Raw Vegan Diet

[Tao]

I want to start eating raw...fruits, vegatables, nuts, seeds. I see great benefit from this kind of a diet as it was once a common thing to see with our past ancestors. Question is, I don't make very much money, so would anyone have any suggestions on what I should buy. I have an idea but would like another opinion from someone who lives this type of diet lifestyle. Specialy since I make very little money...

THANKS!

[Razz]

Vegans die from vitamin B12 deficiency. Humans are omnivorous. Please don't do this to yourself if it's to see benefits.

[Adam Rezner]

Vegans die from vitamin B12 deficiency. Humans are omnivorous. Please don't do this to yourself it it's to see benefits.

Very dramatic, Razz, but also true.

Number one, humans have been cooking for anywhere from 500,000 to 1 million years. We have evolved to cook, so I don't see any benefit from eating 100% raw. It is true that cooking diminishes some nutrient content, but it also makes some nutrients more available, so it's a wash in my opinion. Eating some things raw and some cooked is the best way to go.

Number two, there is absolutely NO REASON to go vegan. Humans are omnivores, which means we need meat in order to be optimally healthy. It's a simple fact that our gut is not big enough for us to derive all the calories and nutrients we need from plants only. Look at a biology book and compare the digestive systems of herbivores, carnivores, and omnivores and you will see what I mean. You will never be healthy as a vegan, and as soon as you start you will begin a long, slow decline into sickness and disease.

If you would like more information on why you should not go raw vegan, and what you should be eating instead, please let me know.

[Nicholas Sortino]

Vegans die from vitamin B12 deficiency. Humans are omnivorous. Please don't do this to yourself if it's to see benefits.

B12 isnt the only one. K2 cannot be found in plant sources. I don't think D3 is either. There's more but I don't care to look it up right now.

If you feel you need to eat this way out of personal beliefs and not health concerns, I would urge you to consider adding milk and eggs to your diet. Neither of these involve killing a living creature and between the two contain most if not all of the essential vitamins you cannot find in vegetarian sources. Not to mention a healthy dose of much needed quality protein and saturated fats, which are also rare to find in vegan diets. Also, eggs and milk are very cheap. 1doz eggs can be as cheap as $2 and a gallon of milk around $3. Heck, that is food for and entire day right there at only $5. Or at least breakfast for a week for $10.

[yuri marmerstein]

My friend does this, except he pretty much only eats fruits and vegetables. It's terrible, but I respect him for sticking with it. It's quite rare for someone to make a change to their life and actually follow through with it.

Anyway, he buy his fruits from the supplier. In giant crates/boxes. He gets good deals, but there are downsides to this as well. One time he invited a bunch of people over because he literally had over a hundred plantains that were about to turn.

I'll follow suit and tell you not to be a vegan. They all look very skinny and underdeveloped. Plus, the reason we evolved to be who we are is because we cooked meat with fire. This made it take less energy to break down and thus left nutrients for advanced brain development.

Looking at animals, the ones who only eat plants are usually big and dumb and have to constantly eat all day. The ones who eat meat are smarter, and only have to eat once in a while.

But it's your choice.

[sean.albo]

I trained for many years on a vegan diet (not raw). I absolutely never associated with the vegan ideology, and never labeled myself as such, but to be fair, I ate nothing from animals. I looked into raw food, but the idea seemed a bit unnecessary, and I could see no particular benefits. I never did have a problem with my health; most days, I trained 2-3 times a day, accumulating 3-5 hours / day (capoeira, ring training, handbalance, dance). I have always weighed less than most people for my height (145-150 at 6'1) but I've always had consistent strength gains. I prefer, as an athletic dancer (and capoeirista) to maintain my physique while accumulating strength gains.

Recently, having read about paleo diet, I started experimenting with eggs and minimizing grain consumption. I eventually decided to incorporate eggs into my diet, and don't regret this. I struggled with the ethical matter of consuming eggs. I don't think egg consumption is inherently problematic, but with factory farming and very lax regulations, I am still slightly uncomfortable. But I feel healthy, and that for me is of utmost importance. Grains are not a staple in my diet, and I feel good about this. I have also incorporated fish oil, mostly hoping that it will benefit a rotator cuff injury.

