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ashita

The close to impossible : crazy move

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ashita

67214_1644137184596_1271877910_1795695_979209_n.jpg

is Jasper Benincasa

he called it " Close To Impossible" and he said he held it about 3 sec

What muscles that primarily mainly?

The grip matters a lot i think.

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Alessandro Mainente

lats, pecs and triceps..

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Aaron Griffin

I've seen this referred to by the acronym: CTI

It's quite an amazing goal to have. I wonder if any pro gymnasts could do it?

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Marlon

Im pretty sure that no gymnast could do that, it looks like it takes ridiculously strong grip strength to keep your body's center of gravity behind the bar. And from what i understand, grip / forearm strength isn't really something that is developed all that strongly even in high level gymnastics

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John Sapinoso
And from what i understand, grip / forearm strength isn't really something that is developed all that strongly even in high level gymnastics

Not true, ring giants require a tremendous amount of grip strength. Although I still don't think any gymnast could do that, it would require specialization. Maybe cisco (ableteam on youtube) could give it a shot to give us some perspective on how hard it is.

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ashita
Maybe cisco (ableteam on youtube) could give it a shot to give us some perspective on how hard it is.

Good idead ! i will send him a message if he can do a video of his attempt 8)

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rubadub
What muscles that primarily mainly?

Legs? :wink: I wonder how you would get in that position

Some more feats

Jasper Benincasa height 67.5" 130lb From Benincasa: 1Chin + 265 lbs. He claims to have done a cross while supporting an additional 90 lbs. And a cross with one finger on each ring. From Willoughby: 14 consecutive OAC. One-finger one-arm front lever on a ring (middle finger) - 1946.

http://www128.pair.com/r3d4k7/Chinups.html

It would be interesting if people tried to simulate it with assistance, like with a harness to try and determine if it could be done at all. I have practised muscleups in a swimming pool, so the buoyancy is my assistance, if you had a swimming pool and gradually lowered the water level you could progress towards it. You could also stand on a weighing scale and attempt to do it and see how much weight is still acting on the scale -I have done this for OAC's

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Quick Start Test Smith

Yeah, I'm not sure if that's physically possible... a cross with 2 fingers? I don't know...

Edit:

Woah... what happened to Alex's post?

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Alessandro Mainente

i cancelled it when i'm editing for the errors damn...i write again

the lever where you put the force (suppose that the bar is 5 cm diameter) you put the strength only on the second half...so 0.025 m.....wich is about 40 times less than the lever of the gravity of the guy in the photo.

now suppose the guy weigth 80 kg he has a 800newton force on 1 meter of lever against 0.025 meter of lever....

i have to balance 800newton meter with a lever wich is 40 times smaller...

about 32000 newton...and 3260 kg....so this is an approssimative system...because if you consider the muscels involved you have to focuse on different insertion of muscles and so on different body levers...

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Blairbob

Cisco isn't really well known for communicating online but perhaps I can ask some of my friends who know him personally in the Bay Area to try (they used to work and train at the gym he was at).

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Alessandro Mainente

ok blairbob...so i use a simple approach but the laws that makes this world possible can't be overcomed i think..

so thinking only on a system of vectors, force, and angle of application of the force this is not for me a skill wich can be done...

it's not a compicated system from my point of view, from one side the weigth of a man at 90° with the floor (so talking about weigth is not important where the weigth is concentrated)...and a 90° degrees arm of lever...this can generate a rotational momentum with a 800 newton torque that force the body to rotate under the bar to compensate the rotational force...the only way to compensate it is putting a equal and opposite force on another par of the system wich is opposing to the torque...

this part is on the grip section expecially in the second half of the bar...the same force has to be applied but with an enormous difference between lever distance so this makes the numbers bigger and bigger..

thinking on this way is simply, ok that's is correct...but also the force you have to generate must be divided on the muscluar components of the body and this thing is a little bit difficult...

so i consider more situations...you know that the isometrich contraction is stronger than the concetrich so if he can holds the position he can reach the position....but how many weigth he has to push down?

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Kyle Devlin

I kinda see what Alex is doing, its cool info but doesn't really help unless the same is done for other static positions. That would make it possible to actually get an exact number on how hard this position is. Also, in the picture, it seems as though he has a slight pike in his hips and bent knees. Wouldn't that relieve tons of twisting force on his grip? Since it would compensate for balance. And his arms maybe not fully locked.

Still looks crazy hard. What does this guy do?

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Alessandro Mainente

my count is simply....my father helps me...he see only the photo and take some deduction from it witout knowing the real weigth and heigth and length of the guy's arms....by the way..i did the operation with the correct features and i got about 16000 newton...about 1500 kg of torque force must be generated..

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Johann Wimmer

...legs are not shown -> CTI is still not possible.

