New to gymnastics

[joe_fitz]

Hello everyone i'm new here, I look forward to discussions and perhaps some friendly banter.. i'm a big fan of the site.

I'm just starting out and i'm trying to form a few routines to cycle over. My goals are predominantly to increase hamstring flexbility, general flexbility and strength and power. I'm reasonably fit, 45KG Bench Press, BW (63 kg) deadlift, 50 KG squat (can also perform 1-legged squats).

I have a couple of questions: do you use core specialised workouts seperate from full body strengthening workouts?

will movements such as L-sits and hanging leg raises aid in gaining flexbility? do you integrate flexbility into your workouts or do you leave it till the end of a typical session?

all input is welcome, thank you for your time. Looking forward to the book.

Thanks again

[Ari]

OK, firstly, why these goals? Why do you want to increase hamstring flexibilty, general flexibility, strength and power? What do you actually mean by 'power'?

Now to your questions.

Do you use core specialised workouts seperate from full body strengthening workouts?

I don't. I don't even do hanging leg-raises. Currently, my core training consists in the planche and front lever progressions and l-sit work. Nothing more. When I feel like lifting weights again/get into olympic-lifting or sprinting, it will also include all the whole-body lifts.

What do you mean by 'core' training and what is your reasoning for doing it?

Will movements such as L-sits and hanging leg raises aid in gaining flexbility?

Yes.

Do you integrate flexbility into your workouts or do you leave it till the end of a typical session?

My flexibility training consists in l-sits and when in a weightlifting phase, squat and deadlift variations, good mornings and the olympic lifts.

[joe_fitz]

thank you very much for taking the time to reply.

To answer your questions:

I would like to increase hamstring flexbility because mine is appauling, I practise martial arts and often get a "crack" sound followed by a day of soreness in my lower back if I kick too high. Although my hamstrings are the focus of increasing flexibility I could do with increasing full body flexbility. I was just curious how a typical gymnast would do this.

I would also like to increase overall strength and power. I was going to acheive this through the use of planche and tuck lever progressions, and plymetrics.

By core training I meant training the abs, erector spinae, obliques, etc. Though my focus is on the rotational component used in striking.

Thanks again

[cathal]

hello joe

hanging leg raises are great for ab and hip flexor strength and contain an active flexibility element for your hamstrings. coachs progression for this move is in the articles section of the site. gymnasts like to integrate active flexibility training into their workouts with the exercises they do.

total body static stretching can be done whenever you like. i like to throw it in after a workout.

as for core training yes i focus on this separately. some exercises i find effective are HLR,s L-sits, L-sit lifts, body levers, cranks, glute ham raises(for lower back). coach has performance essays and videos for all these exercises on the site

if you have any more questions just ask

[Ari]

thank you very much for taking the time to reply.

Not a problem. I don't know why, but this has become a small passion of mine, so I really don't mind taking the time to help people out. Hell, I enjoy it.

Your reason for improving hamstring flexibility seems pretty valid. Most people seem to think for some reason that bending down and touching your toes with straight legs is an intrinsic part of good health. I just wanted to make sure that you weren't one of those people.

To improve your hamstring flexibility, do Romanian deadlifts, good mornings, l-sits and hanging leg-raises. It might also help to try to maintain a neutral lumbar spine when kicking.

I don't know how gymnasts go about improving flexibility, because I don't care, but there is a whole subforum about that and I am sure there is plenty of information there. Also realise though that gymnastics itself improves flexibility, so to some extent, especially with gymnasts who have been training since a very young age, improvements in their flexibility might be in spite of their specific flexibility training, not because of it. This thread might also interest you: http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2577&highlight=#2577

The way in which you intend to go about improving strength and 'power' seems to be good, though I think you, like most fitness enthusiasts, are confused about what plyometrics are. I think you are just referring to explosive training, which is excellent for your current goals.

True plyometrics are movements like depth jumps or depth push-ups, where you seek to explode as soon as you can after having fallen to the ground. These can only be used effectively for a short period every year, I doubt you have any idea how to program with them properly and they are best kept for when an athlete has at least a 2 x bodyweight deadlift, so I think you should leave them alone for now. Also, they are mainly used to improve strength, not explosivity, which is just somewhat a by-product of strength. I don't know af any data about their application to mprove explosivity. So yeah, I wouldn't bother right now.

Your definition of the core is fine (it's great you included the erector spinae). To train it, do gymnastics strength elements, deadlift variations, squat variations, pull variations and variations of the olympic lifts.

