Not eating enough?

[Newguy]

I think what you are trying to say is "Exercise is King, Diet is Queen" And yes I agree, you will definitely get results if you eat stuff that aren't the best for you, and still workout a ton. and Phelps is a good example of eating a ton of food that is not the best for you. And still getting spectacular results. But I would not go so far as to say that he just eats whatever he feels like, I would be willing to bet that his diet is intentionally calculated to give him as much calories as possible, so that he can train harder, and more often. However even though his diet is would not be considered "Healthy" from what most people would think of it. Especially Paleo dieters, (Who don't eat any grains) It's not "That" Bad...Okay maybe it is, but at least he is not going to Mcdonalds and getting a couple big macs...

[Christopher Heard]

Okay maybe it is, but at least he is not going to Mcdonalds and getting a couple big macs...

Yeah, leave that to Usain Bolt. Before going out to break the world record, he was eating chicken nuggets... And beat the record with his shoelaces undone!

[interview link]

[Stewart Whaley]

I'm sure someone will piss and moan about milk/dairy, but Rippetoe's GOAD (gallon of milk a day) is an inexpensive, easy way to add calories, protein and growth hormone to the mix.

You could try that for a couple of weeks and see what happens.

[Newguy]

Just make sure to have milk that is all natural, organic, grass fed cows, NON skim whole milk, Basically straight from the cow. And pretty much not from the store. I don't know how it is where you live, but about the only way to get real milk (Milk that is good for you) is to find someone who owns a cow and buy it direct from them.

[Philip Chubb]

Or going to a nice vet I hear...but don't quote me on that one.

[William Bateson]

Without specifying a goal this question is too open-ended. Are you eating enough to not die? Sure. Are you eating enough to reach your goals? Depends on the goals. What are you try to achieve with this current training and diet scheme, when you made up this schedule what did you envision the outcome would be?

[Khassera]

I have a problem:

I've been doing IF (16/8, leangains style) for about 2 years now. I do everything "by the book," meaning I cycle macros (low cal, low carb, high protein on rest days / high cal, high carb, high protein on workout days) and train fasted (with BCAA, so not totally empty).

I enjoy the Paleo diet with some hacks, like the inclusion of dairy on workout days in the form of low fat Quark. I also go VERY, VERY high carb during workout days, eating at least 1kg of potatoes and sweet potatoes and 800g of meat. I.e. today's PWO is pretty normal for me:

- 800g of beef in the form of a very, very dry oven-baked "pizza" topped with 500g of sweet potato mash (topped with a tin of tuna and a tin of tomato puree)

- About 1.4kg of potato wedges, oven fried, no oils etc.

- 30g of Whey isolate and a tsp of glycine.

I added up the calories, and that should contain about 2500kcal give or take. The only fats I took in on this meal was the "trace amounts" from the beef (the total weight of the beef once dry was something like 400g, I poured away a ton of fat even though the fat content of the meat was less than 10%) and four normal-sized brazil nuts. (I've been reading Tim Ferris, and I guess I wanna try new stuff to see what works.)

OKAY LONG STORY SHORT: I eat paleo, I do fasts, I am looking to add some lean muscle mass just like everybody who ever wants to bulk up, and I have a question.

Why do people on the paleo plan or vegetarian (Mike Mahler) diet recommend consuming coconut milk for extra calories? Why coconut milk? Why not mixed nuts? Is it because nuts are harder to measure? Or is it because coconut milk's fat "doesn't accumulate" or something? I mean I know that's [mostly] bullcrap, but wouldn't nuts be far easier to mix into food to have more "chewable" calories instead of drinking them = more satiety?

Sorry about the monster post, but I'd love it to bits if someone cared to give some insight.

[Razz]

To above:

Firstly potatoes are not paleo. If they're peeled then don't worry too much about it, but they do have quite high a glycemic index.

Second: Nuts usually contain a high amount of omega 6 fatty acids which will skew the whole 1:1 ratio in the paleo theory. Also some nuts contain some anti nutrients which is why you don't wanna go overboard. Coconut is nutritious with no anti nutrients found so far, and contains some saturated fat easily available for energy. That's the short story. One more thing is that if your goal is to gain weight on an IF schedule, would you really want more satiating calories? I mean it's damn hard to get enough in that 8 hour window already. Just some food for thought and hopefully some answers to your questions.

