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juliusoh

Cardio

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FritsMB Mansvelt Beck

I have quite a bit of experience with both long distance endurance sports (7-12 days of 6 to 10 hrs a day of x-cntry skiing at say 60% to 70% of max heart rate with a short break to drink and eat every 1 to 2 hours), and short duration intense aerobic/anaerobic sports (rowing races of 2.5 to 8 km that last 8 to 30 minutes at 80% to 100%+ of max HR). If the OP wants to combine that type of “cardio†with BW strength training then, in my experience, he may find it very hard to gain strength. I loose strength, when I do that. In fact, with the long distance skiing, I have to be careful not to burn my muscles, because sadly I have very little body fat. However, after the events (including the training periods), I always can go back to the BW strength training with a vengeance, and quickly regain whatever strength I have lost. Again in my experience, if you (the OP) are reasonably aerobically fit, then 20 to 30 minutes of easy running 3-4 times a week (at, say, 50% to 60% of your max HR) will give you a nice way to recover from (or to warm up for) BW strength training. Loosens you up, clears the mind, may help to clean your system from waste products, burns fat. That kind of stuff. So, are you in a reasonably good aerobic running shape? If not, then your runs will tire you out and interfere with your strength training. You will find out. My advice: experiment a bit with your training. More runs, less runs, harder runs, shorter runs, easier runs, no runs, biking or just walking. Take at least half a year, before you conclude something. It takes time to find out what works for you.

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Mathias Flækøy
So how do running barefoot affect the achilles? I can feel a little discomfort in my achilles in the morning, and wondering if i should run barefoot or not.

Barefoot running is simply a variation of running with a forefoot strike. If you are experiencing discomfort, it is due to your achilles being deconditioned from not having been used for it's intended purpose in quite some time. When switching from running with a heel strike to a forefoot strike there will be a period of adaptation until the achilles becomes sufficiently strengthened.

Reduce your running distance until you reach a volume where the achilles is not excessively uncomfortable and then gradually build to your desired volume from there.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach is exactly right on this advice. A gal at my work got some Vibrams and went out and ran 5 miles on her first go. She couldn't walk very well for about a week. You've got to work into it slowly. Be prepared for some really sore calves as they start to cushion the impact instead of your joints. I've been running in Vibrams/barefoot for about a year and a half, and feel stronger in the legs. I also noticed that I was able to go farther and farther each time before pain in my knee stopped me, compared to running in shoes and heel striking.

I've recieved my Vibrams last summer and slowly built up the distance. However, i've got shin splints (well, got it before I've recieved my Vibrams, but running barefoot didn't solve the problem). Now, it's winter and my shin splints are almost gone. Currently i'm running in shoes (very cold), but when the snow disappear I think I would give my Vibrams another shot - i'm just afraid for my achilles, because i'm also walking with a heavy backpack to get prepared for the military.

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Coach Sommer

Military rucking is completely different from running and requires a totally different training template with first a controlled establishment of a basic distance (unweighted if you are extremely deconditioned), then a controlled increase of load at that basic distance, then a gradual increase of distance under load and then finally increasing speed for both distance and load.

The following is a very good program by a Nate Morrison (a PJ who is also SF medic qualified) which takes all of these variables into account: Military Rucking Program

Take the separated gradual increasing of distance, load and intensity very seriously. I still suffer today from a hip injury incurred during military training years ago when I tried to simultaneously increase all three variables.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

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AlexX
High intensity interval training is not aerobic, it is anaerobic. That is the entire reason I suggested it.

It's true that you will not be maximizing your strength gains if you do anything but strength work, but in my opinion, physical strength should not be pursued to the exclusion of all else. However, it depends on your lifestyle and goals.

HIIT is based off of work from Dr.Tabata (you can look up the study it's quite good). His work created one of the most basic interval protocol called the Tabata method 20 seconds all out 10 seconds rest. Repeat for 4 minutes. He found that doing so forced th athletes to utilize 170% of their VO2 max which is an aerobic capacity. The point of the protocol is to increase aerobic capacity and it utilizes the aerobic pathways. So interval work is indeed very aerobic. On the other hand you might have mixed up the fact that interval work also builds anaerobic capacity (to an extent) which regular aerobic activity does not but this does not mean that interval training is anaerobic.

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Mathias Flækøy

Thank you so much! I will start with that program right away. It definitely looks good and systematic. However, I also need some running to get my legs prepared, and quite not sure if two days with running would leed to injuries.

And about your hip, im sorry to hear that. I have recantly felt stiff in my right glateus medius, espacially when i'm running i'm getting that stiff-feeling. Better now tho, probably some overtraining.

Again, thanks for advices.

