Handstand advice + more requested

[Ryan Verma]

I'm editing this post to update progress in case people don't have the time to read through the entire thread:

I've back off handstand training and i'm focusing on building shoulder strength and flexibility for the next 4 weeks before I return to training it. In the mean time, I cooked up a hybrid gymnastics-weightlifting-steady state cycle program in an attempt to combat the plateau I talked about in my original post. Basically, I picked 3 exercises that I wanted to improve and combined the FSPs with other weight training or bodyweight training to develop the muscles involved in the exercise. The workouts are as follows - critique away.

Muscle up workout:

1)MUx2 (dead hang to rings-turned-out support position) for 8 sets, resting 1.5 min between sets

2)MU transition training with the basketball - got this idea from Fritz in a different thread. 5 sets of 4 reps, 2 min rest between sets

3)tempo L-pullup - 213. 5 sets of 5 reps. 2 min rest between sets

4)v-grip pulldown - 150lbs, 5 sets of 6-8 reps. 2 min rest between sets

planche workout:

1)flat tuck planche holds on the ground for a total of 60s in as few sets as possible (it took me 6-7 sets) 45s rest between sets.

2)elevated pseudo planche pushups - 5 sets of 5, 2.5 min rest. Last 2 sets were 3 reps

3)this exercise is tricky to explain, but here goes... I laid down on a bench and took a barbell with a palms-backward grip (opposite of the way you'd normally bench press) and lowered it with straight arms to my groin/quad area and then brought it back up to about a 70 degree angle from the floor. I did 5 sets of 10 reps with only the barbell as weight.

4)planche holds with my feet on an exercise ball. i held for 5 seconds and 4 sets of 5 reps.

Front ever workout:

1)single leg front lever holds on a bar for a total of 60s in as few sets as possible. (after the first 2 sets, my form became terrible so I used flat tuck instead. finished in 6 sets) 45s rest between sets.

2) dragon flag with straddled legs - 5 sets of 8 reps, last 2 sets i only got 5 reps. 2 min rest between sets.

3) another made up exercise... i laid face down on a bench and took a 20 lb dumbbell in each hand and with palms facing toward the ceiling, i tried to lift and hold them as high as possible. I used a 2-1-3 tempo for this as well. 3 sets of 6, 2 min rest between sets.

4) couldnt think of a 4th exercise... i was grasping at straws for the third...

I intend to do these workouts on back to back days, ie MU on day 1, PL on day 2 and FL on day 3, starting again with MU on day 4. I'm starting my second MU workout today... we'll see how it goes.

ORIGINAL POST Below:

Hey all,

I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. I got into gymnastics for strength training 5 months ago using Coach Sommer's book and I'm pretty sure I'm never going back. My background is primarily weight lifting (olympic and power lifting with crossfit at one point) over the last 6 years. I'm heavily into rugby, so my weight lifting focused on squats and deadlifts, which puts me at a disadvantage for many gymnastics type things. Couple this with low flexibility, and you now understand why I'm here to make sure I'm on the right track

I set myself a goal at the beginning of the year to be able to do a freestanding handstand pushup by the end of the year which I'm diligently working towards (about 2-3 10 to 15 min sessions per week of handstand practice). However, after 2 months, I don't seem to be making much headway and I'm suffering from the same issues that have plagued me from the beginning. While doing stomach to wall handstands and trying to lift my feet off the wall, I frequently over-balance and end up going into a roll. Front and side view videos are posted below:

Handstand front view

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Handstand side view:

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At the beginning of the side view, I'm demonstrating my shoulder range of motion. Initially, I thought that low range of motion may be affecting my balance, but after seeing the video, I don't think it should be an issue. I show the position of my arms while attempting to maintain a straight back, and then I show the position of my back after lining up my arms with my legs.

As far as technique goes, from my understanding the idea is to try and line up your body in a straight line and keep the balance on the upper part of your palm (where callouses form) while using the fingers to correct balance if it goes forward. I'm attempting to keep my core tight, legs together and I'm pushing my arms straight with no bend in my elbow.

For reference, I am 5'8" and 184 lbs. Body fat is around 8-10%.

