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ashita

How much weight can you dips as extra weight ?

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Razz

Take it easy Eddie. Try to work some more volume planche leans and/or scapula pushups and see if it helps.

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ashita

Hey guys , i stop to do weighted dips.

Ok i would have done only a few weeks of it, nothing really in one life.

In fact, my long term goal is to do a double bodyweight dips as extra weight.

Like i have reached a heavy weight without do any before, i will keep doing the same, i won't do any weighted dips anymore.

I want to see how far, how much weight i can dips without never do weighted dips even if doing it it's beneficial.

I think doing ring exercice or other FBE weighted will be more beneficial like weighted Pl pu as instance.

But i'm almost sure ,i/we have to master the advanced move on ring to be able to dips 2xBW.

what you think?

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Razz

If you want to dip 2xbw besides your weight that would probably require some specific weighted dips training because that is such an insane level of dip strength. Thats adding like 340lbs or something for your weight. You'll get plenty down the road with the ring training and then to give it that last bit you will have to do a few cycles of weighted dips.

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Joshua Naterman
It goes to show that the higher level Gymnastic Strength Training™ carries over to very good strength gains in other easier movements, but that stength gains in traditional movements does not carry over to higher level gymnastics strength

Ashita are you trying to demonstrate the opposite? That truly heavy dips have carryover over other exercises?

Sorry, I should have been less vague. It does carry over but only coupled with specific gymnastics movements like ashita just explained. My point was that by me doing only very heavy weighted dips, I am not going to be able to do a better PL or HSPUs as I get stronger at my dip without working the PL or HSPUs. The other side to that is, that by achieving the PL or improving HSPUs I will most certainly improve my weighted dip. That's why working them together(especially when you are a beast like ashita) :evil: , that is my jealous face, is highly beneficial!

And yes I know ashita, I am a freaking wimp! I still can't hold an advanced tuck PL!! Its so frustrating. I have worked up to about 2-3 sec straddle FL, an very solid 10s full lay BL, 45s L-sit on floor, and a really gross tuck PL for about 30s! The first 8-10s my hips are real high then they drop and the outside of my knees touch the inside of my arms. Feels like I am doing it wrong. I am going to tape it soon and get some digital coaching. I should be further along than this!!

You should not be considering that a 30s tuck planche, in that case. I do not mean to wound anyone's pride, but you would consider that a 8-10s tuck planche, assuming that is the point that your hips start dropping. All you're doing with the rest of those holds is teaching your body to do the wrong thing and fatiguing your CNS.

You may have much better success using ring support progressions to maintain the inner elbow conditioning you have built and just doing a few 3-4s tuck planche efforts with a good minute in between each for your SSC. The standing recommendations for being able to truly focus on tuck planche work is a 15-20s tuck planche in the proper position. Since you don't have that yet, but are clearly able to train without injuring your elbows, you should just focus on that strength work and use advanced frog and ring supports for the endurance. It works. There are a few ways you could do this. The more surefire way, in my opinion, is to have three very low intensity days where all you do is a 60s adv frog, which should be easy for you, and a good 30s ring support with the shoulders shrugged down and the body vertical. Neither of those should be terribly difficult unless you have gaps in your conditioning, and if you do these will fill them in (so to speak).

Then, once a week you will have a strength day, say Thursday for arbitrary purposes. That day you would either do a 7s, 6s, 4-5s, and 3-4s hold with around a minute between each hold or you would be doing 3-5 8s holds with a good 3-5 minutes between each hold. Obviously you could do other non-pressing conditioning in the rest time if you wanted to make things more time efficient. You should find that over the course of a few weeks those tuck planche holds become easier and easier. Don't ever take any hold but the last hold to the limit, and don't do that more than once a month. Seriously. Taking it to where you realize that in one second you're going to fail so you stop right there is nowhere near as draining as actually going through that last second to failure. This is why a lot of people in gyms are not making the progress they SHOULD be making.

Training at a true maximum intensity like that is going to be suppressive instead of stimulatory for the CNS and is completely unnecessary for progress. Sometimes it helps just to see where you are at, but keep this in mind: Elite athletes only peak twice a year, at best. That is when they put a true maximal effort out there. That's because it takes much longer than you think to be able to recover enough to produce a true maximal effort again, and trying to do that even once a month at that level can stall out progress. Even for much lower level athletes like most of us here, it's not a good idea since it really does significantly impact progress.

Once you get to where your end of SSC test shows you have a proper 20s or so tuck planche you should probably cut adv frog down to once a week and just do ring support training and actual tuck planche work. Ring supports should be done, period, so they don't really get cut back but like everything else you never put a max effort in on them unless it is end of SSC or something. Even then, you should stop when you realize you are about to lose it in a few seconds. At this point you should be able to run a proper tuck planche SSC. The once a week adv frog and daily ring supports(also at a half effort like the rest of your SSC) will keep your endurance up and the daily (4x per week) tuck planche work should stay at 8-10s holds for 5-6 sets like Coach recommends. The other thing is that all your other training needs to stay reasonable as well. If you are working as hard as you can on Bulgarian dips or swinging dips or whatever in a WOD weakness IS going to show up for the next few days in your FSP work. You put good quality work in, but you should always stop well short of failure. If Coach asks for 3 sets of 20 swinging dips and you know darn well you've only got 12 in you, and that's the best you've got, you should be doing like 8-9 per set at most. That's proper scaling.

