BCAA) in circulation pre- and post-workout, goes a long way in explaining why clients following this protocol get equal results to those following other protocols.

Do you know if he's referring to strength or cardio sessions? It sounds to me like he's referring to either.

I train from about 4-4:30 am to around 6:00 am, and I have to leave for college around 7:30-8:30 (depending on the day). This is what I'm tentatively thinking of: 10 grams BCAA before workout, 10 grams BCAA right afterwards, 10 grams more two hours afterwards, and then 10 grams once again 4 hours afterwards. At about 11:30 (when I get my college lunch break), I'd start the feeding stage and consume about 100-150 grams of protein between 11:30 and 4:30 (when I get out of college). Eat, eat, eat when I get back and start the next fast at about 8:30 pm.

The thing is, from about 7am-5pm on most days of the week except Fri, Sat, and Sun I am going to be either at work or at college and I can't really bring a solid meal to either. I can get protein powder periodically at both, but I can't actually bring a solid meal.

From what I've read on Martin's site, it SHOULD work okay... but let me know if you see me making any dumb mistakes in my plans. I do that sometimes

[Rower]

From my personal experience, the Leangains Method works great!

However, it is not very flexible. It is strictly oriented on a 3 Days a Week High Intensity Training Workout Schedule, and will probably not work very well with the WODs.

I did a Bodyweight EDT Program combined with LG and was very pleased with the results I got.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

From my personal experience, the Leangains Method works great!

However, it is not very flexible. It is strictly oriented on a 3 Days a Week High Intensity Training Workout Schedule, and will probably not work very well with the WODs.

I did a Bodyweight EDT Program combined with LG and was very pleased with the results I got.

Glad to hear it, Rower! But I'm sure I can adapt the LG approach somehow... After all, even if I can't use it for the strength training days (but I think I can), I can still use it for the three remaining cardio and rest days.

[Larry Roseman]

Yeah it's pretty clear from that post that he's referring to weight training.

Weight training completely fasted is not a great idea.

Using BCAA, if you can afford them, is a comprimise he is satisfied with.

His recommendations do evolve, which he refers to in this post.

It's a fairly recent post, so I would go with that. Good find.

I've seen it written the way I've described it somewhere, however would have to hunt for it.

Regarding your situation, if you are training from 5-6am and not eating until 11:30, then you

are around 6 hours out from training. I think he would rather your feeding window start

3-4 hours rather than 6. Slizz says within 4 is best. However, would it matter very very much?

Probably not.

P.S. Probably I lost 8 fat and added 1 muscle in the 8 weeks.

Later on I did 3 weeks of a low-deficit regular diet and lost the other 2 fat pounds.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Good!

I'm planning on having Up Days and Down Days, too. The first as 2800-3000 kcal days and the second as 1300-1500 kcal days. I think Sliz refers to this as a combination of lean gains and feast/famine. The difference in kcal will be primarily in fat and carbs. Protein will always stay high.

It's true that 6 hours is a bit long, but I will be taking 10 grams of BCAA directly afterwards, two hours aftwards, and 4 hours afterwards. At the 6 hour mark I will start dosing high protein. I should be okay, but I'll pay close attention to how I feel for the next few weeks. Edit = Berkhan says that whey is 25 percent BCAA, so in getting 10 grams of BCAA, it's almost like getting 40 grams of whey.

By the way, did you see that video of him deadlifting 600 lbs for three reps wile fasted? I think it was on bodybuilding.com. Pretty dang impressive! Definitely a testimonial to IF being perfectly conducive to strength development.

[Larry Roseman]

Good!

I'm planning on having Up Days and Down Days, too. The first as 2800-3000 kcal days and the second as 1300-1500 kcal days. I think Sliz refers to this as a combination of lean gains and feast/famine. The difference in kcal will be primarily in fat and carbs. Protein will always stay high.