So, about suggestions: eating well can be cheap. I try to avoid depending on grains as a primary source of calorie because I feel that vegetables and fruits can meet energy need with a more nutrient rich profile. My diet now consists of daily eggs, almonds, avocados, tomatoes, peppers bananas, and other fruit, and I cook with potatoes, rice, squash, beans. As regards money, what I eat is cheap, but even if it wasn't, I'd still eat it. Your food is one of the primary relationships you have with your body; better make it a good one. I recall hearing that people used to spend a much greater percentage of their paychecks on food. I'd rather spend money on food than on a television. But that's a personal thing

I have read of vitamin b12 deficiencies, but have also read that many plant foods are contaminated with b12-producing bacteria. When I ate as a vegan (and still, consuming only eggs and fish oil), have had an absolute minimum of health problems. While I agree that humans have evolved as omnivores, with a digestive tract that is clearly capable of handling both animal and plant products (I differentiate that from saying that we are meant to eat animal products. I don't know what people mean by "meant by." Meant by what, meant by who?), I find it hard to believe that there are nutrients in animal that are not acquired through other foods (I've only heard of B12 as the absolutely nonvegan vitamin, and as I've mentioned, that is under strong contention regarding the fact that bacteria live in our food production).

I am glad to tell you of all my disagreement with vegan mentality, but I think what is most key is how unyielding it is. Veganism is an extremist approach to nutrition and sociopolitical ideology. Your diet should not be a political statement; it is your health, your wellbeing. I recommend against identifying with the vegan label or philosophy; this is about food, not your identity as a person. I'm happy to have started consuming eggs (one of the most delicious aspects of my day ).

My friend once told me that people take food and diet so personally, that they become mad when somebody tells them they are mistaken. It's interesting, no? Anyways, I know this post runs counter to most GB-mentality; I don't mind being told I'm wrong, in fact, I appreciate it, given substantiation that deepens my own knowledge/understanding of human biology and nutrition.

There exist many resources for vegan athletes. Organic Athlete is one such resource. There are many others. A simple google search for "vegan athlete" will provide you plenty of material.

Good luck figuring out a diet,

.sean

[Neal Winkler]

There will always be people who can thrive many standard deviations from the norm. Most people who do well on vegan diets don't realize that they are simply statistical anomalies, and then try to extrapolate their unusual proclivities and experience to the general population.

[Chris Hansen]

I'll follow suit and tell you not to be a vegan. They all look very skinny and underdeveloped.

Mike Mahler is one example of a vegan who is pretty well developed but he would be the first to tell you that you have to do some research and make sure you're getting the right nutrition. Also remember that people have different nutritional needs and a diet that works for one might not be ideal for another.

[David Barclay]

Tao, although he does not follow a raw diet, I suggest you read up on Brendan Brazier. He is an ironman triathlete, one heck of a good runner, and also a vegan. He has published a couple books on the subject, and also has his own line of supplements. I am a vegetarian, and come from an endurance athletic background - ironman triathlons and marathons. From my sample size of 'me,' I find a non-meat eating diet is personally sustainable.

But I do personally eat dairy and eggs (you obviously don't want to), but Brazier is a serious vegan.

http://www.brendanbrazier.com/

From my own perspective of balancing dietary choices against heavy training, don't jump into a diet, let the diet come to you. In other words, start eliminating food you find questionable, and work at looking for suitable replacements. I started with red meat; in retrospect it was easy, as I always used to feel bloated the day after eating it. But replacing day to day protein sources like chicken was harder, it took a lot of trial and error to find the right plant based alternatives that still gave me good bang for my buck.

