Where should I place my FSP work?

[Aaron Griffin]

Thanks for this. I will start working on these, to see where I am. I will likely still keep working on the holds in the way I have been doing it, while I perfect these other things. But that is more just to get used to the positions. I do actually feel like I could hold the L-Sit for longer than I did when I first tested it, but not significantly so. So we'll see.

Just a few questions, because sites like drillsandskills don't cover these sorts of things:

plank - this is not the standard "pushup position on the forearms" plank, correct? It should be held in the hollow position?

reverse plank - this is on the palms, correct? Fingers in or out? Arch position, or completely rigid?

perfect hollow & arch holds - how does one define "perfect" for themselves? I used to do hollow rocks, but that has a definite goal of being "smooth". I can likely hold these positions for 60s, but I doubt they're "perfect" from a gymnastics perspective.

PB support - problem numero uno, I do not have bars... I've been using dumbells on the floor. Ideas? My kitchen chairs are pretty light weight too (I can't used them for dips)

chin up grip dead hang - cake

[Cole Dano]

I'm glad Slizz put that out there, i wanted to say pretty much the same thing, but didn't want to step on the Coach's wishes, i assume its ok to put that out there or else Slizz wouldn't have,

Sorry if i was indirect, just had my hands tied.

Amy way the plank is hollow hold, and reverse is arch hold. One small but important detail with an arch hold is you extend the hips so the tail bone is trying to tuck.

You can also do them with your feet elevated, on a chair for example.

Perfect to me means i don't break form from when i start to the end. Lower back glued to the floor in a hollow. Assuming you have the basic form right at the start the challenge is in the STATIC i.e. being stable, not giving in to gravity's pull.

Its no problem to play with L-sit, but you might find this routine is more demanding than you expect, so put your energy there for now. Once you meet the goals Slizz laid out you will be adding the L components anyway.

[Aaron Griffin]

Perfect to me means i don't break form from when i start to the end. Lower back glued to the floor in a hollow. Assuming you have the basic form right at the start the challenge is in the STATIC i.e. being stable, not giving in to gravity's pull.

Yeah, I definitely don't have the hollow spot on. When I used to do the rocks, I was fine keeping my body rigid, but it felt more like rolling a lug-nut around than something smooth. Ka-chunk, ka-chunk.

Should I be working on these 6 positions 4 days a week? Or should spread it out, and work on 1 or 2 per day?

[Joshua Naterman]

4 days per week! At first your performance will fluctuate, first rising rapidly and then probably declining slightly and hovering for a little while after that. Remember that it takes 6 weeks for the first muscular structure changes to take place, so be patient!

For the hollow, as you say you dont want to feel like a lug nut lol! IT should be pretty smooth. Sometimes if you have a lot of muscle on your butt and mid-back you may feel a very slight flat spot in the lower back but I'm pretty big and it is almost not noticeable. Very, very slight.

Don't mess with the hollow rocks until you have your hollow hold for 60s consistently for a few weeks. Remember, don't put any ego into this! Just stop when you lose correct form.

As for the PB situation, I'd suggest making a 2x4 or PVC dip station. There are many good guides for this on the internet, just google "home made dip bars" and you should get some great inspiration! You could also get some sturdy chairs, but that would end up costing as much as the dip bad material most likely.

[Tarun Suri]

Despite that, I'm really in the same boat as you. My max time for Lsits (knees bent a bit) on PB bars (wider than normal) is 10s and it frustrates me to think that I have to do my FSP's for 5s per set. I've been doing 10s sets for the past month and it did not help at all. I can do a regular Lsit for about 6s and that hasn't changed in the last month either. Very frustrating considering that it's such a fundamental position to master.

Whoo! I retested my Lsit (slightly bent knees, but still less bent than on PB) and I did a whooping 28 seconds. I guess there was a huge difference between those wide PB and the floor!

But I can still do a advance frogstand, tuck planche and flat tuck planche each for 6 seconds each

[Joshua Naterman]

LOL! There are a lot of prerequisites you are unaware of that will help with all of that. I can tell you this much: We are not intended to start directly training planche progressions beyond adv frog stand until we achieve a 30-60s FX L sit, and there are other pre-reqs in-between those two that help a lot.

[Tarun Suri]

I'll simply drink the coolaid and take your word on that Slizz. No more planche. Keep the Lsits, add the Hollows and hollow straight arm plank. Also, push hard downwards on all support positions. I won't ask questions about why... for now :wink:

[Aaron Griffin]

So I did a quick test of all the prereqs this morning.

Plank, with my pelvis tucked as if in a hollow position, was a bit harder than a traditional plank, but it still wasn't hard. I easily did 2 @ 60s.

Reverse plank, I'm not sure I understand it... are you talking about this: http://www.yogajournal.com/poses/2474 ?

If so, that's fairly hard for me to keep it locked out. I got to about 40s before my hips started to drop.