It's true that 6 hours is a bit long, but I will be taking 10 grams of BCAA directly afterwards, two hours aftwards, and 4 hours afterwards. At the 6 hour mark I will start dosing high protein. I should be okay, but I'll pay close attention to how I feel for the next few weeks. Edit = Berkhan says that whey is 25 percent BCAA, so in getting 10 grams of BCAA, it's almost like getting 40 grams of whey.

By the way, did you see that video of him deadlifting 600 lbs for three reps wile fasted? I think it was on bodybuilding.com. Pretty dang impressive! Definitely a testimonial to IF being perfectly conducive to strength development.

Sounds like a plan! It is hard to see results in 4-6 weeks, but hopefully you will!

Yah, he is a strong highly-trained dude. Haven't seen that video yet. But he walks the walk, which you have to respect.

[daphaniee]

Hey guys, I have been doing leangains for 3 days now and I really like it. It's the only thing that I feel is easy to stick with. The only thing that I'm trying to organize is my weight lifting days. I'm trying to read more and I'm always watching my macros. The ultimate goal is fat loss... I'm a female so this may take a little longer than it would with a male. I used to do steady state cardio (trail running) but now I think I'm just going to trail run in intervals and keep it under 3 miles (on non-training days). There is an obstacle race I signed up for next month that I have to be ready for too. I will be updating in my training log.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Hey guys, I have been doing leangains for 3 days now and I really like it. It's the only thing that I feel is easy to stick with. The only thing that I'm trying to organize is my weight lifting days. I'm trying to read more and I'm always watching my macros. The ultimate goal is fat loss... I'm a female so this may take a little longer than it would with a male. I used to do steady state cardio (trail running) but now I think I'm just going to trail run in intervals and keep it under 3 miles (on non-training days). There is an obstacle race I signed up for next month that I have to be ready for too. I will be updating in my training log.

Sounds good, Daphaniee! I like leangains a lot, too!

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Hey, Fin, I've been doing more reading on leangains, and I found this piece of writing that definitely clarifies Martin's position on fasted strength training.

4. Fasted Weight Training. Heavy weight training jacks up catecholamines very high and heavy training in the fasted state creates the most powerful response. Heavy training and fasting are both stressors to which the body responds with increased catecholamine output; in combination it seems the effect is synergistic. How can we combine everything mentioned up to this point and heavy weight training to facilitate stubborn fat loss? Like I've said in the past, I'm not a fan of using weight training as a means to create a calorie deficit. I also do not recommend training completely fasted, since that would be highly counterproductive to the anabolic response. But I've found a way around all this.

[...]

Source: http://www.leangains.com/search/label/Fasted%20Training

I suppose he defines completely fasted training as training without BCAA's.

[William Bateson]

Patrick,

I've just come across this thread today, so you may not even be keeping up with it anymore, but I thought I'd add my unsolicited 2 cents. Given a daily structure like you provided:

430-600 Workout

730-800 Leave for college

1130 Lunch

430 Done with college

830 Assume your gearing down for bed

I would structure my meals accordingly:

415 BCAA's

500 Large meal, high protein and carbs, and prepare meals/shakes (this means you have to cut your workout short, I know)

1130 Large meal, high protein and moderate carbs

200-500 Meal, moderate protein and no carbs but high fat (you have to be able to sneak a quick meal in sometime there, I like eggs and bacon for this)

600-700 Shake, no protein and moderate carbs and high fat (I go with berries and cream/yogurt/coconut milk/etc...)

Why I think this meal plan is ideal:

Your highest intake of carbs are focused around your workout, and your workout is shorter now so you should be working harder to get in what you NEED to get in during that time exercise wise. You are still following a fasting scheme, only now it is protein fasting, which still allows autophagy to occur (if I recall correctly), rather than all food fasting. Whole meals will always be better than liquid, I just don't think that gets enough emphasis. It's more expensive, it's harder to prepare, and takes longer to consume; but it is all those things for a REASON. Shakes just cannot compare to eating whole foods, if you can make it happen than do it, no excuses.