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C-Blu

...legs are not shown -> CTI is still not possible.

CTI 90 degrees not possible, but this is one of the best attempts yet. And I am pretty much sure, that it is not fake. You can watch the whole video to see that there are no ways he could hold on to something.

I guess, the grip strength required to hold a CTI skyrockets as it becames more parallel to the ground.

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Johann Wimmer

...You can watch the whole video to see that there are no ways he could hold on to something.

The camera doesn't show much beneath his hips, only after he releases we get a short glimpse on his thighs - he could very well be supported by the poles or something else.

If I were able to perform such an amazing feat, I would make it damn sure that my whole body is captured - so that nobody would doubt this accomplishment! :)

And because of the lack of such incontrovertible evidence, I will continue to call the CTI an impossible move.

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rubadub

If I were able to perform such an amazing feat, I would make it damn sure that my whole body is captured - so that nobody would doubt this accomplishment! :)

+1 if you look at it again the bar is very thick, and his thumbs do not appear to be gripping anything, it looks like his hands are flat over the top. Perhaps they are gripping like this but I would think this position would make it even more difficult.

As he drops down his leg seems to kick backwards, like his foot was on the pole. This could be that sort of bicycle movement many of these guys seem to do, but I do think his leg was on the pole.

It would be a good one for mythbusters. I wonder if there is a simple way to mimic it, like have a dummy of Jaspers weight & size and have clamp devices for hands. If the clamping required is twice that of the strongest guys who can close the "captain of crush" grippers it might be safe to say its impossible. This might not be the correct way to estimate though.

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Coach Sommer

Sorry to continue to pop your bubble, my friends. But the CTI has been, is and will continue to be impossible.

Now interestingly there are many other GST elements which are possible; the vast majority of which most of you have not yet mastered. So perhaps your time could be more productively spent addressing those. Or as I am fond of telling my own athletes ... quit yapping and get back to work. :excl:

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

  • Upvote 12

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alec_ar

I understand and respect the 'quit yapping and train' attitude coach! And I think too much time and talk does tend to be focused on moves like this. However I was wondering:

-there are two different photos of the supposed CTI

One is where you can't see Jasper's feet and he is literally 90 degrees. In my opinion this is impossible.

The other, probably taken a few seconds later, shows his head about level with his hands and his body located more beneath his hands. I've heard this photo described as a 'collapsed Victorian' position and maybe I'm ignorant but I do believe that one possible...thoughts? The photos are attached.

post-3108-0-16647400-1354129068_thumb.jp

post-3108-0-67709000-1354129082_thumb.jp

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Joshua Slocum

The first photo looks more like a bad front-lever than the CTI. It certainly looks possible. His hips are pretty close to the vertical plane of the bar. The closer your center of mass, the less torque your grip and wrist extensors have to handle.

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alec_ar

Haha, personally I wouldn't use the term 'bad front lever' when describing that photo :P I'm no anatomical brainiac but I think that position (if we assume it's possible) would still require a great deal more force production and shoulder adductor, as well as grip, strength than a front lever. Could be wrong though obviously. I tend to be wrong when analyzing stills :) especially really old ones.

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Joshua Slocum

Haha, personally I wouldn't use the term 'bad front lever' when describing that photo :P I'm no anatomical brainiac but I think that position (if we assume it's possible) would still require a great deal more force production and shoulder adductor, as well as grip, strength than a front lever. Could be wrong though obviously. I tend to be wrong when analyzing stills :) especially really old ones.

Physically speaking, the torque the shoulder has to produce is significantly less, because the weight of your body is closer to the shoulder along the orthogonal axis. The real issue there is grip strength and wrist-extensors.

I tried Jasper's 'bad front lever' skill today after warming up. I used the parallel bars, which are ovoid, and thus make the grip slightly easier to hold. I pulled up until my eyes were just above the bar and then began pushing back while bringing my legs up and trying to keep my head level with the bar. I got my elbows extended to about 100 degrees before my wrist extensors gave out. So performing this skill would require roughly double my wrist extensor strength to bodyweight ratio. Given that I don't train maximal wrist extensor strength I think this skill is probably possible. It might be even easier if you could find a way to overgrip so that the wrist was maximally flexed.

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alec_ar

I'll take your word for it! Clearly you know more than I in this area. And good job with your parallel bar attempt! i too have occasionally fooled around with the CTI in my ring trainers.

Would you mind explaining a little more thoroughly to those of us less inclined to physics why the 'bad front lever' would require significantly less torque at the shoulder? I'm not disagreeing, my initial reaction is that his static hold would require more strength in either the shoulders or lats, teres major etc...

As a side note, Benincasa had enormously strong front levers, and considered his CTI much harder (hence the name). He must have been referring primarily to the wrist, forearm and grip conditioning required.

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