Eating enough? (Updated, please check)

[Bryce Warren]

I'm 20, 5'11, and weigh about 157 lbs. I'm going for more hypertrophy focusing on the 10 x 3 setup for my routine. I've been working pure strength for a few months and I'm feelin' the need to switch. Does this setup tend to build strength as well? Just curious about that. Some days I train twice, cardio in the morning before I eat, then either I go home and have something or have a protein bar before moving onto my strength training (Usually about 30-60 minutes in between sessions). Anyways, for my eating schedule it usually comes close to this :

Morning (9:30-10:00 a.m) (Pre-workout) :

Protein shake with oats mixed in

Post-workout (12:30 a.m-1:00 p.m) :

Protein shake + piece of fruit

about 30-45 minutes later (1:15-1:45 p.m) :

Chicken + veges (or) Chicken caesar

2-3 hours later (3-4 p.m) :

Beef (or) Pork (or) Salmon + veges (or) sweet potato

2-3 hours later (5-6 p.m) :

Eggs (or) whatever is left for protein that I haven't eaten + piece of fruit

3-4 hours later (8 p.m+) :

Protein shake + fruit (sometimes)

My fruits are usually bananas, whole apples that I usually blend into applesauce keeping the seeds in, blueberries, and the odd time oranges and mangos. The veges vary but I'm a huge fan of broccoli lol. Protein sources are tuna, salmon, beef, pork, eggs, whey protein, protein bars, and chicken. Tuna not so often though. I use a bit of dressing on my caesar salads of course, and veges as well. I'm sketchy about rice if I should add it or not, but of course that's why I'm asking on here, what to add or change.

On rest days I have eggs and fruit in the morning instead of the shake with oats, but the layout is basically the same. I'm trying to gain size, keep strength going, but keep burning the fat off, I have about 1.8% more I want to lose, not much. Open to all suggestions. Looking forward to what you guys have to say.

[EastWind]

I'm going for more hypertrophy focusing on the 10 x 3 setup for my routine. I've been working pure strength for a few months and I'm feelin' the need to switch. Does this setup tend to build strength as well?

Hello.

It's more about TUT. For strength + size, and I quote from slizzardman:

You're going to want to be in the 30-50s work set range

If your sets last 20-40 seconds then you will get strength results, which means you will be experiencing myofibrillar hypertrophy. In layman's terms, there are going to be more actin and myosin strands in the muscle and so you will be stronger. This adds minimal size.

If you're going for mixed strength and hypertrophy(kind of a misnomer, since strength development is really a different type of hypertrophy) then you're going to want to be in the 30-50s work set range. That means 6-12 reps, depending on your pace. at 2120, that's 5 seconds per rep. That means you'd want 6-10 reps. You'd start with something you could do 6 times at that pace and you'd stay there until you can do 4-5 sets of 10 reps.

So I think that if you're going for size, 10 sets x 3 reps might not be the best option:

40-60 seconds you will be primarily adding size. This is sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, and it's literally the muscle cell increasing its fluid volume. This primarily adds size.

At three reps you won't be in the 40-60s range. You might want to increase the number of reps to 6 and maybe add another exercise with 5 reps after the first, so you'd be in that range. (at 2020, 2120, 2220). That's at least 44 seconds. Or do an exercise with higher reps.

With regards to your protein intake, eggs especially and casein are better before going to sleep, as they are considered slow proteins, so it takes more time for the aminoacids to be absorbed into blood. I would recommend a whey shake immediately after the workout.

It's said that the body cannot use large quantities of proteins once, 25-30 grams would be enough at one time, at least for our weight (150-160 lbs), so don't go for very large scoops, they won't do miracles just because of the size. I wouldn't take anything else 2-3 hours afterwards, just let the first proteins do their job.

Important, if you're on low calories (low carbs, low fat) diet, the body will need more proteins, because it's going to consume/transform them into other necessary substances. However, don't forget that proteins and carbs compliments each other's absorbtion, so a quantity of carbs is needed for better proteins absorbtion.

Whey proteins are recommended immediately after workout. And a mix of protein sources food or mixed formula with carbohydrates later.

Also, rest is very important. Ideal would be: workout + proteins + rest.

I hope I'm not wrong with these, as I am not an expert.

[Joshua Naterman]

Protein utilization is really not impaired by large portion size, but you have to think about the TYPE of protein you're taking when considering portion size. Is it slow to digest or fast? How efficient isit, biologically? 30g of whey will build the same amount of muscle as 50-60g of beef, and it gets in your system very quickly on an empty gut where beef takes over 2 hours to hit the bloodstream in sufficient concentrations to be useful.

Because of the slow digestion of beef, having 100+g of protein in beef form in one serving is not an issue. You'll still use it, and this has been demonstrated in research studies.