[William Bateson]

Khassera,

You didn't mention what kind of results you have had with this protocol. Has it caused you to lose fat/muscle, or have you been able to gain a little fat/muscle and simply want to accelerate those results? Furthermore, how important is IF to you in relation to gaining muscle? As Razz stated, a limited feeding window limits your ability to take in calories. If muscle gain is very important to you I would not limit your feeding window, instead try to eat as much clean food as possible throughout the day. Depending on your dedication to health while gaining muscle, you can certainly gorge on nuts while trying to put on weight. I wouldn't recommend it from a health standpoint, but it's easier than preparing meat. On off days you could continue with your IF, but I would not aim to go low calorie on those days. Muscle gain requires adequate fuel at all times, not just on the days you work out.

Some other thoughts that wouldn't have fit into a cohesive paragraph...

If your going to include dairy, make sure it's full fat; heavy cream is excellent when blended with berries and coconut milk.

By dry meat I assume you mean lean, but why are you using it? Fatty meat isn't going to kill you, and there are lots of beneficial fats in them. It is a mistake to think that building muscle ONLY requires lots of protein.

[Alex Dienaar]

Cons for nuts :

-Most forms of nuts are rich in Poly-unsaturated fats of which the Omega-6/Omega-3 balance is very much on the Omega-6 side (unless we're talking about Cashews/Macademias). Meaning they are pro-inflammatory

-Nuts are very hard on the digestive system and it's very easy to develop allergies to them (the anti-nutritients Razz mentioned)

-Nuts with long shelf life tend to go rancid (beware of what kind of nuts you eat).

-When you eat alot you tend to get alot of trace carbohydrates from them as well

-Alot of calories (yes, calories are still relevant in huge numbers)

Pros for coconut milk :

-No PUFA's

-Alot of healthy forms of saturated fat; including medium chain triglycerides, which are instantly used as energy as opposed to being stored.

-About 2 grams of carbohydrates per 100ml ?

-Lauric Acid is one of those medium chain fatty acids, which has anti bacterial and anti-fungal properties and boosts your immune system.

-It contains alot of electrolytes; meaning it's a very hydrating drink

and alot more, do some research and educate yourself on coconut oil/milk and MCTs.

[Cole Dano]

Alex coming on strong!

[Khassera]

Firstly potatoes are not paleo.

I'd love to have some data on this.

Second: Nuts usually contain a high amount of omega 6 fatty acids which will skew the whole 1:1 ratio in the paleo theory.

This is what I was looking for. Thank you for reminding me. I recall reading on this subject long time ago, but I sorta got lost in the mix and forgot the whole thing, not having eaten nuts/nutlike foods for a couple of years and all.

One more thing is that if your goal is to gain weight on an IF schedule, would you really want more satiating calories? I mean it's damn hard to get enough in that 8 hour window already. Just some food for thought and hopefully some answers to your questions.

I IF because of the workouts, I can't work out with anything in my stomach/gut/whatever. It's gotten to be psychological, and I generally feel oodles better running totally empty (or bcaa supped) for my workouts. I was just wondering why the coconut, because of the high fat content. And I generally dislike the idea of taking in fat on a workout day, so I was kinda looking at options to stuff my face with to exceed the calorie count. I'll drop the nuts and opt for the coconut, but I'm going to keep my eyes open for better suggestions. Thank you for the answers, the omega ratio thing helped tons.

-Alot of calories (yes, calories are still relevant in huge numbers)

-Alot of healthy forms of saturated fat; including medium chain triglycerides, which are instantly used as energy as opposed to being stored.

Here we go. This is what I was looking for: If you're going over your calorie count it doesn't matter what kind of fat you eat: You eat more calories, you gain more weight. The goal is to keep the fat gain as low as possible, so wouldn't carbs be the logical choice, them being used more for heating the body? I'm just going out on a wing, but from what I've gathered from Lyle McDonald and Martin Berkhan, it seems that "fat burning fat" is a myth: If you consume a caloric excess, you will gain fat. I'd imagine eating fat when the body is at its most recipient state for nutrition is a bad thing to do? That's why I've left my rest days to make coconut/nut treats.

My point is to take in more calories. I was just wondering if I should do it with protein (meat), fat (coconut/nuts/oils) or carbs (starchy tubers) but the problem was that I'm already eating a ton of potatoes and meat.

