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barrett

RTO Dips vs. Bulgarian Dips

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barrett

I'm about to wrap up a SSC in which I'm doing 5x5 of Bulgarian Dips. In BtGB, Bulg. Dips are the pinnacle of dipping. However, I messed around with RTO dips on a day where I was training MU's and was only able to do 4; they seemed more challenging than Bulg. Dips, although that might be b/c I never trained them before, or did them in conjunction with MU's. So, I was wondering what you guys thought: although not mentioned in BtGB, RTO Dips seem to be a beneficial exercise. Are they? Could RTO dips be a logical progression from the Bulg. Dips for my next SSC? Thanks!

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Blairbob

Some of us think of them harder than Bulgarian dips but Coach S has commented that he did not find them preferable.

You could try weighting them or move onto a handstand pushup progression on rings.

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barrett

thanks, blairbob. i'm going to move to the HeSPU on rings.

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John Sapinoso
Some of us think of them harder than Bulgarian dips but Coach S has commented that he did not find them preferable.

happen to know where or what he said in particular??

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Seiji

What's an RTO dip?

I always found bulgarian dips easy, even on rings. Never tried them weighted though.

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Blairbob

RingTurnedOut

feel free to dig with the search engine. a long time ago.

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Seiji

Why not just do korean dips? The instability of the rings can't be so different, can they?

Also, I looked it up after you told me to. To be honest, I'm sort of glad I didn't look past the first few pages upon realizing it's the last few of 281 results.

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Coach Sommer

If you have always found Bulgarian Dips on the rings easy, you have been doing them incorrectly.

Slizzardman once felt the same until I corrected his form at a GB Seminar. He previously shared his thoughts on the necessary corrections; a forum search should turn up the post.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

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barrett

thanks for the heads up, coach.

i haven't *always* thought bulgarian dips to be difficult, although it is possible i'm doing them incorrectly. when i first started doing them i thought they were easy, which i thought was odd for an exercise rated a '5' in Btgb, so i went back and re-read the book; turns out i was doing them incorrectly! i was failing to keep the elbows and shoulders in line in the same plane of movement. i've since been much more cognizant about trying to keep them correctly aligned, and after about 4 months of training them on pressing days, i'm able to do 5x5. nonetheless, i'm going to search for the slizzardman post you referenced to try and make absolutely certain i'm performing the exercise correctly before progressing to ring hs.

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Blairbob

korean dips on a single rail are not as difficult as RTO dips especially with a similar lean in the front.

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Seiji

I did a few searches for Slizzardman's post but I can't find it, I'll just PM him about it and edit this post to contain it.

Bulgarian dips don't mean your hands go wide at the bottom and then come together at the top of the dip. That's what I thought for a long time and that is wrong. That DOES happen, but that is not what the main purpose of the exercise is, that is simply a consequence of doing the movement correctly.

To get a feel for the correct position, just do an upside down wall slide. Stand with your back to a wall and have your arms down at your sides, palms on the wall.

Now, without letting your forearms OR elbows OR hands OR upper arms OR back/hips come off the wall, raise your arms so that your fingers are pointing down and your elbows are at or near shoulder height! THAT is a bulgarian dip. That is why they are hard. At first ROM will be fairly small for most and that's OK! Let it build up slowly, and don't increase too quickly. This is extremely hard on the shoulders and has to be adapted to gradually.

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barrett

holy smokes! that certainly clarifies it! i tried the 'backwards wall slide slizzardman recommended and could not raise elbows to shoulder height. i guess i'll be working on bulg. dips for quite some more time. and, i stand corrected......again :oops:

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Hubert Häggman

What would be the best way to increase shoulder mobility needed to complete full ROM bulgarian dip? I tried the backwards wall slide and my ROM was very little. I also find for example cuban presses impossible to do due poor shoulder mobility.

I have tried stretching external rotators but the progress is very slow. I have also tried laying on floor with tennisball under my shoulder to massage whatever trigger points my external rotators have. I think its teres minor that is extremely painfull. http://laurensfitness.com/2008/02/29/te ... pper-body/ I do it like the last image on this site. Maybe I do that too hard because after that my shoulder hurts a bit the next day, especially internal rotation.