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ashita
If you want to dip 2xbw besides your weight that would probably require some specific weighted dips training because that is such an insane level of dip strength. Thats adding like 340lbs or something for your weight. You'll get plenty down the road with the ring training and then to give it that last bit you will have to do a few cycles of weighted dips.

I think you are right, it won't remain a lot of weight to add on me, i'll have to do some cycle of weighted dips, because my body has to get used to push a lot of weight specificaly on dips i guess.

We shall see what i'll reach without do any weighted dips, the only way to know really what i'll able to do, maybe i'll reach the 2x BW directly,we can't tell anything for now, and it is 318 lbs as extra weight for a total weight of 416 lbs including my BW !!! :twisted:

I would love that some pro ring gymnast test their max, to get an idea, or even some coach's trainee here.

I'll also work towards the one arm dips and one arm HeSPU, so it'll help a lot, no doubt.

It's gonna be a long road but so much interesting.

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Eddie Stelling

Slizzardman, thank you very much for your detailed response. I am testing this week and will have my new SSC all planned out by the end of the week. I really appreciate the advice and I will definitely listen. It's becoming rather dis-heartening to go nowhere with it, to the point where I am getting tired of trying. So, I think a fresh approach will definitely help me out mentally as well. Thanks alot! I will be posting my new SSC at the end of the week but I do have a question if you or anyone else can answer before I post the new SSC.

- What do I do if I can hold a harder position for 20s or more but can only hold the previous position for 50s? I.E. tuck FL hold was 50s, but I can hold an advanced tuck for close to 30s (even pulled off a straddle FL for about 2s in a ring series WOD). Do I continue working my tuck FL to 60s or move on? Thanks in advance!

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ashita

From my personal experience, if i was you, i would go for Adv.tuck directly.

I never waited to do 60 sec at any variation and never did straddle front lever either, i went from adv.tuck to one leg, and i was able to hold the tuck and adv.tuck about 25-30 sec before move on, and i have a very strong front lever now.

The 60 sec are not indispensable, but there is certainly others benefices to get from it. By the way i wonder what besides endurance.

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Razz

The longer holds are safer goals to strive for in terms of joint health.

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Eddie Stelling

I have always wondered about this because this is the case with my BL too. I can hold a full lay BL with solid form for around 10s. I have been working the adv. tuck BL in my SSC for 3x20s and I am worried that when I test this week I will not get a 60s in adv. tuck BL. However, I think I should be able to move on. I see both of your points and can definitely defend Razz because I couldn't do a palms down BL on rings when I started my 1st SSC, and after working only 3x20s german hangs I could hold a 5s straddle BL with palms down. So I know what you mean Razz, it's definitely the safer method on the joints while still continuing to build strength. But on Ashita's point of view, when you can successfully hold the next progression up for a substantial amount of time (enough to train it), why should you waste time achieving that full 60s, especially being so close to the full 60s? This is a gray area to me. I can understand when you can't hold the next progression then you should stay where you are and work to the full 60s. Do you think a couple of weeks of both as slizzardman described above for my PL question would be appropriate? Sorry to change the topic on the thread, I will be posting my new stuff either Friday or Saturday. If you guys want to wait and take a look at it then that's cool too. I really appreciate everything.

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Joshua Naterman

I can tell you that doing the split approach I suggested has worked for the few people who have PM'd me asking about such things. There's always more than one way to get to a goal, but in my experience that one has worked well. it allows you to maintain your strength while you build up the stability in the easier position.

From a functional perspective the purpose of the longer holds is primarily to help ensure that the stabilizers are strong enough to protect the joints in lower leverage positions. They do help you build strength as well, but all the strength in the world just sets you up for injury if you can't maintain a stable joint. I will say that as body size goes up those times should probably be adjusted slightly, but I would never suggest that anyone try a straddle before having a perfect and solid 30s advanced tuck, even at my size. That shouldn't be impossible, but I may end up revising that slightly. It makes sense that as the frame gets bigger you have to account for the non-linear relationship between bodyweight and shoulder size. You don't just get leverage that's twice as good when you're twice as big, so the force curves are going to be different. Even so, the perfect stability is the single most important thing you can have. Someone who has a 30-35s perfectly stable adv tuck PL is going to have better luck moving on to straddle than someone who has a 60s adv tuck that starts to wobble or shake around 20s with slowly lowering hips.

As for weighted dips, I did like 2 reps with 90 lbs today for a ~300 lb total including bodyweight. I am weak from not doing these for so long! These are part of my upper body strength circuit for the next month or so, and we should see some pretty spectacular soreness along with noticeable increases in strength from now to mid-March. Hopefully by next year I'll be back up to 20 reps or so with 100 lbs.