BIll: I've only "bulked" for a month or so, but fat gain has been very minimal. I have no idea about weight, I guess I should weigh myself. I'm sure I haven't gained much weight.

[Uzeeh]

Nuts usually contain a high amount of omega 6 fatty acids which will skew the whole 1:1 ratio in the paleo theory. Also some nuts contain some anti nutrients which is why you don't wanna go overboard.

There's no proof that high amounts of PUFA from nuts are bad for your health, though, quite the opposite, as seen in these studies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19883717

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19555768

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... bmed%20%20

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20031380

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19880586

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18778529

On top of that, there isn't any proof that high omega-6 is even unhealthy when you get enough omega-3. Many studies, like the Harvard one, show that getting more PUFA is better - up to a certain extent, at least. For example, look at these studies: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15668366 and http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 11614/full Just saying that omega-6 is like a poison isn't true in any way. One should eat as many different natural fats as possible.

[Matthew Mossop]

I'd love any more info on this whole nut debate. I'm currently eating a lot of nuts... probably a cup at least per day of trail mix (peanuts, sunflower seeds, raisins... and a couple other types of nuts). I was doing this for the protein and the good fats mostly (and it tastes great), but now I'm reading all this stuff about too much omega 6's from nuts.

I do however currently take about 1800 mg's of fish oil (omega 3) per day, so maybe that would balance things out? I'm actually planning on increasing my omega 3 intake quite a bit (for mental health reasons) with a bunch more fish oil and flax oil.

Anyway, anyone know whether I may be going overboard with my omega 6's over omega 3's with those numbers?

Oh ya... I should probably mention that I have no issues at all with fat gain (or any other problems I've read about relating to too much omega 6's) with all the nuts I'm eating.

[Razz]

The omega-6 in most nuts is ridiculously high, it becomes almost impossible to have a decent n3-6 ratio when eating a lot of nuts. Nuts are generally quite overrated I believe.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

But they're sooo gooood... :cry:

[Uzeeh]

And very healthy according to studies. The omega3/6 ratio doesn't seem to matter that much in it.

[Matthew Mossop]

Nuts usually contain a high amount of omega 6 fatty acids which will skew the whole 1:1 ratio in the paleo theory. Also some nuts contain some anti nutrients which is why you don't wanna go overboard.

Interesting... these studies use mostly walnuts, which has the highest percentage of omega 6 of any nut (like 50%). So that's a good sign. I've also read that the omega 6 from nuts isn't as big a deal as the omega 6 from bread or other processed foods.

Guess I'll keep on with all the trail mix for now.

[Philip Chubb]

I think Poliquin actually said walnuts are pretty high in omega threes as well though. I would like to see the results done on something like almonds. Though I don't think we necessarily need science to confirm.

[Nicholas Sortino]

Nuts usually contain a high amount of omega 6 fatty acids which will skew the whole 1:1 ratio in the paleo theory. Also some nuts contain some anti nutrients which is why you don't wanna go overboard.

Interesting... these studies use mostly walnuts, which has the highest percentage of omega 6 of any nut (like 50%). So that's a good sign. I've also read that the omega 6 from nuts isn't as big a deal as the omega 6 from bread or other processed foods.

Guess I'll keep on with all the trail mix for now.

Walnuts actually have the most Omega-3's of any nut. They also have the most PUFAs of any nut period. They are more than half PUFA which is pretty ridiculous.

Omega-6's are a bigger deal than a lot of people give them credit for. PUFAs in general should be limited to 4% of your total intake, and Omega-6 to 2-3% of total calories.

[Uzeeh]

Why should it be so? When studies clearly show otherwise, speaking things like that is just plain religious.

[Matthew Mossop]

What do the studies that you've read show Uzeeh?

[Larry Roseman]

Balance

You should try to get between 5 and 10 percent of your calories each day from omega-6 fatty acids, the American Heart Association recommends. This typically means consuming between 12 and 22 g of these fats each day from nuts, vegetable oils and other sources. [This assumes < 30% calories from fat in general]. It is also important to consume enough omega-3 fatty acids to help balance out the omega-6 effects; a good ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 is between 2:1 and 4:1, the University of Maryland Medical Center reports.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/39826 ... z1XfD74TKt

http://fr.ysonut.net/profesional/pdf/Ysodoc/D060304.pdf

Average western diets are around 15:1, so 2-4:1 is quite an improvement.