When I was pretty involved in triathlons (over 10 years ago) the diet of the day was the Zone diet. Lots of signal to noise ratio of people going on about how wonderful it was, and how it was the revolutionary concept for endurance athletics. It is still around, people still use it, but every second triathlon related dietary article is not screaming it from the rooftops. Key take away point - research properly, educate yourself, don't get caught up in the dominate dietary ideologies. Focus on what works for you.

happy eating,

David

[sean.albo]

Brendan Brazier is an inspiration, definitely. He did a short piece with two other athletes, Robert Cheeke (sp?) and Tonya Kay.

Tonya Kay is a raw vegan. And she doesn't look unhealthy to me :wink:

http://tonyakay.com/

[Joshua Naterman]

Keep in mind that an endurance diet is absolutely nothing like a strength athlete's diet, and neither is their training. Higher carb diets always tend to work well with this population because they burn an incredible amount of glycogen each day. You do have to somewhat eat for who you are and what you do. Outside of obvious differences in nutritional requirements for various activities there is no one standard for a diet because there are multiple genetic lineages within humanity and everything from what macronutrient breakdowns you feel best with to what diseases you are most and least likely to get is influenced by who your ancestors were and where/how they lived.

Having said that, at the very least you need sources of fat-soluble vitamins and essential nutrients that are not found in plants. These days I suppose a few expensive multivitamins that cover the most important micronutrients that you would be deficient in would be able to make up for the inherent lack that vegan diets create. You will need to learn about proteins and what foods to have in order to get a full spectrum of proteins that you need into your body. That is tough sometimes, don't think it isn't. There is a big difference between a diet you can live off of and a diet you can thrive off of. Thriving is more than just not dying, it is about being able to reach all of your goals. A [raw] vegan diet will not support your optimum level of recovery or performance on its own if you intend to make a lot of strength gains. That doesn't mean you can't do it, or that you won't be able to make progress in your workouts, but it does mean that you will be limiting yourself.

As has been mentioned many times already, dairy products will be important as will eggs. Eggs are probably the cheapest protein on the planet if you buy a 5 dozen case. That's 60 eggs x ~7g protein per egg = 420g protein for 6 bucks or so where I live. To compare, a gallon of decent milk costs the same and won't even have half that protein. That means that for about 18 bucks you would be getting the same amount of protein as you would in a 40-50 dollar 5lb bucket of protein powder. You could get the cheapo 30 buck 5lb whey powder but you'll be farting up a storm sir, AND you'll be paying almost double. Eggs are awesome unless for some reason you simply will not eat them.

Of course there are a number of benefits to eating many of your fruits and vegetables raw, and that is in the enzymes and phytochemicals as well as other heat-sensitive micro-nutrients such as Vitamin C. Juicing them is a great, great way to get that stuff, just make sure you consume the pulp as well. You need the fiber. You will, however, run the risk of taking in way too much fructose unless you are intelligent about how much juice you have at any one time.

There are so many ways to eat that work... just make sure you are not setting yourself up for long term nutrient deficiencies or disease!

[Tao]

Thanks everyone for your advice! It seems to be kinda looked at negatively for the most part. I guess it's all about personal choice and what your goals are. However, I did some research on the topic and found some athletes that follow this diet strictly. Of course the majority said that it is no easy diet path to take. Hmmm...I've also seen some pictures of these athletes and they look just as healthy as any other athletes. There are also some bodybuilders that follow this! And they're huge! :shock:

Decisions, decisions.

could someone explain?

[Nicholas Sortino]

Thanks everyone for your advice! It seems to be kinda looked at negatively for the most part. I guess it's all about personal choice and what your goals are. However, I did some research on the topic and found some athletes that follow this diet strictly. Of course the majority said that it is no easy diet path to take. Hmmm...I've also seen some pictures of these athletes and they look just as healthy as any other athletes. There are also some bodybuilders that follow this! And they're huge! :shock:

Decisions, decisions.

could someone explain?

I am going to quote Triangle here. His answer is pretty accurate, imo.

There will always be people who can thrive many standard deviations from the norm. Most people who do well on vegan diets don't realize that they are simply statistical anomalies, and then try to extrapolate their unusual proclivities and experience to the general population.