Sorry if there's some grammar mistakes, because English is not my first language.

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Blairbob

xCp-YynBEvE

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Warrior'sSuite
In BtGB, Bulg. Dips are the pinnacle of dipping.

That's gotta be a joke.

There's more than 4 dips rated harder than the bulgarians in the book.

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barrett

it's no joke, although i could be misreading the book. bulg. dips are rated a 5.

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Joshua Naterman

Yes, the reverse wall slide will quickly make people realize how difficult the Bulgarian dips are. The reason is simple: The shoulder position is the same as Iron Cross. This is a beginning IC prep element. If you can't do these properly, and I am just now able to do a few halfway decently sometimes, you are nowhere near where you need to be if you want a Cross in your future.

I have found that soft tissue work all over the upper body has been key in improving my mobility, personally. You can also start off with a ridiculously small ROM and just slowly make it bigger over time. I suggest doing both, and do the reverse wall slides until you can at least get past 60 degrees before you try a much smaller ROM on the rings.

Bulg dips are definitely a LOT easier on PB because you do not have anywhere near as much shoulder rotation AND you are braced by the bars. The rings offer no such quarter.

As for ratings, try and keep in mind that there is no true linear progression from one exercise to the next! DIFFICULTY is rated, but it should be obvious that RTO dips are going to help more with reverse MU, back lever curls and planche/maltese strength than they will with IC, and that Bulg dips will do more for IC than they will for planche or maltese. You should be working them all. Just a single set a day will make a HUGE difference as well as make for an excellent warm up that is quick.

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Warrior'sSuite

Oof my bad, you're right; i forgot there were 2 of them, PB and RING bulgarian. :?

I thought you were talking about the PB ones haha my bad.

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anhkun

i can do 25kg weighted XR dips 5 reps with full ROM but on Bulgarian XR dips i cant seem to get elbows and hands in line with the shoulders. Flexibilty issue? if so what stretches should i do. Or rather practice makes perfect?

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Tarun Suri
i can do 25kg weighted XR dips 5 reps with full ROM but on Bulgarian XR dips i cant seem to get elbows and hands in line with the shoulders. Flexibilty issue? if so what stretches should i do. Or rather practice makes perfect?

Lack of internal rotation is your issue. Search for that in the mobilityWods on Kelly Starret's site. Slizz's pec stretch can apply here too I think.

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Joshua Naterman

You're going to have to work on internal rotators like havoc said, and you are also going to need to just try to do the top few inches correctly at first and every few weeks add a little ROM until you are doing the whole ROM. They are a lot harder than they look when you're doing them right.

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Donar

I agree that lack of internal rotation is the issue here. But I'm not sure if the pec stretch will help.

You're going to have to work on internal rotators like havoc said, and you are also going to need to just try to do the top few inches correctly at first and every few weeks add a little ROM until you are doing the whole ROM. They are a lot harder than they look when you're doing them right.

If you want internal rotation range of motion, you have to work on your external rotators (infraspinatus, teres minor, posterior deltoid), not your internal rotators (pectorals major, subscapularis, latissimus dorsi, teres major, anterior deltoid). By working on I mean performing soft tissue work and possibly stretching the muscles.

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Joshua Naterman

That could definitely be an issue, Donar. Mostly people just don't have active control of the muscles and they are not doing exercises that require much shoulder rptation, so the internal rotators Subscap and Teres Major will be both weak and inactive in these movements.

To me that's the #1 issue with Bulgarian dips for most of us, but I agree that what you are saying may also be important for many of our members.

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Jeff Walker

I know this is old but what is a reverse wall slide?  I can't find any pics

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Douglas Wadle

Stand back to wall and shoulders elbows and hands are on wall. Now slide elbows up like you're doing Bulgarian dip and make sure elbows shoulders and hands all stay in contact with wall. Raise arms until elbows at shoulder height.

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