At the risk of making this post too long for anyone to care about, I'd also like some recommendations on methods to progress further. I seem to have reached a plateau after 5 months of training, but my current progress is as follows:

front lever - single leg (either side) - 15s hold

back lever - full - 20s+ hold (I did a pull to inverted at 20s, but felt like I could have held it for much longer)

planche - flat tuck on parallettes - 20s+ hold (lost it at 20s trying to press to HS, but could have held it for a bit longer)

L-sit - 15s hold on floor (I suffer greatly from low flexibility on this one)

XR support - 60s+

MU - x2 with no kip, x4 with minor kip, x5-6 with major kip

These are maximums as performed as individual exercises, and I'm 99% sure I'm using proper form based on videos and pictures. The only exercise I'm a little unsure about is the support hold, but that's because I don't understand what it means to rest on your lats. However, elbows are locked and hands are turned outward slightly.

I discovered a few weeks ago that the ability to perform these exercises individually is very different from performing them as a series on rings. I was pretty humbled by that revelation after watching videos of the ring series WODs from a few members on here and attempting them myself later on.

A typical workout for me followed the killroy70 template. However, I'm finding now that I have been stuck at flat tuck planche for over 2 months, and a straddle FL seems pretty shaky after a couple sets. I've started seriously training muscle ups to get strong enough to do a forward roll to muscle up, but I'm not sure how I should design the workouts anymore since I've plateaued with the killroy70 template.

Thanks to anyone who gets through this essay, and double thanks to anyone who can point me in the right direction!

[Archie Moses]

You can get much more thorough experiential advice from other forum members, but I'll offer up what I see. Your shoulders do not have the flexibility too hold the line properly. When you demonstrate your shoulder flexibility in the beginning of the video (side angle vid), and when you are in the handstand, your shoulders look to me as though they are too tight. When you were standing, you had to arch a bit to much to get the proper line with your shoulders.

I just went through this within the last week. For quite awhile I just thought I was lacking strength (which of course I still am) but my bigger issue was lack of shoulder flexibility. I started focusing more on flexibility and my handstands improved in 4 days!

I could not figure out why I was always overbalancing and falling over, the same way you are. Then I realized that I had to arch my back to much to get shoulders inline, thus throwing my legs over my head.

I think strength is not as big of an issue for you, it seems to me that you are progressing well in your FBEs and FSPs.

I am PRETTY SURE this is what is happening! If more experienced members chime in to correct me, take their advice first! Hopefully I can learn from it too!

Good luck!

[yuri marmerstein]

active flexibility of the shoulders is key. the better your line is, the less effort it will take for you to balance.

you got the idea, just keep stretching the shoulders every day. Some SMR with a lacrosse ball or something similar can help open you up as well.

My friend has a similar problem where he is plenty strong with good balance but has very tight shoulders and fails to get into a good line because of this

I also recommend shoulder traction with a flex band

[Ryan Verma]

Thanks for the advice!

I saw a video that Jim Bathurst from Beastskills.com (

) posted about increasing your shoulder range of motion with a yoga ball and I've been using that every day with a medicine ball since I don't have access to any other equipment at the moment. I also do the wall extensions that have been posted on this site before in a different section of the forums.

Archie, what type of shoulder stretches are you using?

Yuri, could you elaborate on what you mean by shoulder traction with a flex band? I did a search on google but found nothing conclusive.

[Blairbob]

as you move on to more difficult progressions, improvement slows down

what are your work sets for the adv tuck planche currently? rest scheme?

[yuri marmerstein]

you did a search on google?

then explain to me how this is the first article that came up for me http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... e_band_man

[Ryan Verma]

I didn't find it because I'm an idiot... I didn't look at the first one ><

I usually do the front lever, back lever and planche as one giant set, holding each for 6 seconds for 10 sets before a workout. So I do front lever single leg, then pull to inverted and lower to a full back lever, then pull back to inverted and lower as slow as I can through a front lever. Then I hop on my parallettes and hold the adv tuck planche. I rest for abut 45s to a min, and repeat.

I've noticed that the planche seems much easier on parallettes than with hands flat on the ground. If I don't use parallettes, by the 6th or 7th set, my form drops from adv tuck to a normal tuck. Is it advisable to train without parallettes instead? Or just switch it up every now and then? Should I just stick with the killroy70 template for now and just attempt to add scaled WODs on top of the 4 workouts per week?