I don't want to open the 'functional' core training can of worms, because it is a can of worms. However, when you improve your upper-body horizontal pushing strength to improve the strength of your punches, do you start punching with weights or do you do a certain upper-body horizontal pushing motion (benching, planche work, push-ups...)? I would apply the same logic to 'core training'. Perform the compound movements previously listed to strengthen the core, then learn to apply that strength (be it in a rotational manner or whatever) through practise of your sport.

Some people view the core as a certain bodypart that needs certain exercises. I take the view that it is trained indirectly through most exercises and that specific 'core training' isn't necessary. The rest of the body cannot be trained effectively without inadvertently training the core effectively.

This thread might also interest you:

http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=807

Edit:

total body static stretching can be done whenever you like. i like to throw it in after a workout.

Gah, no! Static stretching pre-workout weakens you and makes you perform worse. Don't do it! Some coaches don't even prescribe static stretching or even any stretching at all. If you are going to go down the stretching path, do dynamic mobility drills pre-workout and static stretching post-workout. Make sure you have a good reason for doing it though.

[cathal]

Gah, no! Static stretching pre-workout weakens you and makes you perform worse. Don't do it! Some coaches don't even prescribe static stretching or even any stretching at all. If you are going to go down the stretching path, do dynamic mobility drills pre-workout and static stretching post-workout. Make sure you have a good reason for doing it though.

i said i like to do it post workout, but to be honest i dont see any real dangers in stretching your muscles before a workout.

a coach that does not promote stretching among his students is not a good coach in my opinion. flexibility is a major component of fitness

[Guest jumpupandfly]

Gah, no! Static stretching pre-workout weakens you and makes you perform worse. Don't do it! Some coaches don't even prescribe static stretching or even any stretching at all. If you are going to go down the stretching path, do dynamic mobility drills pre-workout and static stretching post-workout. Make sure you have a good reason for doing it though.

would you care to explain this? I've heard that dynamic stretching is better as a warm up, but how would static stretching weaken you??

[Ari]

i said i like to do it post workout

Good, but I was taking issue with this:

total body static stretching can be done whenever you like.

Anyway,

to be honest i dont see any real dangers in stretching your muscles before a workout.

Science does though (well, 'danger' could be defined differently, but pre-workout static stretching can also increase the likelihood of injuries. I'm too lazy to find even more citations though):

An Acute Bout of Static Stretching: Effects on Force and Jumping Performance.

Results: After SS (STATIC STRETCHING), there were significant overall 9.5% and 5.4% decrements in the torque or force of the quadriceps for MVC and ITT, respectively. Force remained significantly decreased for 120 min (10.4%), paralleling significant percentage increases (6%) in sit and reach ROM (120 min). After SS, there were no significant changes in jump performance or PF measures.

Effect of Acute Static Stretching on Force, Balance, Reaction Time, and Movement Time.

Conclusion: In conclusion, it appears that an acute bout of stretching impaired the warm-up effect achieved under control conditions with balance and reaction/movement time.

Acute Effects of Static and Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation Stretching on Muscle Strength and Power Output

Conclusions: Both static and proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation stretching caused similar deficits in strength, power output, and muscle activation at both slow (60°·s�??1) and fast (300°·s�??1) velocities. The effect sizes, however, corresponding to these stretching-induced changes were small, which suggests the need for practitioners to consider a risk-to-benefit ratio when incorporating static or proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation stretching.

There are way, way more such studies.

flexibility is a major component of fitness

OK. Who says? How are you defining flexibility and why are you defining it this way? And fitness? What exactly is it, apart from the ability to perform a task? Why this definition?

I think you are confusing 'fitness' with 'health'. Flexibility and fitness have nothing to do with health. If you want to be healthy, eat well (but don't eat too much) and go on long walks on the beach. And don't do anything dangerous, like strength training, stretching or basically having a life.

I think you are also assuming that flexibility cannot be developed without specific stretching. Ever done a good morning, Romanian deadlift, full overhead squat (hell, even a low bar back squat), any of the olympic lifts with good form?

Edit: jumpupandfly, I don't actually know how the mechanism that causes pre-workout static-stretching to lead to poor strength performance works. It's just that the research suggests pretty strongly that it does.

[cathal]

OK. Who says? How are you defining flexibility and why are you defining it this way? And fitness? What exactly is it, apart from the ability to perform a task? Why this definition?

I think you are confusing 'fitness' with 'health'. Flexibility and fitness have nothing to do with health. If you want to be healthy, eat well (but don't eat too much) and go on long walks on the beach. And don't do anything dangerous, like strength training, stretching or basically having a life.

I think you are also assuming that flexibility cannot be developed without specific stretching. Ever done a good morning, Romanian deadlift, full overhead squat (hell, even a low bar back squat), any of the olympic lifts with good form?