Whey is different. It hits hard and fast, so you have to space out the servings so that you don't trigger a huge insulin response and cause all the extra protein to be stored as glycogen and fat. That's why I always recommend 2-4 single scoop servings spaced 30 minutes apart after the workout. It works.

Having said that, the TUT thing is interesting. If you have been going heavy for a while you may just want to do one heavy set per workout to keep your strength up and spend most of your time working in that 30-50s TUT range. However, if you haven't done much volume with your heavy stuff then you may get excellent results with 10 sets of 3, just make sure you're using a 6 rep max weight and using the same tempo that you perform those 6 reps with! So if you are lifting 202 on your 6rm that's the tempo you'd use on your 10 sets of 3.

[EastWind]

2-4 single scoop servings spaced 30 minutes after the workout

Are you are referring to taking 2 to 4 full scoops with 30 minutes in-between servings? At 25g / scoop, that would be about 100 grams of whey in the first three hours after the workout. From what I've read, the body needs 4 hours for complete absorption of 40 grams of whey (see this article and table with the absorption rate), wouldn't the extra quantity be lost?

[Bryce Warren]

My routine for the last few months has been mostly 4-7 reps with 4 sets for the most part. I tried the 10x3 setup today and it felt great. The last 3 weeks I just did 1 or 2 exercises each session with 6x3-4 and noticed some size coming on, so I figured I may as well test out the 10x3 and see how it goes for me. If not I can always try actually sticking in the 30-50s range for each set.

I think I'll try that 2-4 servings of whey protein after workout as well, didn't think it was the greatest idea to have that much in a short time. Since I usually have a protein shake mixed with oats before workout should I take this out if I'm having that many afterwards? If so what would I replace the pre-workout shake with?

[Joshua Naterman]

2-4 single scoop servings spaced 30 minutes after the workout

Are you are referring to taking 2 to 4 full scoops with 30 minutes in-between servings? At 25g / scoop, that would be about 100 grams of whey in the first three hours after the workout. From what I've read, the body needs 4 hours for complete absorption of 40 grams of whey (see this article and table with the absorption rate), wouldn't the extra quantity be lost?

I quote from the article you reference:

... I’d note that none of the above applies to nutrition around training, which is a topic that I’ll have to cover in a separate article. Training changes the dynamics of a many things including how protein is used by the body so the data discussed so far doesn’t really apply to that specific situation. ...

You can not use basic digestive data to apply to a specific scenario because how the body responds is completely different.

According to all of the absorption graphs I have seen, amino acid concentrations in the blood basically peak after around 30 minutes of blood entry and start to drop off after 45-60 minutes.

I freely admit that 3-4 scoops may be more than what is needed in many situations, but any extra protein will be converted to glycogen since the liver AND the muscles are fairly well depleted in most workout scenarios. There may be SOME fat gain, but far less than occurs with higher carbohydrate concentrations (like the "vaunted" 4:1 ratio).

For most people, if all you have is pre-workout protein and post-workout protein you should be 100% covered. Period. This of course has a caveat, which is how much damage are you doing and how much growth is being stimulated? The more of either or both that is happening, the more protein you're going to need.

There are also a number of people with casein allergies and people who can not have casein due to other medical concerns. There are no such concerns with whey, which makes for an easier recommendation and even MORE so considering that there is no advantage to either one over the other in a post-workout environment.

I have one more quote from that site, which is from the milk after workout article. You should notice that the recommendations are very, very similar to what I recommend in my nutrition thread. Notice the dextrose powder + protein powder combination? There is also the option of adding milk, which I sometimes do when I am at home and have 1% available.

For large athletes who need a large amount of carbohydrates or protein following training, milk may not be an ideal way of getting it. A typical 8-oz serving of milk contains roughly 12 grams of carbohydrates and 8 grams of protein. A large resistance training athlete might need 4-5X that many nutrients following training and drinking that much milk may not be feasible.

A compromise solution might be to use milk as a base and add extra nutrients (such as maltodextrin or dextrose powder for carbs and protein powder for protein) to achieve a higher nutrient density than milk itself can provide.

It is very true that a long protein trickle does far, far more for mass gain than a quick pulse of protein. You do not have to use casein, or any other protein in particular, for that to happen. You know what you need? Protein powder, in a low concentration, mixed into your drinking water.

I learned about this from a 1999 study that was used by Designer Protein for their 8 hour whey marketing. Basically, the subjects were given something like 5g of whey per hour all day long. They had a rate of protein synthesis that was something stupid like 1000% above baseline. It was HUGE. So, the simple way to accomplish this for yourself is to say Hmm..., if I put 15g of whey into a quart of water or 2 scoops into a GALLON of water, and just sip that all day, I get the same effect.