The hollow hold was hard, because I was squirming around trying to get the posture right, and keep ground contact with the small of my back. I got about 30s here, and ended with some decent small back pain (?!)

Arch hold I could have held for 60s, but stopped around 40s because my back was bugging me from the hollow hold.

Dead hang was fine, though I stopped at 45 seconds because my wife was leaving for work.

I didn't try the PB support yet...

So what's the deal with lower back pain. There was a thread about this elsewhere, and generally rounding the lower back outward is considered bad for you. Considering I want to avoid back pain, is it possible to do these things without training the hollow hold? The L-Sit really shouldn't depend on it, should it?

[Aaron Griffin]

I'll simply drink the coolaid and take your word on that Slizz. No more planche. Keep the Lsits, add the Hollows and hollow straight arm plank. Also, push hard downwards on all support positions. I won't ask questions about why... for now :wink:

Wait... straight armed plank? Not a forearm plank? Aha!

[Cole Dano]

Phark i hope i can hit all of your questions-

Yes the yoga pose Purvottanasana is the reverse plank. Allot of these things will have different names according to the context you find them, gymnastics and yoga wind up having a number of similar positions, multiple names aboound. (Now if we could only get apparatus in yoga!)

The back pain is an important concern, and not to be ignored.

Since the plank is also a hollow position how does your back feel there? In the plank you can actually feel how counter-rotating your hips (tailbone towards feet) gives space for the lower back, and makes the position feel BETTER.

Now the hollow isn't a true rounding of the back, its simply lengthening (ideally) and somewhat flattening. With out the lengthening pain may result.

So start by finding how to make plank feel good. Try the same thing with reverse plank, hips still counter rotate, glutes are active but wide.

This is part of why these 'elementary' steps are so critical.

For the hollow hold- its a more intense version of the above but the same concept applies. Since you know McGill you will also know about the abdominal bracing he recommends, well this is essentially the hollow hold. So also practice the bracing, activating not only the middle abs but also the sides.

From there to set up for the hollow hold, first start lay with your knees bent and feet flat on the floor and prop your body up on your elbows. Now keep your feet on the floor for a moment and use your elbows to lengthen your lower back until its touching the floor, it should feel the same as in plank. Turn on the bracing and then extend your legs into the air.

You may have to experiment with how high or low to keep your feet, and may need to have your arms at your sides at first, remember your low back is more important, but hopefully you will find a position that works for you.

This will actually help your low back in the long run by building bullet proof core stability. And yes, this is essential for the L-sit which is essentially a hollow hold with legs flexed against gravity.

[Aaron Griffin]

Yes the yoga pose Purvottanasana is the reverse plank. Allot of these things will have different names according to the context you find them, gymnastics and yoga wind up having a number of similar positions, multiple names aboound. (Now if we could only get apparatus in yoga!)

I did yoga classes 3 days a week for about 2 years. I still use yoga names when I record things, or write things down. I even use "garland pose" in place of "primitive squat"

The back pain is an important concern, and not to be ignored.

Since the plank is also a hollow position how does your back feel there? In the plank you can actually feel how counter-rotating your hips (tailbone towards feet) gives space for the lower back, and makes the position feel BETTER.

Now the hollow isn't a true rounding of the back, its simply lengthening (ideally) and somewhat flattening. With out the lengthening pain may result.

So start by finding how to make plank feel good. Try the same thing with reverse plank, hips still counter rotate, glutes are active but wide.

Because it wasn't covered, we're talking about a straight-armed plank and not the forearm plank?

The plank feels fine in (what I assume is) the hollow position. However, that may be related to abdominal stabilization.

Should I assume the hips externally rotate in the hollow position and internally rotate in the arch? And the focus should not be on rounding or flattening the lower back, but lengthening it?

This is part of why these 'elementary' steps are so critical.

For the hollow hold- its a more intense version of the above but the same concept applies. Since you know McGill you will also know about the abdominal bracing he recommends, well this is essentially the hollow hold. So also practice the bracing, activating not only the middle abs but also the sides.

From there to set up for the hollow hold, first start lay with your knees bent and feet flat on the floor and prop your body up on your elbows. Now keep your feet on the floor for a moment and use your elbows to lengthen your lower back until its touching the floor, it should feel the same as in plank. Turn on the bracing and then extend your legs into the air.

You may have to experiment with how high or low to keep your feet, and may need to have your arms at your sides at first, remember your low back is more important, but hopefully you will find a position that works for you.

This will actually help your low back in the long run by building bullet proof core stability. And yes, this is essential for the L-sit which is essentially a hollow hold with legs flexed against gravity.

Yeah, this hip/lower-back thing might be my missing link. Are you indicating that the hollow and arch holds should feel near identical to the plank versions, in terms of the hips / lower-back?