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Blairbob

Earlier this year, I was incorporating some barefoot runs seeing as their is a track near the gym. It also had to do with the fact I didn't really have any shoes besides a pair of snow boots and loafers or sandals. I did get some "Cons" which I mainly use at the fitness gym.

I didn't have the achilles problem but barefoot running, even at a jogging pace has time and time again crushed my calves. As well, I think the amount of walking I do, sometimes with my 20lb pack was taxing into my legs liveliness during workouts. However, I rarely use the pack now and have a bike so the hills are much easier.

Then again, since it started raining again, I don't get that much running in on that track.

Having read one of Dan John's KB metabolic swing article about 2 weeks ago, I do want to start some swinging or perhaps a lighter dumbbell complex. Where to put it amongst my schedule is the problem. Especially as I may switch to a MWF(Sa/Su) schedule vs a MTuThF.

I think having switched back to the GB WODs and doing the 1m of shuttle runs (ack!) instead of perhaps push or pull swings will help this, especially the nature of the dynamic wod's.

Doing some light cardio on training days or off days won't tax into your strength training. However, with the trend towards those in the fitness community preferring higher intensity cardio/metabolic activites due to the fact that it's technically more beneficial and effective you must be wary. I tried to insert these on my rest days and it taxed my regular workout days grievously.

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Coach Sommer
... And about your hip, im sorry to hear that ...

Thank you, my friend. I appreciate that.

I have found however that if I am regular (a few times a week) with hip prehab/rehab that the discomfort is greatly reduced. The interesting point here is that it is self regulating - if I miss too many joint prep sessions, my hip lets me know about it!

... However, with the trend towards those in the fitness community preferring higher intensity cardio/metabolic activites due to the fact that it's technically more beneficial and effective you must be wary. I tried to insert these on my rest days and it taxed my regular workout days grievously ...

This is a common misunderstanding. Higher intensity cardio work is beneficial; for more advanced athletes who have already established a solid foundation of basic endurance. For those others who insist on implementing this type of intensity prematurely, the incidence of injury becomes quite high.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

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Justin Rawley

Hmmm,

Very interesting discussion and one that brings me to the following point: It's hard to train two unrelated sports without relegating one as a supplemental exercise. Some people will cycle to different sports with the seasons, building new strength during the winter, then focusing on their "cardio" sport in the summer while doing just enough strength training to maintain the gains they acheived in winter.

I'm currently following a full-blown cycling training regimen geared for competing in 10-25 mile time trial (TT) events. These are short, fast races against the clock that require all out efforts from the cyclists, often averaging over 25 mph (sometimes more than 30 mph depending on the course). In preparing for them, I'm doing lots of interval training and/or high-output cardio 4 x a week in addition to the 3 times a week I do gymnastics circuit training with one complete day of rest. Working legs outside of cycling during the main season tends to be counteproductive, while plyometric-type training seems to be the best in winter. I have noticed that while I am making measurable strength gains in gymnastics, progress is not as quick as I would like it to be and would probably come faster if I worked less on cycling. I have also noticed that with the muscle gains in my legs, levers are actually a little harder to do than before and I've been stuck more or less at the same point in the progression with these. My bodyfat tends to run around 12% as an average, so I too have to be sure to eat during longer cardio sessions, then immediately consume protein within half an hour afterwards. Today for example, I'm supposed to do two 15-minute TT intervals at HR @ 181 bpm with 15 minute easy riding between them - this in the middle of a one and a half hour cycling workout. Tomorrow I have intense strength circuit training scheduled that incorporates many GB exercises. I don't know of a way to do both a cardio-intensive sport and a strength sport at a competitive level at the same time. If anyone has insight into this, please let me know.

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Coach Sommer
... It's hard to train two unrelated sports without relegating one as a supplemental exercise ...

Excellent point.

Yes, in terms of Gymnastic Strength Training™, running is definitely a supplemental exercise and should not be the primary focus of the conditioning program.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

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Philip Chubb

I believe cortisol would be rasied higher for a steady state run than a lifting session. Different rest time and movements. I don't quite believe in the whole aerobic base thing but I do think certain things like strengthening before hiit work such as sls and balancing the lower leg muscles.

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AlexX
I don't quite believe in the whole aerobic base thing.

It's an interesting note that being proficient in one endurance sport does not actually carry over to another. Lance Armstrong did a marathon once, he finished 856th and said that it was the hardest thing that he has ever done. Swimmers are notorious for having very poor running/sprinting endurance. The misconception of an aerobic base still persists though. The general rule of thumb that I've heard from coaches who work with athletes that require endurance for their events (say playing soccer, mma and so on) is to actually do the event more in practice to be more aerobically prepared for it, instead of hoping that jogging or interval work will carry over.

