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Nic Scheelings

Straddle Maltese?

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Nic Scheelings

Hi all

I'm just wondering if a straddled maltese is used much as a progression for an actual maltese. I've been playing around with lowering from a straddle planche on rings to a straddle maltese type thing. I'm not really sure if this is a useful progression towards a proper maltese.

Cheers

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Marlon

I've been curious about straddle maltese's for a long time myself. I Never thought to start a thread on this site about it for some reason though. I've been primarily interested to know if straddling in a maltese actually makes the position any easier to hold since it doesnt actually increase leverage, it just changes the arm's angle with the torso. That and, if a straddle maltese is easier than one held with a straight body, why isn't it in the code of points like a straddle planche?

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Nic Scheelings

Yeah I know if maltese is a D then why isn't straddle maltes a C? I'm pretty sure it is easier to hold a straddle maltese, feels easier neway.

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Blairbob

Common drill, it's in gregor's log.

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Razz

It's not there cause a straddle maltese is ugly :P Good drill though, and straddle maltese is easier because your arms get closer to your body.

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Nic Scheelings
It's not there cause a straddle maltese is ugly

Really? I hink it looks kinda cool. But yeah ur right it's easier.

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Razz

Cool yeah, but not so artistic imo. Straddle PL still has a nice look to it.

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Gregor

It's easier. Although I never used it before I did done first maltese. It could be progression to maltese (good one) but not neccessery one it's same for planche.

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Nic Scheelings

Hey guys,

Here's a vid of me doing the straddle planche lower to maltese, thought u might like it.

_tC-XMN3acs

Edit* At first I was thinking what the hell is triangle talking bout is this a comment on how pale i am? But then I realized there might be a problem with the embedding, so here's the full link neway

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Neal Winkler

Demus, I think you were doing gymnastics in a blizzard. :P

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Joshua Naterman
I've been curious about straddle maltese's for a long time myself. I Never thought to start a thread on this site about it for some reason though. I've been primarily interested to know if straddling in a maltese actually makes the position any easier to hold since it doesnt actually increase leverage, it just changes the arm's angle with the torso. That and, if a straddle maltese is easier than one held with a straight body, why isn't it in the code of points like a straddle planche?

Straddling does increase leverage. As legs spread apart, the center of mass moves towards the shoulder. This is like choking up on a slegdehammer: the closer the point of force application (shoulders in PL and ML) is to the center of mass the less force has to be exerted. Because of this, the wider you can straddle the easier you can make the position!

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Marlon

I cant say i agree with you, slizz, when it comes to increased leverage being the reason why a straddle maltese is easier than a layed out one. In a planche the more extended your body is the more acute the angle between your shoulder and your arm becomes, and as a result less and less of the weight is supported by your bone structure (as most of it is when holding a plank or a support position with your arms perpendicular to the ground). The decrease in leverage isn't really happening in the same way it does when you choke up on a sledge hammer, its happening in the same way that it becomes more difficult to hold a sedge hammer when you lever it down so that it is horizontal to the ground rather than perpendicular. That is to say; the length of the lever doesn't change, only its angle in relation to its pivot point.

But in a maltese it doesn't work like that. Your arms are in the same plane as your body and perfectly horizontal in relation to the floor regardless of where your center of gravity is. Straddling doesn't decrease the length of the lever like when you choke up on a sledge, and it doesn't bring your arms any closer to being perpendicular to the floor so that your body's weight can be supported by your bone structure rather than muscular strength. In terms of the leverage involved, I can't see how straddling in a maltese changes things any more than straddling in an iron cross would.

If Demus, Razz, and Gregor say that a straddle maltese is easier than a laid out one, I believe them. But I don't see how it can have anything to do with leverage. I've certainly never done one, but the only thing that makes sense to me is that having your arms slightly wider as a result of bringing your center of gravity closer to your shoulders due to straddling, allows for more efficient muscle recruitment or something

If I'm wrong about any of this I really would like to have it explained better to me, I like physics a lot and I love thinking about how the body works in terms of gymnastics related movement.

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Animalonfire

Bearing in mind that: torque = force(weight) X Horizontal displacement from pivot/fulcrum(same thing)

I think you're neglecting that there are two torques acting in a planche As you say, force is multiplied by the distance from the wrists (fulcrum) to directly below the shoulders where the force acts from, and the other from the shoulder (pivot) to the body centre of gravity where the force acts from.