[Archie Moses]

Rman - I am doing a combination of a lot of things to open up my shoulders and thoracic and upper back. They include:

Ido's Scapular Mobility Routine - using jumpstretch bands - 25 and 35lb resistance - you will definitely need stronger, I know I do.

Some shoulder traction similar to what Yuri posted, which I will know get more into - Thanks for that link Yuri!

Slizzardman's "fix your shoulder pain" floor stretches

bridges/wheel pose on the floor

german hangs

lots of down dogs

some back to wall handstand stretches that I saw from Steve Atlas videos on youtube - definitely look him up.

foam roller on my t-spine

AND NOW, after only about 2 weeks of hitting the above consistenly, I am beginning to work bridge wall walks for the first time, and I can actually do them now.

Also, many on this forum whose handbalancing abilities far exceed my own, has told of the opening they found in their chest/shoulders/t-spine from the Trigger Point Therapy workbook. So that is on it's way to me along with a theracane. You could probably use these tools/programs as well. I have yet to be steered wrong by the recommendations of this forum. The more I put the principles into practice, the better I get.

Another thing, I will give yet another recommendation for Pain Free by Egoscue and Stretching Scientifically by Kurz. These books have taught me a lot about my body and weak points, how to correct them, and have even equipped me to help a few friends with shoulder and back pain as well.

Was that enough!? HA! Hopefully this helps you! Like Yuri alluded to, I think you are plenty strong, but your flexibility is keeping you from utilizing your strength in the proper way. Good luck! Keep training!

[jl5555]

Are you doing HS wall runs at all?

[Ryan Verma]

jl5555 - Yes, about once or twice a week. On the days when I'm doing vertical pushing and pulling exercises, I sub out the planche holds and do HS wall runs for 15s instead. The first part of my workout would be FL, BL, HS wall run instead of FL, BL, Planche.

Archie - Thanks for the details! I've seen slizzard's youtube channel and kind of skimmed over it because I said to myself, "hey, I don't have any shoulder pain, so this probably doesn't apply to me." WRONG! I'm discovering that all of his vids are a wealth of knowledge. Even his WOD vids have very useful notes on form.

I'll see if I can get the Pain Free book from Amazon, because this is not the first time or place I've heard it mentioned. I'll also have to look into getting some proper equipment for SMR or trigger point release type stuff. Does anyone know, off the top of their head, of any reputable websites with this type of stuff that deliver to Canada?

[Archie Moses]

I made the same mistake for a long time on this site. Made note of things that were recommended, but did not act! Now that I am acting I am reaping the benfits. This site is a gold-mine!

I got all of that stuff from Amazon. So if you are able to get the book from Amazon, you should be able to get the other items as well.

[Blairbob]

rmandawg1, I used to do the levers as a giant set and will admit i did training with my boys since there was limited time, still better to get some in and scale back than not enough. i fairly enjoyed it but i have enough time to get quality time on the fsp so I do.

[jl5555]

jl5555 - Yes, about once or twice a week.

With the HS into the wall make sure you flatten your body against the wall completely, toes pointed up, hips level so that you have a flat back. You really want to feel like your are pressing strongly away from the ground, arms into the ears, toes as high as possible flattening that body against the wall.

I had posted a video of myself not long ago against the wall and Blairbob pointed out that my hips needed to be on the wall and tops of the feet as well. That was a real "a-ha" moment and has helped my HS tremendously...

[Ryan Verma]

Blair, are you saying that instead of doing the 3 FSPs in a giant set, I should do them individually, one after another? ie do 10 sets of BL with 30-45s rests between each 6-7s hold, then do 10 sets of FL, then 10 sets of planche or HS wall runs? If I were to do it this way, I assume that it would be advisable to change the order of performing these exercises periodically...

jl5555, thanks very much for the tips regarding HS wallruns. I will take those suggestions and I'll employ them in my training.

With regards to progression, should I continue to use the killroy70 template and throw in WODs randomly? I'm not quite sure what the best way to get past this plateau would be... maybe do the exercises first, and and the FSPs after?

