Which Dips variation to progress to? RTO or Weighted?

Hey Guys/Coach Sommer,

I'm trying to figure out which Dips variation to progress to that will help me most with achieving my current strength goals.

I've been doing regular body weight ring dips for the past few weeks now (rings parallel to each other not turned in), and I'm at the point where I can do 3x10 with very little rest in between (probably about 2 minutes for the whole 3x10 incl. the rest between sets), perfect form, and explosively. Simply put, they've gotten really easy.

My current strength goals (for upper body) on which I've been working for the past few months are: Front/Back Lever, Planche, Freestanding HeSPUs, Pike Press HS, V-Sit.

Should I increase the difficulty by adding more weight and just doing them the same way, or should I increase the difficulty by transitioning to RTO (Rings Turned Out) Dips? Which variation will give me more "bang for the buck" in terms of developing the strength necessary in order to reach my goals faster (at least the pushing strength ones)?

Any advice/input would be greatly appreciated! Particularly if coach Sommer would be kind enough to give some input I would be over the moon!

Thanks for reading!

Roman

1: what about bulgarian dips?

2: Your options could be to chose RTO dips or HSPU variations. Coach says you can do weighted dips but it's not necessary. Personally I'd rather move on to a harder version until I master the hardest dip and HSPU variation and only then start adding weight.

3: lets say RTO is hard as hell you can do some blended sets: RTO-->bulgarian-->normal

Razz said:

1: what about bulgarian dips?

2: Your options could be to chose RTO dips or HSPU variations. Coach says you can do weighted dips but it's not necessary. Personally I'd rather move on to a harder version until I master the hardest dip and HSPU variation and only then start adding weight.

3: lets say RTO is hard as hell you can do some blended sets: RTO-->bulgarian-->normal

Hey Razz,

Thanks for the Reply! Actually I find Bulgarian dips to be even easier... also I'm doing HSPUs work anyway alongside the dips (I'm doing freestanding HeSPUs negatives), and this combination has worked very well results wise so far. My question is specifically geared towards where to go next with the dips, not in terms of general exercise selection and workout plan (which I already have).

The reason I'm asking about RTO vs. Weighted Ring Dips is that when you do the RTO dips the focus is more on your chest and shoulders, while in the "regular" dips variation, the stress is more evenly distributed with the triceps as well. So I'm just wondering what will be more effective in terms of getting stronger for planche and Freestanding HeSPUs. i.e. which exercise will result in more "carry over" strength towards doing those elements.

Generally my pushing exercise selection consists of: Pseudo Planche PUs (on parallettes), Tuck Planche holds & Planche Leans, Back lever holds (which I can hold at the tucked lay position atm... almost got the full BL), Ring Dips, and freestanding HeSPUs negatives.

Thanks,

Roman

If I were you I would take it to the wall and add some ROM to the HeSPU (I take it if you're working freestanding you've already got the full wall HeSPU down?)

Svend said:

If I were you I would take it to the wall and add some ROM to the HeSPU (I take it if you're working freestanding you've already got the full wall HeSPU down?)

Guys, again, Thanks for the advice but you're missing the point... I want advice particularly as to which variation of Dips is more effective at training strength for planche/back lever/hspus... I don't need advice about other exercises at the moment.

As to adding ROM, since I'm doing negatives right now I don't think there's any point to doing that yet. My plan is to first be able to do positives as well, and then work on solidifying HeSPUs before starting to increase the ROM towards full HSPUs.

I'm not sure I understand why it is that you need to be doing dips? If the motion is getting to easy for you the natural thing would be to move on to a harder motion that works the same muscles. Sure you could be doing weighted dips but you could also be doing even more weighted push-ups - I'm sure you get my point. If you want to keep doing dips I'm sure you'll progress well adding weight but adding volume to your HSPU progressions will probably do you at least as well. The RTO dips, while probably being quite beneficial for reaching your goals, I personally consider quite a different skill but that's just my take on it.

Svend said:

I'm not sure I understand why it is that you need to be doing dips? If the motion is getting to easy for you the natural thing would be to move on to a harder motion that works the same muscles. Sure you could be doing weighted dips but you could also be doing even more weighted push-ups - I'm sure you get my point. If you want to keep doing dips I'm sure you'll progress well adding weight but adding volume to your HSPU progressions will probably do you at least as well. The RTO dips, while probably being quite beneficial for reaching your goals, I personally consider quite a different skill but that's just my take on it.