The distance from the floor directly below the shoulders to the wrists only changes when transitioning from straddle to full lay in order to keep the moving C of G above the wrists. I think I'd be right in saying that this is an equal and opposite reaction(one of newtons sayings)

Anyway, the important thing is that in a Maltese when the legs straddle, the C of G (where the force acts from) is moved closer to the shoulders (the pivot). When we plug this into the equation, torque gets smaller.

My gymnastics coach describes the maltese as an iron cross and a planche at the same time. The torque difference does not affect the cross(wide arms)part of the maltese, while it significantly alters the degree of difficulty of the planche part.

I hope that was a good explanation, if not either slizzardman will do it better or I'll try again with pictures :wink:

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Joshua Naterman

I think that was pretty good, animal!

Any time CoG/CoM moves, forces will change.

Marlon: what you are saying is basically claiming that the length from toes to shoulders, as viewed from the side during a planche or maltese, is the exact same when straddled and when in full lay. Basic observation such as lying on your back and measuring distance between your shoulders and your feet when in full lay and when straddled will show you that this does, in fact change dramatically. Alternatively, you can use geometry with triangles to figure this out. Either way, the lever that is your entire body changes in length. As this happens, your center of gravity/center of mass moves due to the spacial redistribution of your total mass within that horizontal plane.

Example: scissors. Measure from handles to tips. This is easy, just put the handles on the edge of a table. Mark where the tips are with a napkin or something. Now, keeping the handles at the edge of the table, start opening the scissors. As they open, they will not reach as far across the table. They are getting shorter within that plane. This is very easy to see. That's pretty much it, honestly. That is exactly what happens to our bodies. If you take the rivet that joins the scissors and call that the center of mass, just for ease of measurement, you will find that as you open the scissors the center of mass (rivet) moves towards the edge of the table.

In a planche/maltese/front lever/back lever, this is exactly what is happening to your center of mass as you straddle. Edge of the table represents your shoulders, rivet represents your CoM, and the blades of the scissors represent your legs. The wider your straddle, the closer your CoM is to your shoulders. When supporting the body, the point of support contact(hands when on the rings) must be directly underneath the CoM. If they are not, you lose your balance and fall. We can not fight physics on a frictionless surface. On a solid immovable object you can use grip strength to some extent, but not on the rings. That's why it's so much more difficult to catch yourself on the rings than it is on PB.

It is true that shoulder angle changes in both planches and malteses (and the levers as well, if you pay close attention) as you straddle because you must move your hands so that the line between them is underneath the CoM as it moves due to weight redistribution! However, the arm is a set length. You will be changing the recruitment characteristics and total required applied force as this shoulder angle changes, but that happens BECAUSE of the movement of the CoM. Even though the arms will have to go slightly wider in a straddle maltese, the total force production is lower. The arms did not get longer, only the shoulder angle changed. This WILL cause changes in muscle recruitment patterns and individual contribution of the involved muscles to total force production, but it does not change the fact that a lower applied force is necessary to hold the straddle position as opposed to full lay. This applies to all horizontal statics (FL BL PL ML, and technically Manna as well, though there are more angles involved on that last one).

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Marlon

Well dang, i have to concede that you guys are right. I read through slizzardman and animals posts and still couldn't really make sense of it, so i had a more physics inclined friend than myself exlplain what you guys were saying to me. For some reason i've always looked at the arms as the only levers that were really involved in the difficulty gymnastics positions, and viewed the rest of the body and its position simply as something that altered what orientation the arms must be in to maintain balance. I was never really able to look at the body itself as a lever which gets more difficult to support as its length increases and center of gravity changes. You learn new things every day, and im glad to have a better understanding of the skills that im working towards

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Alessandro Mainente

can be a good exercise try to peform the maltese bent arms? does it required the same biceps tendons conditioning as the maltese straigth arms?

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Razz

No, bent arms maltese is not the same at all and will never give you the bicep conditioning for a maltese.

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Svend

Reading this I'll have to ask, how about the tuck, advanced tuck, or one-leg tucked variations? I would think think that an advanced tuck maltese is not possible since one would not be able to keep arms horizontal to the ground because the center of gravity would have to be in front of the rings without the counterbalancing of the legs? Correct?

I'm not near strong enough to try this out, but it'd be pretty fun to see advanced tuck malteses and victorians 8)

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Razz

Straddle might be ok, but tuck and adv tuck would move the position of the arms so much that you're no longer getting stronger in the angle that you need in a maltese position.

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Svend

That makes sense..

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