Edit: jumpupandfly, I don't actually know how the mechanism that causes pre-workout static-stretching to lead to poor strength performance works. It's just that the research suggests pretty strongly that it does.

when you practice gymnastics flexibility is paramount to performance. there are two types of flexibility-active and passive. lets use the hamstrings as an example. active flexibility in your hamstrings is developed by performing exercises that require your muscles to stretch over the course of the movement eg HLR's, V-sits.

passive(static) flexibility is developed by using gravity or some other force to stretch your muscle eg seated or standing pikes.

active flexibility is an important component of gymnastics. but remember your active flexibility will never be as good as your static flexibility. i would say that it is important to first develop static flexibility and use this base to develop active flexibility.

im sure coach does lots of static work with his students

[Nic Scheelings]

I totally agree Cathal,

Flexibility training must be incorporated for a proper fitness regimen. Yes some excercises help with flexibility but at my gym 90% of the people who deadlift or try to olympic lift cannot do so with any sembelance of corrrect form due to inflexibility. This is no exaggeration, these excercises do reguire some half decent base flexibility. Romanian Deadlifts are a great excercise but once again i think u need a fair bit of training experience and again base flexibility to perform them correctly.

I would also argue men are often exceptionally tight in the hips especially if they strength train or play a sport like football and it simply needs to be relieved with stretching. I don't believe you can have a well rounded training regimen without flexibility training.

[Tim]

Static stretching creates microtears within the muscles the same as weight lifting does, which puts your muscles in a worked out stage already. Flexibility is far less important than elasticity in muscles. Flexibility can be generated with static stretching which is actually a deformation of the stretched muscle to a longer state through a repeated tear and repair cycle. Dynamic stretching/ rom work prior to a workout as warm up are more effective for better athletic performance.

[Ari]

Flexibility training must be incorporated for a proper fitness regimen.

A proper fitness regimen? What is that? I would say it is one that makes an athlete's body as physically prepared as possible to perform the tasks required by his or her sport. This may or may not involve flexibility training. Again, fitness is not flexibility is not health.

Again, as I will demonstrate, flexibility training does not need consist in specific stretching.

Yes some excercises help with flexibility but at my gym 90% of the people who deadlift or try to olympic lift cannot do so with any sembelance of corrrect form due to inflexibility. This is no exaggeration, these excercises do reguire some half decent base flexibility. Romanian Deadlifts are a great excercise but once again i think u need a fair bit of training experience and again base flexibility to perform them correctly.

What you are talking about has nothing to do with flexibility and everything to do with muscle imbalances, joint stability/mobility imbalances and poor/no coaching.

Check out this video of Dan John coaching:

http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-6529481301858251744&q=dan+john&ei=hGiKSPKjEYSGqwPZtt2iCA

He has people with apparently poor flexibility full squatting with natural form in ten minutes. Flexibility is not improved that quickly.

Also, if I were to coach someone who needed to correct mobility/stability issues in order first to perform deadlifts, then squats, then the olympic lifts, I would simply progress them from deadlifts from blocks, then deadlifts from the floor, then deadlifts with a snatch-grip, then snatch-grip deadlifts from a podium, then low-bar back squats, then high bar back squats, then front squats, then overhead squats. By this time, I think the athlete would be ready to start learning the olympic lift progressions. Nowhere need specific stretching enter the equation.

I would also argue men are often exceptionally tight in the hips especially if they strength train or play a sport like football and it simply needs to be relieved with stretching.

Well, even if I agree with the position that men need more mobile hips, it is yet to be demonstrated to me why this must be achieved through stretching.

[cathal]

alri, you are looking at stretching from a weightlifting point of view. for the sport of gymnastics stretching and flexibility is an important part of performance. any gymnast or gymnastic coach will comfirm this

[Ari]

Whether or not something is necessary for excellence in gymnastics has no bearing on whether or not it is a worthwhile thing to be doing. Obviously, if your priority is excellence in gymnastics it is, but then you must argue that excellence in gymnastics is a worthwhile goal.

Anyway, I am under the impression that this forum is chiefly intended for lay people to learn how they can use gymnastics techniques to improve their fitness, however you happen to define fitness. I have attempted to demonstrate that specific stretching probably isn't that relevant of a technique to most.

Also, whatever a gymnast or gymnastics coach happens to believe does not actually have an influence on what is true. Your opinion about something does not change the reality of that something.