I've decided to renew my squatting and deadlifting, even though I realize it will hamper my gymnastic progression. I've come to terms with the fact that I'm very far from being able to do the WODs as prescribed, but I need to maintain my lower body power for rugby and I can't really afford to just not work it. Hopefully combining stretching and significant ab work will help offset it, but who knows.

[Graham Smith]

Hi rmandawg1.

I notice on your front view video that your hands are placed quite widely in the stand. This will be increasing the shoulder strength required considerably. Your background in olympic lifting probably gives you quite strong shoulders, but not the small support muscles required to hold a long handstand. The best way to train these, is to reduce the load on your arm muscles by allowing the arm bones to take more support. (Consider how long you can stand with your legs together rather than standing in a straddle)

Try to actively think about physically touching your shoulders / biceps on your ears when you are in the stand. This will help by keeping your arm bones parallel and orthogonal to the ground, as well as helping you to extend away from the floor (literally pushing the floor away from your head).

Personally I do always find this more difficult to stabilise when walking up into a handstand as you have done, but once there it is easier to focus on finding the balance point. Also, when kicking up into a freestanding handstand, my arms will always be glued to my ears before and during the exercise.

[Ryan Verma]

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

After realizing that my shoulder flexibility was far behind what it should be, I decided to take some time off handstand training to focus on shoulder strength and flexibility. I've been doing slizzardman's shoulder routine along with ido's mobilization routine and traction stuff with elastics and I'm seeing results already. For the first time in recent memory, I can touch my thumb to my shoulder... barely.

I've changed up my training routine a little to try and combat the plateau. I did a week of weight lifting while I tried to think of what to do, and for the last week I've been focusing on individual FSPs or movements and training them specifically, first with body weight, then with dumbells or machines. I call it a weightlifter's approach to gymnastic training, combined with a sort of steady state cycle idea...

Basically, I picked 3 moves that I wanted to get stronger with ASAP - the muscle up (to get the elusive forward roll to muscle up) the planche and the front lever. I focused on one of these moves per day and alternated between them, depending on what felt tired. The workouts looked like:

Muscle up workout:

1)MUx2 (dead hang to rings-turned-out support position) for 8 sets, resting 1.5 min between sets

2)MU transition training with the basketball - got this idea from Fritz in a different thread. 5 sets of 4 reps, 2 min rest between sets

3)tempo L-pullup - 213. 5 sets of 5 reps. 2 min rest between sets

4)v-grip pulldown - 150lbs, 5 sets of 6-8 reps. 2 min rest between sets

planche workout:

1)flat tuck planche holds on the ground for a total of 60s in as few sets as possible (it took me 6-7 sets) 45s rest between sets.

2)elevated pseudo planche pushups - 5 sets of 5, 2.5 min rest. Last 2 sets were 3 reps

3)this exercise is tricky to explain, but here goes... I laid down on a bench and took a barbell with a palms-backward grip (opposite of the way you'd normally bench press) and lowered it with straight arms to my groin/quad area and then brought it back up to about a 70 degree angle from the floor. I did 5 sets of 10 reps with only the barbell as weight.

4)planche holds with my feet on an exercise ball. i held for 5 seconds and 4 sets of 5 reps.

Front ever workout:

1)single leg front lever holds on a bar for a total of 60s in as few sets as possible. (after the first 2 sets, my form became terrible so I used flat tuck instead. finished in 6 sets) 45s rest between sets.

2) dragon flag with straddled legs - 5 sets of 8 reps, last 2 sets i only got 5 reps. 2 min rest between sets.

3) another made up exercise... i laid face down on a bench and took a 20 lb dumbbell in each hand and with palms facing toward the ceiling, i tried to lift and hold them as high as possible. I used a 2-1-3 tempo for this as well. 3 sets of 6, 2 min rest between sets.

4) couldnt think of a 4th exercise... i was grasping at straws for the third...

I'm planning to just cycle through these 3 workouts and increase the difficulty of the exercises as required. I'll be doing the muscle up workout again today and although I was sore the last couple days after it, I'm fine today. Any critiques to this program would be appreciated... I'm not really sure where I should be going with training right now...