I basically did this when I was in the Navy, and the results were awesome. I got tested for steroids 3 times in 2 weeks. Seriously. Obviously I wasn't on steroids, but I was working out pretty smart AND I had good nutrition AND I had the small doses of whey, like 2g, every 30 minutes. Yes, I set a timer. If I had thought about it, and if I had access to a gallon jug, I would have just done what I have suggested above. One scoop per half gallon is probably better, since the water WILL somewhat digest the protein via hydrolysis over long periods of time.

[EastWind]

That's awesome! I think I'll have a big scoop (50g) after the workout and another 50g for sipping all day, a few grams every hour.

I didn't use dextrose, but I will give it a try as my post workout carbs intake, mixed with proteins. It only costs 10$ / kg, so it's not a financial effort.

Thank you for your advices.

UPDATE: Found some interesting advices on Poliquin's website, he says that carb/protein/creatine is the best option for strength & hypertrophy gains, according to some studies. The results were better compared to carb/protein or protein/creatine mixed intakes.

Here's the link: Top five things you must know about post workout nutrition

[Joshua Naterman]

I haven't checked the link, but that would be true. Creatine supplementation prevents your body from having to use a portion of the protein you take to make creatine itself, which allows you a larger number of complete protein chains to be used for other purposes like actual muscle building.

Furthermore, adding any kind of non-protein energy to the protein mix seems to enhance protein synthesis, which again makes sense since your body can use something like 38% of dietery protein for gluconeogenesis. That's a pretty big hit on protein available for protein synthesis, and adding carbs completely eliminates that loss.

Edit: THis supports my personal experience as well as what I have recommended in my nutrition thread. It is good to see that I am on the right path.

A ratio of 2:1 to 1:1 of carb to protein may be indicated for resistance trained/anaerobic athletes to get the greatest increases in strength and hypertrophy. Few studies compare the benefits of different carb to protein ratios without including other variables such as the addition of creatine to the supplement, but there is data to support the use of ratios between 2:1 and 1:1. One study using a 1:1 ratio was more effective at promoting muscle hypertrophy among both fast and slow twitch fibers than supplementing with protein or carbs alone.

The 3 or 4:1 ratios are for serious aerobic work only, when you have SIGNIFICANT glycogen depletion. Even then, if you're sipping a glucose mixture there will be a decreased need for PWO carbs which in turn makes for an easier time avoiding fat gain.

[Nicholas Sortino]

Hey slizz, this made me kinda curious about something. Since 2-3g every 30min or so is only about 12 calories it wouldn't even register as a blip in terms of insulin reaction. Since on my non-strength days I do IF now, do you think this would "go against" it, even though the amounts at any one time are so small as to be nearly insignificant?

If so, I think I am going to start doing it regardless on just my strength training days, otherwise I might give this a try full time for a little while. Ideally I want to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time, but right now strength gains are more important to me overall.

[Joshua Naterman]

I don't know the answer to that for sure, but I would think the same as you.

[Bryce Warren]

That's a lot of water haha. Did the gallon idea today, sure keeps you entertained throughout the day lol. How long would you suggest doing this for?

[Joshua Naterman]

See how you feel and how your body reacts, and decide if it's something you want to do long term or if you just want this for A) a growth period to maximize your gains or B) a fat loss period to minimize and essentially completely prevent muscle loss.

You can do the same thing with milk protein concentrate or casein protein, which is a much slower protein. Just if anyone wanted to try that. I don't know what the difference would be.

Personally, I have 20g of dextrose per half gallon and 1 scoop of protein (27g). Not very much, but enough to make sure that none of the protein (hopefully) is being used to generate glycogen. At the very least the conversion will be far less.

[Bryce Warren]

I just didn't think that much water would be good for the body, although I've really never read about such things so I wouldn't know.

[Nicholas Sortino]

I just didn't think that much water would be good for the body, although I've really never read about such things so I wouldn't know.

A gallon a day? I used to drink 2 a day in HS during wrestling... A gallon isn't even close to enough to hurt you. 5 maybe

[Bryce Warren]

Really? That's insane, even 1 feels like a lot, I don't know how people have managed to drink that much to damage or kill their bodies. Well that clears up my only thought, I'll be doing this long-term then. Looking forward to seeing how well it works.

I suppose I'll be sticking around 60g whey protein mixed with 40g dextrose per gallon. I don't know the details on this so should this be changing my food choices at all? Or should I just stick to the same idea as what I've got above?

[Joshua Naterman]

The low concentration protein is just a supplement, do not alter your diet to accomodate this. It is simply to make sure your body is healing at as close to its metabolic maximum potential as possible.