I understand this is a little rambling and possibly incoherent at parts, but I'm just throwing it together quick, if you have any questions on any particular parts I'll do my best to answer...somewhat coherently.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Thanks for the indepth post, Bill. I couldn't do that routine, but I do have question about it. How can that be considered fasting?

[William Bateson]

It's certainly stretching the limits of what can be considered fasting based off of the time table you would be working with, but from 5am to 2pm is only 9 hours. One of the major benefits of fasting as I understand it is autophagy, a kind of cellular cleaning process. But this does not require complete fasting, only protein fasting. So by eating two large protein meals early in the day and trying to sneak in one smaller one within a reasonable window (I'm sure 7-8 hours is preferable) you get some of the benefits of complete fasting, but with the luxury of being able to eat one last meal before going to bed.

I've followed this routine for a little while and liked it because I honestly don't feel hungry at all during the day. Sure I wake up hungry, but I don't go to bed hungry. Many of the people who's opinions I respect (not to say I don't respect Martin's work) do not recommend complete fasting, especially if athletic performance is important. Again though, this is the way I do things, people much stronger and much bigger than me do things differently (but so do people weaker and smaller). It's important to find something that works for you and your goals, and if your current setup is getting you what you want than why change it!

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Thanks, Bill!

[Rower]

Patrick,

if you are still interested in the Leangains Protocol have a look at the reddit LG Faq:

http://examine.com/leangains-faq/

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Thanks, Rower! That's a FANTASTIC page. I've been doing it for the last few weeks and I've been loving it. It's been keeping me lean despite not actually training for the last 8 days (besides martial arts training). I had so much stuff to do that I couldn't train without not getting hardly any sleep. I'm restarting the intense training this coming Monday so I'll really be able to see the benefits.

[Wheelson]

Good Morning gents!

I've been reading about the lean gains protocol and the one that is most feasible for me is the morning workout schedule.

http://www.leangains.com/2010/05/early- ... ining.html

6 AM: 5-15 minutes pre-workout: 10 g BCAA.

6-7 AM: Training.

8 AM: 10 g BCAA.

10 AM: 10 g BCAA

12-1 PM: The "real" post-workout meal (largest meal of the day). Start of the 8 hour feeding-window.

8-9 PM: Last meal before the fast.

it would be shifted about one hour later, but not much difference. I would like to focus on gaining some mass, and doing some recomp in the next few weeks, but this program counters what I have learned about PWO nutrition. would putting it off that long affect my gains? would completely be missing the anabolic window? I'm just not sure if this setup would work as is. any thoughts?

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Looks good to me! That's basically what I'm doing!

[Larry Roseman]

Good Morning gents!

I've been reading about the lean gains protocol and the one that is most feasible for me is the morning workout schedule.

http://www.leangains.com/2010/05/early- ... ining.html

6 AM: 5-15 minutes pre-workout: 10 g BCAA.

6-7 AM: Training.

8 AM: 10 g BCAA.

10 AM: 10 g BCAA

12-1 PM: The "real" post-workout meal (largest meal of the day). Start of the 8 hour feeding-window.

8-9 PM: Last meal before the fast.

it would be shifted about one hour later, but not much difference. I would like to focus on gaining some mass, and doing some recomp in the next few weeks, but this program counters what I have learned about PWO nutrition. would putting it off that long affect my gains? would completely be missing the anabolic window? I'm just not sure if this setup would work as is. any thoughts?

He certainly considers the initial hours post-workout important but is satisfied that the BCAA addresses those needs, until mealtime.

It keeps calories low enough to not break the fast. I don't think he's saying if you're not fasting that it's better to

take BCAA instead of a complete protein and possibly some carbs PWO.

The rest of the link explains it: "Protein synthesis starts to climb about 3-4 hours post-workout, reaches a peak at the 24-hour-mark and returns close to baseline values 36 hours post-workout (or 48 hours depending on who you ask; studies on this topic show slightly different results regarding length and peak of elevation). Even if you push back the post-workout meal a few hours, you will be in the fed state at a time when nutrient partitioning is optimized and muscle growth likely to occur."