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Kiyoshi

100m and vertical jump

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Kiyoshi

Anyone know the best way to increase speed and agility for 100m? vertical jump?

Gymnast or basketball player, who has a higher vertical?

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Philip Chubb

Well for vertical jump, you should try finding out if you would be better off gaining more strength or power. A good test is a regular vertical jump test with two kinds of trials. One you squat down and wait three to five seconds. Then, try to explode up and see how high you get. That helps measure the strength aspect. The other is to do more of a quick bounce or a slight drop off something and then try to explosively jump as high as you can. That is more the measure of plyometric power. For example, for me, I used the first version and only got about a foot. The second gave me about a foot and three fourths. I know now that I need to strengthen more to achieve a higher vertical.

I think basketball players do. Gymnast don't jump much except on standing skills. They rebound. Rebounding is basically tightening up and punching into the ground with your feet so the force pushes you back up. Just a quick caution, don't rebound on hard surfaces. It is more for spring floors. I learned this from very painful experience. I hope this helps!

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Blairbob

On the 100m sprint, could go either way. Many basketball players have some outstanding vertical jumps. However, they tend to also be nearly a foot or more taller. This aids them in the use of longer tendons. And let's just face it, some of them are freaks.

Unfortunately, I don't think gymnasts have been tested in either capacity within nearly 40 years really. Nothing definitive out there.

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Chris Hansen

I actually read a number of studies looking at vertical jump. PubMed and inter-library loan are great resources.

What came up consistently is that almost anything will improve your vertical jump to some degree. People who combined some form of strength training with some form of jumping always improved more than people who did only one or the other. Practicing only jump squats led to bigger increases than only heavy squats. In one study that involved volleyball players, strength training helped but adding plyometrics didn't make a difference. They decided that, if you're already jumping five days/week than strength training can help but plyometrics won't give you any additional benefit.

So, the short answer is to make your legs stronger and practice jumping.

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Nicholas Sortino

If you want to increase your 100m, I suggest looking into track. Maybe find a forum where that is the primary focus and see what kinda routines people have there. I am gonna go out on a limb and guess a lot of sprinting, a lot of sprint starts, and a lot of reaction time drills.

If you really want to improve your vertical, looking into Olympic Weightlifting would be a worthwhile endeavor. I would not venture into haphazardly, but find someone who can legitimately coach you on how to do it correctly; otherwise I guarantee you will just end up muscling the bar and getting much less out of it. It will build a lot of speed and power through the ground. All three moves are very effective at this.

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Aushion Chatman

If you really want to sprint you need to get with a coach to teach you how it's done technique wise...just running won't teach you the proper mechanics, as natural as running is. If you just want general fitness that is probably not necessary.

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Joshua Naterman

Vertical Jumping: Vertical Jump Bible

Sprinting: http://www.wannagetfast.com is a great resource. Also google Jay Schroeder and Ultrafit Evosport.

The short answer, as always, is increase the stability of each joint involved, increase the strength of prime movers, and increase the speed with which that strength can be applied. This involves full and partial ROM strength work, plyometrics, and specific joint prehab and conditioning, as well as actual practice of the desired activity.

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Joshua Naterman

Speed is definitely king.

Also, for those of you who don't realize it, every slam dunk is a rebound. The body is already in motion, and the kinetic energy is being absorbed and redirected utilizing the stretch reflex. There is, physiologically speaking, very little difference between the rebounding of a gymnast and the rebounding of a basketball player. Technically speaking there is a lot of difference, but they both use the stretch reflex, which is what the argument appears to be around. You are nuts if you think gymnasts can't perform running jumps. From a dead start, their ability would depend on how they are trained. Coach's guys can jump.

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Kiyoshi

Is twice a week, enough for training my legs for increased vertical and 100m sprint?

I will do the cardio runs on both of those days, as well as jumping squats, jumping lunges, calf raises, depth jump, OLS, NLC and a few other things. Ive heard those increase vertical the most, and I assume 100m sprint comes from calf raises as well as just sprinting.

let me know if that sounds good :)

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Tarun Suri

Twice a week sounds good if your push your strength training hard those days.

But eliminate the cardio runs. Keep them short burst and very explosive. Things like jumping lunges should be done with weight, try 20lbs. Jumping squats, make sure not to use any rebound, stay 3 seconds at the bottom of the squat before jumping. 100m sprints definately won't come from doing calf raises.

Unfortunately, new studies have found that verticle jumps are not a strong predictor of 100m sprints. research finds that in sprinting vertical impact forces are capped at a certain percentage and surpassing it in vertial jump doesnt not affect sprints as much as horizontal forces. Look into hip thrusts for sprints.

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Kiyoshi
Twice a week sounds good if your push your strength training hard those days.

But eliminate the cardio runs. Keep them short burst and very explosive. Things like jumping lunges should be done with weight, try 20lbs. Jumping squats, make sure not to use any rebound, stay 3 seconds at the bottom of the squat before jumping. 100m sprints definately won't come from doing calf raises.

Unfortunately, new studies have found that verticle jumps are not a strong predictor of 100m sprints. research finds that in sprinting vertical impact forces are capped at a certain percentage and surpassing it in vertial jump doesnt not affect sprints as much as horizontal forces. Look into hip thrusts for sprints.

So maybe replace a cardio run with an all out sprint for 60m? and do that maybe twice a session?

What about weighted runs?

Thanks for the info :)

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Joshua Naterman

That is an AWESOME site! Holy crap! Thank you!

One thing for everyone here who is interested in learning how to improve their explosiveness to know is that when working explosive exercise you should never be using more than 60% of your 1RM, especially when looking at bench press and squat. More weight than this causes the velocity to slow down, and as Jeff has said that will completely work AGAINST the gains you are looking for. You need SPEED, SPEEEEEEEEED! So if you're going to look into explosive squats, start off with your bodyweight and see how fast you can move down and back up using the stretch reflex. Then slowly add weight either through BB squat or a weight vest, until you notice the slightest slowdown. Now go back and use the heaviest weight that you are SURE did not cause slowdown. This may not be much weight, and that's ok. Vertical jumping is not a weighted exercise, so don't try and turn it into one. Then, during your explosive workouts, stop doing the jump squats THE MOMENT you realize you aren't moving quite as fast as your previous rep. You are training speed, and speed alone. If you have anything else in that training session besides maximum speed you will compromise your results. You can do this the same day as other training, but make sure the sessions are separated by at least 4 hours in each direction.

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AlexX

Most people with high verticals and fast 100 meter dashes have a few things in common: they train speed/jumping 3-4 times per week. They all squat at least double bodyweight. Sprinting is a very technical thing if you are serious about getting good, a good coach is a must, raw power alone is not enough. As an example Joe Defranco (college football trainer) can decrease a player's 40 yard dash by .3 second (for those who don't know that's like adding 3 inches to your vertical in one session) in one session and most of these guys aren't anywhere near beginners. He accomplishes this simply by working on technique.

In short you need 1.Minimum a double bodyweight squat, not sure what the equivalent on the single leg squat would be as I am in the process of finding this out. 2. Speed/sprint work at the minimum 2 times per week. 3. For sprinting you need a good sprinting coach.

Finally remember what I listed are the minimums. Sprinters like Ben Johnson could squat over 400 lbs for reps of 10 with ease. Never seen a person that greatly increased his standing vertical without lifting significant amounts of weight in the squat.

http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/ is great for this type of information so is http://www.defrancostraining.com/index.php both of these coaches on regular bases have greatly improved peoples verticals and sprinting.

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Joshua Naterman

Yes. I have to second what AlexX has said here.

Technique is incredibly important. I figured out something simple I was doing wrong and added at least 2 inches to my vert immediately. Know what it was? I wasn't intentionally pushing down as hard as I could with the ball of my foot during takeoff. I realized this after my second set of height jumps and all of a sudden the mark I was touching with my fingertips became the mark I was touching with the first finger joint. Not the knuckle, but the one right after that. I was like WOW... that is amazing. I need to learn more about jump technique. Just that little thing, the powerful toe flick towards the ground, added at least 2 inches. I have since learned how important blocking is for single foot jumping, and that will add several inches to my running vertical, which is exactly the same as my standing vert. Apparently this means I have some pretty good untapped running vertical jump potential, just like we all do.

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Coach Sommer
In short you need 1.Minimum a double bodyweight squat,

This is inaccurate and is simply nothing more than conventional track and field advice being incorrectly propagated as a universal truth. The reality is that there are thousands and thousands of young gymnasts in the US who are performing and benefiting from plyometric exercises who have never performed a weighted squat in their life; let alone a double bodyweight squat.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

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AlexX

I apologize if my comment sounded like you couldn't make gains without squatting. This was not my intention. The "minimum double bodyweight squat" was meant as that if your goal is the highest possible sprint or jump performance, you do need to squat. That doesn't mean that increases can't be had with plyometric exercises alone as multiple studies by the NSCA have already shown that plyometrics alone can, even to a great degree, increase sprinting and jumping. However, the additional benefits of increasing maximum leg strength are also well documented. Doing both the plyometric and maximum strength work does yields the greatest gains.

My point with the double bw squat was to be taken as a long term goal. Not an immediate one before you begin plyometric and sprinting work. Practicing jumping and sprinting is obviously supreme to strength training since that it what you are trying to get better at.

If your main goal or sport is not jumping or sprinting, plyometrics alone can indeed do the job.

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Joshua Naterman

The reality is that it is far more important that you be able to move quickly when you are squatting. If it takes you 6 seconds to squat 2x BW then that's a lift that isn't going to help you very much in terms of power production because you are moving too slowly. That trains the wrong recruitment patterns. You could get the exact same applied force (and possibly much higher) by using a somewhat lighter weight that allows for a significantly faster repetition speed, and at the same time you would not be inhibiting contraction speed. You would actually be fine-tuning rate coding to the specified action.

Speed will always be king when it comes to athletic expression. Strength matters, but only to the extent that it does not interfere with speed. Having said that, if you were able to squat 2x BW in like <2 seconds or something that would be pretty nuts and would probably have a massive positive effect on one's lower body power expression, but that really is something of a separate animal from rebound drills, because they are largely involuntary in nature. This is also why there is a large separation between single leg jumping and double leg jumping, and between running jumps and standing jumps. The way you improve running jumps and especially running single leg jumps is not the same way you improve standing jumps, especially double leg standing jumps. For a standstill, non-rebound jump squatting ability will have a pretty direct impact on the jump. For rebound jumps it is not so important.

There is also a massive, massive difference between a max box squat and a max deep squat. Many times reported max squats are actually box squats, because this is one of the main exercises that many track athletes use to develop starting strength. A 2x BW box squat is much, much easier to attain and requires far less muscle mass than a 2xBW ATG squat. Even then, this has a lot less to do with a rebounding jump than a standing jump.

As far as gymnastics goes, it seems like vault might be the only event if any that would not be hurt by the muscular development that accompanies absolute maximally developed jumping ability in all areas. I really don't know anything about how leg size ends up affecting most of the events, but it would seem that pretty much every event can be disadvantaged by having more than the minimal required leg mass for a winning performance.

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AlexX

What you are talking about (lifting speed) is an old training system. There have been some people using such systems to build strength like Westside and Chad Waterbury to name a few, so it definitely works. But the benefits of such a system and its applications to sprinting jumping have not been proven to be better over the regular max strength with plyo work system. There have been a few studies that do show that moving the same weight faster increases nervous system fiber recruitment but in all honesty that doesn't mean much. The same thing is accomplished with more weight but at slower speeds. So yes the recruitment is higher when moving faster but I'd have to disagree with you that moving faster during squatting is how power athletes should be lifting.

It's funny you mention single leg versus double leg take off as Kelly Bagget (I could be wrong about the name here, could have been Waterbury) established (not a published study) the reason why it was that some jumped from one leg and others from double was mainly the strength difference. Those who favored double leg jumps had more of a strength reserve and those who favored single were more explosive. The cool part was when an NBA strength coach trained an NBA player who was a single leg jumper and throughout his career, after his strength improved, became a double leg jumper. This was not done intentionally.

I think the main problem with my answers is that they are from a track and field and jumping background. Where jumping and sprinting were the MAIN goals. I was answering the OP under the assumption that he was after maximum performance in 100m and jumping.

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Tarun Suri

I disagree with you Alexx.

Anyone can learn to lift heavy. However, you will find that by reducing weight you will not be able to lift that weight any faster if you do not train to lift quickly. This old training system your talking about is called the rate of force concept. Any competent coach knows of it's benefits and implication. I have seen many coaches including Mark Rippetoe (the man who started my path in fitness) stress the importance of speed work.

Also, I disagree that heavy lighting is king to producing a good sprinter. I do not contest the fact that heavy squats with increase your vertical. However studies show that vertical impact forces are not nearly as important as horizontal impact forces (a training method only recently explored, look up barbell hip thrusts for an introduction). While squating heavy with positively impact your sprint, it will be short lived. Past a certain amount of impact force measured from squatting, sprinters vertical impact forces have a limit that is far lower than you might expect.

Apologies if this seems explained in a bizarre manner. This is the first time I type on my iPhone to post here.

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Joshua Naterman

Alex: I am somewhat on the fence between the two, because as long as you don't spend TOO much time in a heavy lifting phase you should be able to periodize between very heavy lifting that is a bit slower and heavy but not AS heavy lifting that is significantly faster, and the very heavy lifting should have a positive carryover to the faster lifting. The speed still matters because in the end applied force matters more than plates on the bar, and there are interesting percentages of max lifts where a max speed repetition can expose the body to greater forces than a heavier weight, though the exposure is a bit more limited in duration. It is hard to say which is best, because the answer may well be both. We all know that the effort you put into a lift will determine the training effect you get. This is where maximal isometrics can become very important. It is certainly true that one can learn to develop maximal force very quickly and sustain it long enough to complete a maximal lift in far less time than powerlifters generally do. Jay Schroeder bases his entire training scheme on this concept of maximal speed with maximal force, though he uses a machine for much of the actual training of muscular contraction and apparently uses the lifts as a neural learning tool and not a strength development tool. Interesting approach, and one that apparently works. Adam Archuleta benching his max of 520-somethng lbs in 1.18 seconds or something like that is pretty nuts, but it apparently happened. I apologize to everyone, I know I just opened a can of worms. I guess we better grab our tackle boxes and get ready to fish... :lol:

Kelly gets into the difference between single and double leg jumps, but the context you are referring to is a running jump and both of those are primarily reflexive. Of course strength plays into both of these and does enhance the ability, but especially the single leg jump is heavily dependent on the achilles tendon length. Can't change that as far as I am aware. Both single and double leg rebounding jumps are very dependant on the achilles length, but I have yet to run across anything that even suggests that there are athletes that can't at least reach a 40" double leg vert with training.

As far as sprinting goes, there appears to be a very strong correlation with deadlifts as well as squats in speed factors. This may be due to the more "horizontal" nature of the lift considering that the bar is in front of the COG in the top part of the lift as opposed to staying directly above it, thus forcing the lifter to initiate a bit of a hip thrust at the end. The barbell hip thrusts do lead to some interesting reading.

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AlexX
I disagree with you Alexx.

Anyone can learn to lift heavy. However, you will find that by reducing weight you will not be able to lift that weight any faster if you do not train to lift quickly. This old training system your talking about is called the rate of force concept. Any competent coach knows of it's benefits and implication. I have seen many coaches including Mark Rippetoe (the man who started my path in fitness) stress the importance of speed work.

Also, I disagree that heavy lighting is king to producing a good sprinter. I do not contest the fact that heavy squats with increase your vertical. However studies show that vertical impact forces are not nearly as important as horizontal impact forces (a training method only recently explored, look up barbell hip thrusts for an introduction). While squating heavy with positively impact your sprint, it will be short lived. Past a certain amount of impact force measured from squatting, sprinters vertical impact forces have a limit that is far lower than you might expect.

Apologies if this seems explained in a bizarre manner. This is the first time I type on my iPhone to post here.

To the first paragraph I think you misunderstood me, I wasn't saying speed work doesn't work, it most definitly does (Westside is probably the best example for it, although many other successful programs exist as well that don't include speed work). But these guys never do any speed work, most of them don't at least. So they benefit from speed work when it is introduced. BTW big fan of Rippetoe myself. That guy has more awesome information in his one book than others have in volumes.

My point was for sprinters and jumper, they already do a ton of speed work extra speed work in the gym isn't going to do much for them. Now remember I am in no way suggesting that heavy work be the base of all work for a jumper or a sprinter that would be ridiculous. Sprinting/jumping work is always first for these athletes and will have the most gains, weight lifting is a supplementary activity for them.

Brett Contrares is a smart guy, the hip thrust is awesome. It is very relevant to sprinters and even jumpers. But if you are referring to his EKG findings as studies, they are not. If you are aware of some studies that show that squats don't increase the potential for sprinting work and others that show that the hip thrust is better I would like to see them as I haven't come across anything like this. However there are multiple studies that do show that squatting is very helpful to sprinters, not just short lived like you mention. One of the most recognized authorities on sprinting, Charlie Francis (this guy was loading sprinter up horizontally long before Brett Contrares came to the strength and conditioning community) even says that sprinters need to train maximum leg strength. His favorite exercise is the squat.

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AlexX
Alex: I am somewhat on the fence between the two, because as long as you don't spend TOO much time in a heavy lifting phase you should be able to periodize between very heavy lifting that is a bit slower and heavy but not AS heavy lifting that is significantly faster, and the very heavy lifting should have a positive carryover to the faster lifting. The speed still matters because in the end applied force matters more than plates on the bar, and there are interesting percentages of max lifts where a max speed repetition can expose the body to greater forces than a heavier weight, though the exposure is a bit more limited in duration. It is hard to say which is best, because the answer may well be both. We all know that the effort you put into a lift will determine the training effect you get. This is where maximal isometrics can become very important. It is certainly true that one can learn to develop maximal force very quickly and sustain it long enough to complete a maximal lift in far less time than powerlifters generally do. Jay Schroeder bases his entire training scheme on this concept of maximal speed with maximal force, though he uses a machine for much of the actual training of muscular contraction and apparently uses the lifts as a neural learning tool and not a strength development tool. Interesting approach, and one that apparently works. Adam Archuleta benching his max of 520-somethng lbs in 1.18 seconds or something like that is pretty nuts, but it apparently happened. I apologize to everyone, I know I just opened a can of worms. I guess we better grab our tackle boxes and get ready to fish... :lol:

Kelly gets into the difference between single and double leg jumps, but the context you are referring to is a running jump and both of those are primarily reflexive. Of course strength plays into both of these and does enhance the ability, but especially the single leg jump is heavily dependent on the achilles tendon length. Can't change that as far as I am aware. Both single and double leg rebounding jumps are very dependant on the achilles length, but I have yet to run across anything that even suggests that there are athletes that can't at least reach a 40" double leg vert with training.

As far as sprinting goes, there appears to be a very strong correlation with deadlifts as well as squats in speed factors. This may be due to the more "horizontal" nature of the lift considering that the bar is in front of the COG in the top part of the lift as opposed to staying directly above it, thus forcing the lifter to initiate a bit of a hip thrust at the end. The barbell hip thrusts do lead to some interesting reading.

Adam Archuleta benched his max in 1.18 :shock: besides being interesting, that is just extremely impressive. Interesting training program too.

I don't disagree with you at all on the heavy and faster lifting for powerlifters and pure strength athletes like strongmen (these guys swear by speed work for their events) although I can't not mention that countless athletes have set world records without it. I am just saying for a group that is already primarily based in speed work sprinters, throwers and jumpers, it might not yield as good results as just concentrating on strength gains especially considering that these guys do speed work 4 to 5 times per week.

This is a routine for a college/professional sprinter - monday upper and sprinting, tuesday lower and sprinting, thursday upper and sprinting, friday lower and sprinting. Most will add sprinting on wednesdays as well. They'll do different lifts on each upper and lower body day and work on a different sprinting aspect on each sprinting day such as starts, flying runs, plyometric jumps, technique and endurance sprinting for 100 and up sprinters. Obviously this isn't my routine but from a strength coach that trains sprinters (olympic sprinters). Defranco's routine isn't too different from the above, for beginners he'll sometimes take away the second lower body lifting day.

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AlexX

As as side note I think our discussion has confused the OP beyond anything useful. Perhaps we should post a collaborated method for increasing 100m and vertical for him?

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Joshua Naterman

This has quite possibly been confusing for the OP! :lol:

Regardless, this has been a good discussion. I think you're right, honestly, once you get to the point where you CAN move extremely fast. I used to be that way and I have shifted heavily to the other side of the scale. I am very strong but have become relatively slow compared to when I was younger because I have spent too much time with slow lifting. The problem there was simply that I wasn't training maximum explosion out of the hole, so to speak. So, I am working on my starting strength and my progressive acceleration, as these are the two areas that I need the most improvement in. That alone will probably add a foot to my vert, even though my squatting strength is nowhere near 2xBW yet. I'm probably at 1.4x BW for a full squat at best, and I have absolutely no clue what my max box squat is. A lot higher, I'm sure. Regardless, I will be getting more out of starting position maximal isometrics and box squats than much of anything else right now.

Here's what I think will help OP the most:

Max speed (EXPLOSIVE!!!) deadlifts, stiff leg (Romanian) dl, and hip thrusts are going to give him the best bang for his buck so to speak in terms of combined sprinting and jumping weight training. Explosive box squats from slightly above parallel will help with vert. These will help with force development. For max strength, full ROM squats and bent leg (regular) DL will be key. There are of course other exercises that could and should be thrown in to keep his body from adjusting to the work, but these are the core elements that will give the best of both worlds. I do not know to what degree training for sprinting power will interfere with training for vert height, since there are slightly different methods for each. I think that jumping technique work and sprinting-oriented plyometric work will be the most effective combination, but that's really more of a guess than fact. I'm basing that on the fact that the lower body component of sprinting trains the lower leg in a very similar fashion to how it performs during a jump, and plyometric work is pretty much all centered around the lower leg adapting to the rebounds. The strength and explosive work is slightly more oriented towards vert, with the exception of the hip thrusts and max DL which are slightly more specific to sprinting.

Choosing whether to focus slightly more on max strength or explosive work will depend entirely on Kiyoshi's performance in the lifts mentioned. Plyometrics should certainly be a part of the training either way but I think that the sprinting plyo's like the single leg bounding drills will give him the most ability in both areas. Stop jumps with two legs will train the double leg plyometric ability so that technique work should take care of most of his needs. Practicing single and double leg jumps for height both standing and running will help make the training adaptations he gets from the other work count towards his vert, and that's why I think that specific vert plyometrics are perhaps not quite as important if he wants to run fast AND jump high. Of course, any training he does right now is going to make him run faster AND jump higher as long as he isn't already near elite status or programming wrong.

What do you think? I realize that I have a slight bias towards the sprinting in this suggested program, so I don't expect complete agreement! :lol:

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AlexX

I can't say that I would disagree with that program especially since sprinting is more technical than jumping in my opinion, therefor sprinting would certainly warrant a bit more work. Since Slizzardman covered the weightlifting exercises (all good choices) I would just like to add how sprinters and jumpers organize their plyo/speed work.

Explosive work is usually done before weightraining or on separate days. Doing them after the weight training will greatly reduce your explosiveness. A sprinter will generally work on three things. These can be done together, but experienced sprinters will split these up over different days to increase the volume for each. They'll add day of separate plyometric work depending on what they are concentrating on at the time and like mentioned above this will depend on what you need more of speed or strength.

Starting sprints - these are done in no more than 10 yard increments. Starting technique is so important that it can mean the difference between first and last place. Quads are the propulsive force during starting.

Flying sprints - These work on your top speed. Usually done by accelerating to top speed and then running at top speed for 20 or so yards.

Endurance work - the shorter the distance the less important this is and 60 yard sprinters don't concern themselves with this at all. 100 meter sprinting is an in between catagory on one hand maintaining top speed is definitely important, on the other it is only a concern once a cycle of plyo work has been done and before a competition. On a cool note: An assessment of Usain Bolts speed has shown that he won by keeping his top speed up the longest of everyone else in the race, even though neither his acceleration or top speed was not the highest of the group. Honestly unless you will be competing this just isn't all that important.

I'd second the focusing on plyo work from sprinting and focusing on standing jump techniques. Sprinters have long reported carryover from their sprinting to rebounding work (no studies to support this but logically it makes sense).

On a final note check out technique points from Joe Defranco's website for jumping and sprinting. Working on this element will be the fastest way to improve your explosiveness.

EDIT: The guys that get the most results/most famous with their athletes are Joe Defranco and Charlie Francis. They both have websites and a ton of free information on both subjects. Kelly Bagget is another one and I like him because he makes all the concepts very simple. The only reason I didn't put him up with the two other strength coaches is because I am unaware of the athletes that he trained using his techniques and theories (doesn't mean that they don't exist), where as the the guys above have increased hundreds of athletes' verticals and sprinting speed.

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