Well, dips is a good exercise that strengthens the chest, shoulders, and triceps, so it's a good general conditioning exercise which builds up strength for other elements. My strategy is to work on the elements themselves, and also add some conditioning exercises along side them to compliment them. So far it's been going very well so I don't see any reason to change things up.

As for more volume with the HeSPUs, like I said, since I can't even do ONE positive, there is no point in adding MORE volume at this time. You only add more volume when you feel you've gotten everything you're ever going to get from what you're currently doing, which is far from being the case in my situation. No, right now the volume I do with HeSPUs negs is just right for me. Anything more will lead to injuries and overtraining. Also dips/hspus are two different exercises, so I don't really understand why your advice is to stop doing dips and focus more on hspus? It makes no sense.

Svend said:

The RTO dips, while probably being quite beneficial for reaching your goals, I personally consider quite a different skill but that's just my take on it.

Yep, that's exactly the heart of the matter right there. They are quite different. This is exactly the reason I want to know which is more beneficial, RTO Dips or weighted Ring Dips. And I don't want a *probable* answer either, I want a definite answer

Cheers!

Roman there is no definite answer but here's my take:

RTO dip is good for rings planche

korean dips for regular planche

when these dip variations become to easy, either start embedding them or move on to HSPU variations and put the dips on maintenance. For example once 3x10 RTO dips become easy, move on to 1x10 RTO dip and 3 sets of HSPU.

RTO dip and a korean undergrip are quite similar in the angles. One is on an unstable surface, one is not.

Ideally weighted dips should be kept to stable surfaces, imo. You can do weighted dips on rings but stabilizers can become a limitation.

I think Steve and I would agree that RTO dips, especially once your hands are able to face forward completely are more difficult than Bulgarian dips on rings. I remember them being so.

Sounds odd that you can do ring dips, bulgarian ring dips and still not be able to do a HeSPU. Or was that a free HeSPU?

Blairbob said:

RTO dip and a korean undergrip are quite similar in the angles. One is on an unstable surface, one is not.

Ideally weighted dips should be kept to stable surfaces, imo. You can do weighted dips on rings but stabilizers can become a limitation.

I think Steve and I would agree that RTO dips, especially once your hands are able to face forward completely are more difficult than Bulgarian dips on rings. I remember them being so.

Sounds odd that you can do ring dips, bulgarian ring dips and still not be able to do a HeSPU. Or was that a free HeSPU?

Actually I used to do Weighted Ring Dips with quite a bit of weight (reached up to 38Kg added weight if I remember correctly; that's about ~83lbs). I just stopped doing them for a long time and now getting back into shape with them. With regards to Bulgarian dips, I honestly always found them to be quite easy... RTO Dips are significantly more difficult from my experience (yes I used to do these as well).

The problem with my training used to be over enthusiasm and over training, lack of long term patience, and also lack of concrete modest goals and workout structure. This is why I got really strong with some exercises but overall I did not reach any of the strength skill goals I was looking to get and then I just stopped and re-thought my entire approach to training, and now I'm building my strength up again but doing it correctly this time and doing better than I ever did. So I now reached the point at which I'm again getting my strength with dips back, and I'm wondering which variation to focus on more now to get the best results with my skill training.

And yeah, those were FREE HeSPUs I was talking about... right now I can do slow controlled negatives to a headstand, but not push back up, so I'm working on that until I am able to start doing positives and then solidify them before I transition to full ROM HSPUs on parallettes.

Thanks!

Blairbob said:

RTO dip and a korean undergrip are quite similar in the angles. One is on an unstable surface, one is not.

Ideally weighted dips should be kept to stable surfaces, imo. You can do weighted dips on rings but stabilizers can become a limitation.

I think Steve and I would agree that RTO dips, especially once your hands are able to face forward completely are more difficult than Bulgarian dips on rings. I remember them being so.

Sounds odd that you can do ring dips, bulgarian ring dips and still not be able to do a HeSPU. Or was that a free HeSPU?

The part in bold describes me. I am terribly weak overhead.

Well the good thing about having major weaknesses is that you know what to work

If regular ring dips are too easy, consider adding one or all of the following options to your conditioning:

1) Russian Dips on the rings.

2) HSPU on the rings.

3) Muscle-up to hollow back to negative inverted muscle-up.

4) Inverted muscle-ups.

5) Swinging dips to HS on rings.

6) Hollow back press HS on rings.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Might aswell add bowers on the rings to the list now that you're mentioning these torture elements coach