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ashita

Well, i profit we are speaking about the static hold to ask a question.

Like i said above, i never waited to reach the 60 sec for any variation.

I have a very strong full planche, and full front lever too.

About the FL, i'm working on it with weights hung on my ankle now.

My question is :

If i work to up my adv.tuck FL to 60 sec. Will i have a better transfert of strength/endurance over the weighted FL ?

I mean, if i'm able to hold 60 sec the adv.tuck, my tendons will be more strong, more endurant, and i guess, i'll able to handle an heavier session of training, as instance the weighted FL, right ?Afterwards do same thing with the One leg...

I mean, is it helpfull to up my adv.tuck to 60 sec while working at the same time on my weighted FL.?

Same question about planche, i'm wondering even the fact i have a very strong full planche, could it be helpfull to up my adv.tuck or even tuck to 60 sec?

As well to keep increasing my time on the straddle pl.

Doing this will help me to increase my time on the full planche ? and of course do it weighted afterwards.

thanks in advance

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Alexander Moreen

IMO for someone at your level (25ish second front lever right?), I'd work straddles (go for a 60 second straddle front lever) for endurance and tendon strength and weighted dynamic moves like slow controlled front pulls for strength. Getting a 60 second tuck/adv tuck is to prepare your tendons for straddle/fulls, your tendons were already strong enough to handle that load, so you are good on that imo.

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Joshua Naterman

I agree, though it is never a sure thing. If you have a 25-ish second FL you will probably find a 60s adv tuck feels like a waste of your time. If you have trouble with that I will be surprised, for one, though endurance IS different than strength. If you hit a solid 40+ second hold and you never train endurance like that you are fine in my opinion. That will literally just be your body not being used to endurance work.

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ashita
IMO for someone at your level (25ish second front lever right?), I'd work straddles (go for a 60 second straddle front lever) for endurance and tendon strength and weighted dynamic moves like slow controlled front pulls for strength. Getting a 60 second tuck/adv tuck is to prepare your tendons for straddle/fulls, your tendons were already strong enough to handle that load, so you are good on that imo.

Nah not 25 sec yet, i even lost some of my time on the FL because i haven't do a lot of FL static this last 2 month , but i hold it easily 15 sec..

I hate straddle , i never did it, i haven't a good flexibility.

I already do weighted fl pull and also fl pull up.

I agree, though it is never a sure thing. If you have a 25-ish second FL you will probably find a 60s adv tuck feels like a waste of your time. If you have trouble with that I will be surprised, for one, though endurance IS different than strength. If you hit a solid 40+ second hold and you never train endurance like that you are fine in my opinion. That will literally just be your body not being used to endurance work.

Yes like you say , endurance is different than strength , and i never worked on long hold, it's possible i haven't a long adv.tuck hold.

i will try my max soon nad then i'll get an idea to work on what variation.

thanks anyway guys.

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Justin Kyle

Hey Slizzardman,

Hope you are well man. I have a question in regards to FSP and planche progression. Here is my situation, my max hold 2 weeks ago for tuck planche was 15 seconds (can post a video of it later for critique if needed). I am currently in the 2nd week of my next cycle doing 8sets of 8 sec tuck planche holds. All of these holds felt very good most of the first week. However, this week I am finding that 8 seconds feels like my max when doing my FSP warmup. I don't know if this is just my body trying to get used to the new load or what but I'm sure fatigue from the WODs plays a part in it as well. When this type of thing happens, what should be done for the rest of the FSP for that day as well as if this problem persists? Thank you for your help my friend

Justin

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Joshua Naterman

I would probably just lower your volume from 8 sets of 6 seconds to 3-5 sets of 8 seconds, just in general, is going to help you make better and more consistent progress. When your max hold hits 30s drop to 3-4 sets of 15s, and when you hit 40s 2-3 sets of 20s. Do the lower number of sets on days you're not as strong. You will usually have more trouble with the holds after we have a bunch of upper body WODs and that's normal! It happens 1-2x per month.

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Justin Kyle

Cool, that is what I did today. I have had trouble in the past increasing my tuck planche time after 2 WOD cycles and I don't want that to happen again. It's been at fifteen seconds for those two cycles each time. I have no clue what could have been wrong but I have been implementing planche leans on an exercise ball and additional press handstand work each on a different day to supplement planche strength. Do you think this will be effective?

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Seiji

(about OP, didn't read the thread yet)

I am working on your Saiyan requirements and today I tried dips with weight; only managed to get 35lbsx5. Still, that's the 25% I was looking for :P First time I've ever done weighted dips. I really like them, and I got a feeling I'll be doing them more often.

I weigh 135 pounds... my back lever is really hard with an advanced tuck planche and I can only do a few advanced tuck PPU, but my back (although straight) drops at the end. I get almost no ROM with them so the only reason I know is because I just tried it haha

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bob.giles24

People who can do daily can get upto 50, but my case am irregular :( just 20 per day maximum...

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