[Edward Smith]

I think this post needs to get back on topic. Yes, Ari, mobility and mobility drills are a must in a routine. I suggest performing mobility drills before and after a workout, some dynamic stretches specific to what your doing and maybe some active stretches pre-workout. Stretching is essential for more or less every sporting pursuit, and fitness. Fitness is made up of I think 5 categories aerobic fitness/endurance, anaerobic fitness, muscular endurance, muscular strength and flexibility/mobility. Flexibility training isn't detrimental to athletic ability (in fact it's essential) it's the way people approach that is. People think stretching is just to warm the muscle up and cool it down. Proper flexibility (encompassing all types of flexibility, active flexibility requires mobility) allows you to sinker deeper into squats with ease, allows you to run with bigger steps and allows you to push harder without being warmed up (everyday life activities) and much more.

Joe, I don't use do a separate 'core' workout, but I do do specific 'core' exercises. Flexibility training will allow you to perform many gymnastics skills/exercises easier and with better form, for example say you can't do a pike press handstand and your limiting factor is your flexibility/compression if you work active pikes, perhaps some statics, you get the press handstand, you've just increased your strength and skill via flexibility. Exercises like this also build flexibility by just working them, so yes L-sits (well mainly V-sits) will build flexibility but actually stretching (separately) it can make these exercises give better returns.

Ed

P.S. Ari wrtoe:

I think you are confusing 'fitness' with 'health'. Flexibility and fitness have nothing to do with health. If you want to be healthy, eat well (but don't eat too much) and go on long walks on the beach. And don't do anything dangerous, like strength training, stretching or basically having a life.

Strength training isn't dangerous (unless approached in a dangerous manner), neither is stretching. While just cos your fit doesn't mean your healthy. However being healthy means you are fit, fitness has a lot to do with health (but not the the other way round).

[joe_fitz]

thank you very much for the feedback everyone.

I think flexibility is an often neglected aspect of fitness, and is essential in many athletic endeavors, but I agree with Ari in terms of thinking critically about why we need it.

As for passive stretching before a workout I have read many research papers which conclude that it's not so good before a workout. However once the muscles are warm and pliable (after a workout) they are better statically stretched.

Thanks again everyone, best of luck with your training

[Ari]

Yes, Ari, mobility and mobility drills are a must in a routine.

Where are you guys pulling this from? What is the logic behind the statement that they are a must? Moreover, why are resistance training exercises that challenge mobility insufficient to develop it?

Stretching is essential for more or less every sporting pursuit, and fitness. Fitness is made up of I think 5 categories aerobic fitness/endurance, anaerobic fitness, muscular endurance, muscular strength and flexibility/mobility.

Who says? I much prefer my definition that I stole from Dan John: fitness is the ability to perform a task. Nothing more. Whether this involves flexibility depends on the task. Further, the way in which this flexibility is developed also depends on the task.

Strength training isn't dangerous (unless approached in a dangerous manner), neither is stretching.

Do you really think that you can train hard your whole life without getting injured or without risking injury?

While just cos your fit doesn't mean your healthy. However being healthy means you are fit, fitness has a lot to do with health (but not the the other way round).

OK, if you are going to assert this, please define health and explain why fitness as you define it is necessary to its realisation.

Edit: Reading over this, I come across quite venomous. That really wasn't my intention. Sorry... I'm hungover.

[Edward Smith]

Edit: Reading over this, I come across quite venomous. That really wasn't my intention. Sorry... I'm hungover.

Haha.

Ok. I'll start with fitness, I can't exactly remember where I got it from, what I described was general fitness. I heard that definition of it and I liked it (so I stick to it) plus having talked to lots of people, coaches, trainers, p.e teachers and others, the genral consensus is something along those lines. There are other aspects it could contain:

-agility

-coordination

-speed

-eplosiveness

I prefer to stick mainly with just the 5. Everybody has their own definition of fitness. Your definition (and Dan John's) is similar to what I would call specific fitness. According to it, fat men, sitting on their dates watching tv all day are fit. That doesn't sound right me? :?

Next, Strength Training is it safe? well like I said before as long as it is approached in a safe manner. What is a safe manner? Well a a safe manner includes, in my opinion:

-progressive load/overload

-muscular balance

-natural/safe movements

-flexibility/mobility to move in and out of positions with ease

This is highly simplified. And what do you call safe? I can say walking isn't safe, what if you trip on the stairs?

That's all for now I'll finish this off tomorow,

Ed

[Coach Sommer]

Apples are Apples and Oranges are Oranges

Perhaps in regards to traditional conditioning such pre-hab drills are not necessary. However with regards to Gymnastic Strength Training™ such mobility drills and pre-hab exercises are essential.

I personally know, and like, Dan John. I have had several interesting conversations regarding training with him. It must be remembered however that what he does is appropriate for his chosen sport of discus throwing. For example the amount of agility and mobility required for throwing the discuss is substantially less than that required for gymnastics. What is appropriate for one is not appropriate for the other.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer