The Achilles heel of paleo dieting

[Neal Winkler]

If the paleo philosophy is true, why do so many studies show that moderate alcohol consumption is beneficial?

[Razz]

Anti oxidants, can't be the actual alcohol but more likely the substance it's in. Most people with a moderate consumption of alcohol most likely are wine drinkers. And beers. Show me a study where actual alcohol only is tested and proven beneficial and I'll be impressed.

[Nicholas Sortino]

Maybe moderate drinking relaxes people? I think it is pretty well known that stress can have some serious negative effects on the body.

Regardless, I hardly believe a moderate alcohol intake being somewhat beneficial could be considered the Achilles heel of the paleo theory.

[Razz]

Yeah I forgot the relaxation, that is another possible theory! Many people reeeeeeally chill out with a cold beer after work or something like that..

[Aaron Griffin]

If the paleo philosophy is true, why do so many studies show that moderate alcohol consumption is beneficial?

First thing's first - it's likely we ate fermented fruits that had fallen from a tree. Even wild moose do this.

Secondly, alcohol combats some of the strains of "modern living" - carcinogens, stress, etc

[Razz]

First thing's first - it's likely we ate fermented fruits that had fallen from a tree. Even wild moose do this.

Funny I thought of this too, but alcohol is still poison, why would poison be beneficial?

[Nicholas Sortino]

First thing's first - it's likely we ate fermented fruits that had fallen from a tree. Even wild moose do this.

Funny I thought of this too, but alcohol is still poison, why would poison be beneficial?

Toxicity is in the dose.

[Razz]

Yeah I know that is true, just can't imagine it being beneficial though. But who knows, maybe it's like old school vaccines just injecting a minor bit of the actual disease to keep you protected.. but then alcohol in small amounts would protect from.....alcohol in big amounts, I don't see that being really beneficial

[Nicholas Sortino]

Well, I don't really think that theory of yours hold much water Razz...

But it may be more like trace vitamins and minerals. Everyone knows things like Vit. A, Iron and magnesium are important parts of your diet, but you can easily overdose on any of those and make yourself sick. I know magnesium in particular is easy because it is loaded into so many supplements. It'll definitely give you the runs if you take to much, I know this from experience.

Now that is not to say that alcohol is an essential part of the diet like those are... but possibly in small amounts the alcohol itself has no ill effects, but it carries with it (from relaxation, antioxidants, whatever) some minor benefits.

[Edward Smith]

Triangle,

Care to provide some of those studies?

thanks,

Ed

[Guest]

I don't think either Loren Cordain or Robb Wolf (whom I consider to be the Paleo Diet Gurus) have explicitly stated that all booze is the devil's work - I can't look anything up right now because I'm at work but I'm pretty sure they both include wine in their meal plans (red wine is a good source of resveratrol). So I'm not sure about the Achilles heel there.

[ChenZhen]

Anti oxidants, can't be the actual alcohol but more likely the substance it's in. Most people with a moderate consumption of alcohol most likely are wine drinkers. And beers. Show me a study where actual alcohol only is tested and proven beneficial and I'll be impressed.

Well, check out Stephans post at whole health source:

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2 ... cular.html

:wink:

[Razz]

Interesting

[Jay Guindon]

The only studies I've seen are epidemiological studies, never a controlled trial. If you have one that would be great.

Also, just because it's not "truly" paleo, doesn't mean it can't be beneficial. Coconut oil, not paleo, beneficial. I think you sometimes think we're all crazy paleo adherents just for the sake of it. Paleo is a good starting point to examine nutrition within an overall framework, not a dogma or religion. Even some otherwise paleo foods are not necessarily good for us, ie most people do better without nuts/seeds/nightshades, even though they would be considered paleo by most.

[Neal Winkler]

Anti oxidants, can't be the actual alcohol but more likely the substance it's in. Most people with a moderate consumption of alcohol most likely are wine drinkers. And beers. Show me a study where actual alcohol only is tested and proven beneficial and I'll be impressed.

I thought I remember seeing a study like that, but I often catch my memory being faulty. I'll see of I can find the one I'm thinking of.

Triangle,

Care to provide some of those studies?

thanks,

Ed

Ed, there a TON of them. Super dooper easy to find on pubmed. Probably the easiest studies there are to find.

[Neal Winkler]

The only studies I've seen are epidemiological studies, never a controlled trial. If you have one that would be great.

Also, just because it's not "truly" paleo, doesn't mean it can't be beneficial. Coconut oil, not paleo, beneficial. I think you sometimes think we're all crazy paleo adherents just for the sake of it. Paleo is a good starting point to examine nutrition within an overall framework, not a dogma or religion. Even some otherwise paleo foods are not necessarily good for us, ie most people do better without nuts/seeds/nightshades, even though they would be considered paleo by most.

If you check "randomized controlled trials" in the limits of pubmed you still get tons of studies showing a benefit to alcohol consumption.

Also, if some paleo foods and not beneficial, and some non-paleo foods are ok, then what is a paleo diet?

[Ryan Libke]

I am hopeful that in the future someone may be better able to articulate exactly how a moderate intake of alcoholic beverages can benefit a person's health, but I am not aware of any definitive authority. There does seem to be a good deal of evidence to suggest that moderate drinking is not unhealthy, and may indeed be health promoting. I have not been convinced that abstaining from alcohol is necessary to promote one's health, even though I have been convinced that a paleo diet is very healthy, and have adopted it in most part. Chiefly, I avoid grains and legumes, sugar, etc, and it has measurably helped my health.

I do not think that it necessarily follows that because some non-paleo foods are not unhealthy that the paleo diet is not healthy. Rather, by starting with foods that were for the most part available and eaten before the agricultural revolution, we can increase the likelihood that the food will be health promoting, as opposed to creating problems by upseting the ratio of fatty acids, adding to hyperinsulism, or increasing chronic, systematic, and inappropriate inflammation. However, when looking at food choices beyond the foundation of quality meat and fish, ample vegetables, and fruits, I usually weigh the information regarding the benefits and drawbacks of a given food, and am especially persuaded by the food choices of other generally healthy populations besides so-called paleolithic peoples.

As Mr. Guindon notes, there comes a point that the paleo approach can be applied to an absurd degree, as certain edible things available to paleolithic populations could be unhealthy or poisonous. Also, a so called paleo food could be unhealthy if eaten in isolation and to excess.

[Jay Guindon]

The only studies I've seen are epidemiological studies, never a controlled trial. If you have one that would be great.

Also, just because it's not "truly" paleo, doesn't mean it can't be beneficial. Coconut oil, not paleo, beneficial. I think you sometimes think we're all crazy paleo adherents just for the sake of it. Paleo is a good starting point to examine nutrition within an overall framework, not a dogma or religion. Even some otherwise paleo foods are not necessarily good for us, ie most people do better without nuts/seeds/nightshades, even though they would be considered paleo by most.

If you check "randomized controlled trials" in the limits of pubmed you still get tons of studies showing a benefit to alcohol consumption.

Also, if some paleo foods and not beneficial, and some non-paleo foods are ok, then what is a paleo diet?

I would say that's a hard one to answer because different people have different interpretations, just like different people interpret the Okinawan diet slightly differently and the mediterranean diet slightly differently. Bottom line is this...every food consumed on a regualr basis needs to be researched to make an informed decision that is at the least benign and at best beneficial, regardless of what popular diet is promoting it at the time. The other way that is really good to determine this is to try different diets and get blood work for major disease risk factors and see which ones improve it the most. For me the paleo diet with a few tweaks works really well, maybe it's not the paleo diet exactly, it is my interpretation of a diet that closely resembles the commonly accepted paleo diet. This is why I have a hard time getting into diet wars, because people always seem to have slightly different interpretations of their diet.

[AlexX]

There is a bunch of them (studies that is). But like Razz said most moderate consumers drink wine that has long been linked with health benefits in moderate levels. However you know what the first thing you learn about in physiology and anatomy during cellular studies? How alcohol pretty much just bypasses all of the cells defenses that are there explicitly for keeping crap out and just goes to town. Not sure about you but I am a bit skeptical as to thinking that something that dissolves our cell's membranes is really that beneficial to us. The antioxidants are beneficial of course, the alcohol not so much.

There are inconsistencies in the Paleo diet and people always bend studies to support their own theories but this just isn't one of them.

[Razz]

I thought this could be due to the drinkers' place in society. People who do moderate drinking are likely higher class society and thus live a 'better' life besides the drinking and could therefore be healthier...just a thought? could be so many reasons..

[Adam Rezner]

I agree with Wolf above. Just because moderate alcohol consumption has been shown to be beneficial does not mean a paleo-type diet isn't ideal. The point is not to mimic our ancestors, the point is to use a paleolithic-type diet as a starting point, and add any beneficial neolithic and modern foods to our liking. Everyone's got a different body and different preferences, so it follows that everyone's "paleo" diet likely will be a little different, i.e. dairy and alcohol consumption, nightshades, potatoes, etc.

As far as why it is beneficial, there is some speculation that it is not the antioxidants but the alcohol itself which is beneficial, which would mean any alcoholic beverage could be beneficial. Of course, some are still better than others, for example wine would probably be better than wheat beer.

Here's a link to the study:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 174615.htm

[Neal Winkler]

Everyone's got a different body and different preferences, so it follows that everyone's "paleo" diet likely will be a little different, i.e. dairy and alcohol consumption, nightshades, potatoes, etc.

If a "paleo" diet can include an neolithic food that isn't disagreeable with an individual then I don't get the point of calling it "paleo." Why not called it my "gargibugundal diet?" That basically makes the term "paleo" meaningless.

[Tarun Suri]

Everyone's got a different body and different preferences, so it follows that everyone's "paleo" diet likely will be a little different, i.e. dairy and alcohol consumption, nightshades, potatoes, etc.

If a "paleo" diet can include an neolithic food that isn't disagreeable with an individual then I don't get the point of calling it "paleo." Why not called it my "gargibugundal diet?" That basically makes the term "paleo" meaningless.

By all means call it "gargibugundal diet". You'll need to label it somehow to deliver the message effectively to the market. I think "paleo" introduces the concept well enough.

[Neal Winkler]

Everyone's got a different body and different preferences, so it follows that everyone's "paleo" diet likely will be a little different, i.e. dairy and alcohol consumption, nightshades, potatoes, etc.

If a "paleo" diet can include an neolithic food that isn't disagreeable with an individual then I don't get the point of calling it "paleo." Why not called it my "gargibugundal diet?" That basically makes the term "paleo" meaningless.

By all means call it "gargibugundal diet". You'll need to label it somehow to deliver the message effectively to the market. I think "paleo" introduces the concept well enough.

Seems like your just trying to keep the paleo diet unfalsifiable. How could someone prove that a paleo diet is not necessary when any diet composition can be "paleo?" There's nothing to disprove since the definition is slippery.

[pogo69]

Seems like your just trying to keep the paleo diet unfalsifiable. How could someone prove that a paleo diet is not necessary when any diet composition can be "paleo?" There's nothing to disprove since the definition is slippery.

Agreed. If your diet contains alcohol, it is NOT paleo. If your diet contains anything that was not eaten by our paleolithic ancestors, it is NOT paleo; by definition.

I don't doubt that there are non-paleo foods that are perfectly healthy, perhaps even beneficial; but that doesn't mean that they're necessary for an optimally healthy diet. For all the naysayers, I've never seen anyone successfully debate that eating only meat, fruit, vegetables, nuts and seeds is in anyway bad for you.

With respect to the original comment; I wonder if any of the studies that show moderate alcohol consumption to be beneficial were done with study participants who were already on a "balanced" long-term paleo diet? I say balanced, because the reality of the paleo diet, is that (by the admittance of paleo experts such as Loren Cordain) modern food sources lack the nutrient availability of those accessible to paleo man; thus the possible prescription for additional fish oil etc (or a line in salmon and grass fed meat if you can afford it!!).