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Coach Sommer
It's an interesting note that being proficient in one endurance sport does not actually carry over to another. Lance Armstrong did a marathon once, he finished 856th and said that it was the hardest thing that he has ever done. Swimmers are notorious for having very poor running/sprinting endurance. The misconception of an aerobic base still persists though.

These are purely examples of insufficiently specific physical preparation. Regardless of how strong the cardiovascular system is, the physical structure which supports your chosen sport most also be sufficiently developed to allow that superior cardiovascular ability to be exhibited.

Furthermore, aerobic base being a misconception is a concept which only exists in the general fitness community. Every true endurance sport that I am aware of continues to support the necessity of having an adequate aerobic foundation upon which to layer intense interval training.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

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Philip Chubb

Specific CNS endurance is a different beast. So I would imagine Lance had a hard time muscularly. But I would wonder how his heart faired during the marathon.

What do we qualify as an aerobic base? Time spent running steady state for example? For someone out of shape, I simply prefer the idea of running intervals at a much diminished pace. So maybe a much less intense run during the top of the hill and a longer rest period during the bottom.

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Larry Roseman
It's an interesting note that being proficient in one endurance sport does not actually carry over to another. Lance Armstrong did a marathon once, he finished 856th and said that it was the hardest thing that he has ever done. Swimmers are notorious for having very poor running/sprinting endurance. The misconception of an aerobic base still persists though.

These are purely examples of insufficiently specific physical preparation. Regardless of how strong the cardiovascular system is, the physical structure which supports your chosen sport most also be sufficiently developed to allow that superior cardiovascular ability to be exhibited.

Furthermore, aerobic base being a misconception is a concept which only exists in the general fitness community. Every true endurance sport that I am aware of continues to support the necessity of having an adequate aerobic foundation upon which to layer intense interval training.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Tbank you for your particpation in this thread Coach. Your views on the subject are particarly interesting given your extensive training experience.

As to the previous post regarding Lance Amstrong, running his first marathon in under 3 hours with minimal

race preparation, if anything this is an argument for - not against - the carry over effect! Keep in mind that there were 25000+ male runners and he finished in the top 5%. Not too shabby really! And with specific training as you state above, he would fare even better.

I think that the strength base concept you present in GB corresponds to the aerobic base concept in endurance sports. It's rather natural to think of it that way. It's a surplus that you can draw upon to acheive your desired specific sports goal.

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juliusoh

Thank you coach.

I will start medium intensity jogging few times a week for 30 minutes then maybe put in some high intensity cardio after I get used to the cardio.

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AlexX
It's an interesting note that being proficient in one endurance sport does not actually carry over to another. Lance Armstrong did a marathon once, he finished 856th and said that it was the hardest thing that he has ever done. Swimmers are notorious for having very poor running/sprinting endurance. The misconception of an aerobic base still persists though.

These are purely examples of insufficiently specific physical preparation. Regardless of how strong the cardiovascular system is, the physical structure which supports your chosen sport most also be sufficiently developed to allow that superior cardiovascular ability to be exhibited.

That is indeed a much better way to describe it :)

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Julekman

We already have that kind of discussion earlier (about cardio). I am in martial arts many years, now as a coach, and incorporating LSD and interval training both is optimal. Of course, different goals determine different approach. But there is excellent post from Joel Jamieson (MMA coach) about debate LSD vs HIIT, and I recommend anyone to read this and finished once and for all this question. After that, read here what Coach Sommer said about it in relation to gymnastic and you have all story you need. There is no reason for me to add anything after that.

Here is the link : http://www.8weeksout.com/2010/11/06/put ... it-debate/

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Larry Roseman
We already have that kind of discussion earlier (about cardio). I am in martial arts many years, now as a coach, and incorporating LSD and interval training both is optimal. Of course, different goals determine different approach. But there is excellent post from Joel Jamieson (MMA coach) about debate LSD vs HIIT, and I recommend anyone to read this and finished once and for all this question. After that, read here what Coach Sommer said about it in relation to gymnastic and you have all story you need. There is no reason for me to add anything after that.

Here is the link : http://www.8weeksout.com/2010/11/06/put ... it-debate/

It says:

"Contrary to what you’ve been told, LSD will not cause you to become weak and slow and many of the best boxers, wrestlers, and even MMA fighters have used it in their training programs. For LSD to be effective and result in increased conditioning, I recommend doing 60-90 minute sessions using a variety of exercises."

The general consensus in this thread, including Coach's is that shorter distance aerobic work, under 30 minutes a session,is better suited for gymnastics. When you start referring to 60-90 minute sessions, it goes against most of what has been said above.