Just because it works for some people doesn't mean it is a good idea or will work for most people. Those are probably people who would be fairly healthy/strong no matter what. Look at Michael Phelps for example. His diet is absurdly atrocious, yet he is the fastest swimmer in the world. That is not because of his diet, but in spite of it. You can't look at him and say, well, he is ripped and fast, so it must be a good diet.... And the same goes for other bad diets that people do great things on in spite of it.

[Philip Chubb]

Triangle and Nick bring up great points. It is possible to do okay on any diet. And some people, such as Phelps, can do well on a horrible diet. But it makes you wonder, if he ate better, how much more amazing would he be? Even if you can excel on a less than optimal diet, that may mean that you would simply dominate on a better one.

[Blairbob]

So far, I'm not a big fan of vegetarianism in the gymnasts I have had who come from vegetarian families. However, I think mainly this is because they weren't eating enough in the first place kcals wise much less protein. Most were lacto-ovo vegetarians though some would eat fish or only chicken, etc. Let's not get into the types. Quite a few ended up being iron deficient as well. Mainly I was annoyed with gymnasts who were not able to perform due to a lack of nutrition on their or their familes part ( don't we all know how vegetarianism gets big with girls post puberty?)

I, myself, had a stint with vegetarianism some years ago due to curiousity and yes, there was a female in question. It was a rough 30 days but I'm sure I could do it better nowadays were I to just include dairy and eggs (which I didn't eat much of back then).

My training over that 30 days was lousy and I was either tired or irritable at times, probably from not eating enough besides trying to function on what I was doing before. And of course, it pist off my dad at the time, though my friends got a good laugh about it. Some of my sensei in HighSchool were macrobiotics so that was a notion that I had played around with in HS.

I did like Mike Mahler's guide to being a vegetarian nutrition wise and sent it to one of my friends who is an ovo-vegetarian and likes to espouse that to his gymnasts. He was also big on the China Study but I'm not sure if he ever looked into the rebuffal on that.

[Neal Winkler]

Thanks everyone for your advice! It seems to be kinda looked at negatively for the most part. I guess it's all about personal choice and what your goals are. However, I did some research on the topic and found some athletes that follow this diet strictly. Of course the majority said that it is no easy diet path to take. Hmmm...I've also seen some pictures of these athletes and they look just as healthy as any other athletes. There are also some bodybuilders that follow this! And they're huge! :shock:

Decisions, decisions.

could someone explain?

I already did. They are just statistical anomalies.

[Animalonfire]

Tao, what's your take on lesser cuts of meat? What I mean is things like organs, and awkward pieces of the animal that would otherwise get thrown out. Would you go for meat that was just within it's display date, and otherwise doomed for the bins? (I work in a food shop on Sundays, we are not allowed to touch any rejected stock(not even take a single banana from a bunch!))

If I were a vegetarian/vegan, I'd be looking into what animal products I could get at without compromising my principles, just as being a paleo eater I might still eat some white rice or sprouted grains(hugely decreased anti nutrients in both cases) because avoiding grains isn't the objective, it's just the means to an end.

Of course I could see why you'd rather not bother. I have no idea where the lines would be drawn and explaining to someone "I'm a vegan" is far easier than "I'm basically a vegan but...". But honestly and truly, waste is everywhere. If I were killed for meat I'd be very upset if I were allowed to rot in the rubbish(I appreciate that there is a paradox to the sentence). Just me

[Blairbob]

I have heard and read that it is not a good idea to eat any of the filter organs if they come from a cow that is grain-fed. Thus, if we are talking about a free range, grass-fed cow, it's all good. If not, do not eat any intestine, liver, spleen, etc.

Heart is a decent cut of meat, especially if marinated.

[Joshua Naterman]

With liver it is also best to eat the liver of a young animal. Calf's liver is preferable to cow's liver, for example. You only need like 1-2 OZ a day, so if you're paying 5 bucks a lb (which would be somewhat high) you still only pay something like 10 bucks a month for the best B vitamin supplement on the planet.

[Tao]

Wow thanks everyone for your input! I decided to keep on eating meat! I can't resist a good steak, fish, or chicken...