[EastWind]

As far as I know, there's a significant amount of water in the human body (40-80% of the body weight). In infants, the percent is bigger and decreases with age, according to some article I read. I don't see how water can harm somebody, except if that person is in danger of drowning. I know that doctors recommend between 2-4 liters / day for average people (not talking about athletes or other cases who require more or less due to some medical temporary conditions), so I think that drinking 2-4 or maybe more liters a day would not be a problem. I personally cannot drink more than 2 liters a day, no matter I do the workouts or not. It's true that some quantity is being added from food.

But, related to the water, I've got another question and I think it's important.

I read that after the meal, a person should refrain himself from drinking water for 30 minutes to one hour, to help digestion, because water dilutes the acids from the stomach so digestion is slower -> the body is spending more time with this -> more energy is lost. But as I was browsing through the forum yesterday, I found an older post about nutrition and slizz said that some foods require water in order to be processed faster, so I would like to know what's best for stomach and eventually what are the foods which require special attention (water). I think it's very important to know that. I understand that whey proteins need water , but how about the regular food we serve?

[Joshua Naterman]

The issue isn't JUST water, it is electrolyte (various salts) concentration to water ratio. It is technically possible to "drown" with too low OR be parched with too high of a concentration.

At my size and activity level it is recommended that I be taking down about a gallon a day not including whatever I expend during workouts. I have found this to be a pretty accurate assessment. I feel better and am stronger when I really follow this closely.

Don't worry about the water diluting your stomach acid, it takes a LOT of water to dilute acid. A LOT. Besides, your body will produce more to compensate if there was a slight rise in pH. You need water with food, so drink while you eat! Please don't ask for amounts, go doll a d20 and drink that many ounces lol! Seriously though, just drink what it feels like you need.

8-32 oz will be what I drink with any given meal if that helps. Notice that's a rather large range. It just depends on how I feel!

[EastWind]

Great! I've been refraining from having water after meals for the last months, but now I'm going to change that for better.

[Bryce Warren]

Right on, all great stuff guys thanks a lot. I never really saw anything direct about my current nutrition plan so I may as well ask once more to make sure everything is on key for me now, is everything I have down there good for a days worth of food? I usually don't get the beef much anymore I've been sticking to pork but other than that its pretty much the same. Along with the gallon idea.

[MH87]

Well do you feel nurished and feel like you're getting enough food? You want to put on weight? If thats the case and you want to minimize fat gains you should really write down total kcal and macros for everything.. Because your dinner which is pork and sweet potatoes, it does matter if you're eating 150 grams of meat or 500 grams. And how many oats do you eat. How many carbs are you getting pr day. And how much of your daily protein actually comes from the shakes.

[Bryce Warren]

Alright I'll get it all down today and post it at the end of the day.

[Bryce Warren]

I'm trying not to include anymore whey protein during the day because of the 60g in the gallon, if I should still be having one after workout then let me know. Anyways that's the general idea of my portions, usually doesn't change other than the eggs I usually have 3. I would normally have a pwo shake as well but I'm not sure if I should anymore so let me know what I need to fix, thanks.

1st Meal:

4 eggs in olive oil

banana

60g whey in gallon of water (Started drinking at first meal, lasts all day of course)

(Strength Training)

2nd Meal:

protein bar

(45-60 minutes apart)

3rd Meal:

2 cups veges

1/2 large sweet potato

170g chicken tenderloins in 1-1 1/2 tbsp jamaican hot sauce

4th Meal:

can of salmon

2 hand fulls mixed greens

2 tbsp thousand island dressing

1 1/2 cup blueberries

5th meal

2 hand fulls mixed greens

2 tbsp thousand island dressing

4 pieces steamed broccoli

6 steamed carrots

6th Meal: (late meal, after 11)

small caesar salad

few carrots

EDIT:

Today I did things differently, I read slizzards sticky after entirely forgetting about it the last while. Today my nutrition is as follows (few things might be off because it's a lot to remember and I just thought about writing it up)

Pre-workout:

1/2 cup oats blended with a banana

3 eggs

Gallon water, 60g whey protein, 40g raw honey (started drinking)

PWO:

30 Mins: 20g whey protein, 1/2 banana, hand full of grapes

1 Hour: 112g chicken tenderloins (25g protein), 3/4 cup partially steamed veges (tbsp caesar dressing for dip)

1.5 Hours: 112g chicken tenderloins mixed with 3/4-1 cup white rice (bit of sweet chili sauce over it), veges (same amount)

2 Hours: 1/2 of a salad containing: 1 can salmon mixed with mixed greens and 2 tsp caesar dressing , 3/4 cup blueberries

2.5 Hours: other 1/2 of the remaining salad, 3/4 cup blueberries

This is what it's looked like today. I really don't know anything about protein bars if I should be having them, if so then when? If I could get some input on that as well it'd be great. Looking forward to the feedback.