True low intensity LSD he refers to won't have a great effect unless used extensively. But similar aerobic adaptations occur during shorter load times at higher aerobic ranges, 75%ish of max, below the generally anerobic high intensity training range (80-100%). True low intensity works well when you can slog endless laps or miles at a really slow pace. That is not what is being recommended in this thread.

The article is right on regarding Tabata, in that it is misunderstood and misapplied, and HIT in general. Coach here also recommended intervals (as does the Chinese team), but also suggested that they be added in only after fully adjusting to the new work load type.

Perhaps the author is referring to highly trained athletes for whom 60-90 mintues is only a small portion of their daily training. It would not neccessarily apply to recreational althletes. As other posters suggested you need to experiment and find out what works for you. Start slow and work up. There are no real references in this article, although the trainer's experience is valuable. The references to heart rate in the article should be ignored, as they are individual. Actually he has his ahtletes going at a higher intensity than LSD calls for, which may burn out the average individual.

So, in short, though it's interesting, this article isn't necccessary to state either :lol:

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Alexander Svensson

So Coach, do you prefer to do cardio before or after the WODs?

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Philip Chubb
We already have that kind of discussion earlier (about cardio). I am in martial arts many years, now as a coach, and incorporating LSD and interval training both is optimal. Of course, different goals determine different approach. But there is excellent post from Joel Jamieson (MMA coach) about debate LSD vs HIIT, and I recommend anyone to read this and finished once and for all this question. After that, read here what Coach Sommer said about it in relation to gymnastic and you have all story you need. There is no reason for me to add anything after that.

Here is the link : http://www.8weeksout.com/2010/11/06/put ... it-debate/

Training like that for a time that is longer than not only your longest round but longer than your fight isn't the best for a fighter. I say it all the time that people can be successful because of their trainings or in spite of them. All that time is time that could be spent working other attributes that would help the fighters actual needs instead of being used for some LSD that isn't going to be affected during the fight.

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Larry Roseman
Training like that for a time that is longer than not only your longest round but longer than your fight isn't the best for a fighter. I say it all the time that people can be successful because of their trainings or in spite of them. All that time is time that could be spent working other attributes that would help the fighters actual needs instead of being used for some LSD that isn't going to be affected during the fight.

Give the coach there some credit though. He's training world class fighters. They don't need more boxing. And

having the aerobic base will benefit them in the fight, especially a long one. If their muscles tire it will give them the ability to carry on until these recover.

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Philip Chubb

Yes he is training great fighters. And I mean no disrespect for him. But it makes you wonder how much better they could be if they were not using their time on ineffective means. The hiit will build this aerobic base for you as well. And make you more effecient at gathering more energy during those short rest periods. Boxing itself is a hill training. 3 Minutes on and the one off. Why would you condition for hill training using long distance?

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Larry Roseman
Yes he is training great fighters. And I mean no disrespect for him. But it makes you wonder how much better they could be if they were not using their time on ineffective means. The hiit will build this aerobic base for you as well. And make you more effecient at gathering more energy during those short rest periods. Boxing itself is a hill training. 3 Minutes on and the one off. Why would you condition for hill training using long distance?

Ask him I guess. He uses intervals too. But they don't want to short change themselves in any department.

When you have all day to work out you can afford that :-) An average person will benefit more quickly and to a suffient degree through HIIT however this is not suffient for professional, world class and elite althletes. Both have their place and purpose. You, on the other hand, do not HAVE to do either unless you want to.

There is ample evidence for this but you will have to do a lot of reading outside of boards like crossfit to find it.

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Brendan Coad
Yes he is training great fighters. And I mean no disrespect for him. But it makes you wonder how much better they could be if they were not using their time on ineffective means. The hiit will build this aerobic base for you as well. And make you more effecient at gathering more energy during those short rest periods. Boxing itself is a hill training. 3 Minutes on and the one off. Why would you condition for hill training using long distance?

I'll preface this by saying I know almost nothing about training for fighting. Reading articles/posts on other forums from experienced coaches/trainers the multiple aspects of mental development, introspection etc... are cited as important factors of LSD roadwork. Every form of athletics I can think of can benefit from mental training... fighting I would suspect it is unbelievably important. Something to think about.

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Julekman

Sorry Phillip you don't know much about conditioning for fighters, but I dont blame you. Internet is full of instant gurus who took some reaserch, then interpreted wrong, put out of context some parts, and then say outloud, hey this is revolution, we find magic and quick program for you, just 4 minutes and you will be in a great shape, no matter what you do earlier and your physical status, and guess what, you will be stronger, and in top shape, you dont need anything else. O my god, I will be the first to sign something like that. Sorry but this is just marketing.

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