Regarding the feet height, are you saying something like this is acceptable (were it a hollow hold and not a v-sit):

[Cole Dano]

Yes, its a straight arm plank we are talking about. Elbow plank is a McGill thing too, and its good when focusing solely on the bracing and hip extension.

Ironically the hips extend in both hollow and arch. Ot you took yoga, think about tadasana vs shalambasana, in both poses we're instructed to move the tailbone down, same here. So in your arch hold, the pit of the belly pulls toward the chest.

Oh yes the navasana feet are what i meant, its an intermediate step, but save your back.

[Aaron Griffin]

Oh yes the navasana feet are what i meant, its an intermediate step, but save your back.

Would it be worth starting there, working the boat pose up to 60s, and then lowering from there?

Do you happen to have any good guides as to what to expect from the hollow position? I may have been spoiled by the "hollow rocks" concept - I was under the assumption the goal was to be rounded so that rocking is smooth. In order to achieve this, the lower back would need to be rounded out.

This is the best I can find and it's terrible from an instructional standpoint:

- she doesn't seem "rounded" to me. More like an extended boat pose...

[Joshua Naterman]

Your lower back may have felt weird/bad because it is not yet used to being extended under tension. This gave me huge problems for about 2 months, because all I ever really did was deadlift with my lower back and I always kep tit locked. I never really did anything that mobilized my spine in all the directions it is designed for, and for me this manifested as extreme shooting pain when doing HeS RLL! I could lift ok, but when lowering (which is when the lower back would be extending and rounding somewhat) I would get these horrible pains. THey are gone and I am doing easy sets of 10 pike RLL in my warm ups these days.

For me, I had to start by standing up, putting my hands on my knees in a quarter squat position, and tucking my pelvis as far as I could. I felt EXTREME stiffness in my lower back, but I did 15-20 reps every morning and at random times in the day. It looked really, really stupid. It also worked. Over time I gained the mobility that I had lost. Eventually I didn't need my hands on my knees to fully tuck my hips or fully extend them. I went from fully arched lower back to fully tucked hips and extended/rounded lower back. That was hard, at first I had to restrict the ROM slightly or finger-spot myself occasionally, but now it's easy. This may help you, I don't know. This lack of spinal mobility is BAD NEWS and it's definitely time to take care of it. I don't know if there is a better way, I just made up my mind one morning that I was going to slowly start moving my spine and this is how I did it.

[Tarun Suri]

Your lower back may have felt weird/bad because it is not yet used to being extended under tension. This gave me huge problems for about 2 months, because all I ever really did was deadlift with my lower back and I always kep tit locked. I never really did anything that mobilized my spine in all the directions it is designed for, and for me this manifested as extreme shooting pain when doing HeS RLL! I could lift ok, but when lowering (which is when the lower back would be extending and rounding somewhat) I would get these horrible pains. THey are gone and I am doing easy sets of 10 pike RLL in my warm ups these days.

For me, I had to start by standing up, putting my hands on my knees in a quarter squat position, and tucking my pelvis as far as I could. I felt EXTREME stiffness in my lower back, but I did 15-20 reps every morning and at random times in the day. It looked really, really stupid. It also worked. Over time I gained the mobility that I had lost. Eventually I didn't need my hands on my knees to fully tuck my hips or fully extend them. I went from fully arched lower back to fully tucked hips and extended/rounded lower back. That was hard, at first I had to restrict the ROM slightly or finger-spot myself occasionally, but now it's easy. This may help you, I don't know. This lack of spinal mobility is BAD NEWS and it's definitely time to take care of it. I don't know if there is a better way, I just made up my mind one morning that I was going to slowly start moving my spine and this is how I did it.

Wow, I just tried that and barely have any mobility in that movement! What an eye opener.

[Joshua Naterman]

I know, I actually got scared for a moment at first, like .... is my frikin' SPINE FUSED?!?! But no... my nervous system was completely unaware that it was able to do this movement. I still do it most mornings, it's great! I feel like I got a lost part of my childhood back. It is still slightly challenging, but not bad anymore.

[Aaron Griffin]

I'm not sure I understand this....

So I bend over a wee bit, and put my hands on my knees. And then basically...ermm..."thrust" with the pelvis?

[Joshua Naterman]

Yes, but slowly. Love the air. If you feel extreme stiffness and stretching in the lower back, don't push it too hard. As the weeks pass you will find that your mobility increases and soon after that the stiffness/stretching feeling starts to fade. I still feel it, but not that much anymore. At first it almost felt like my spine was going to snap if I went beyond a certain point, so I just didn't for a while, and eventually max ROM was no problem.

[Aaron Griffin]

Yes, but slowly. Love the air. If you feel extreme stiffness and stretching in the lower back, don't push it too hard. As the weeks pass you will find that your mobility increases and soon after that the stiffness/stretching feeling starts to fade. I still feel it, but not that much anymore. At first it almost felt like my spine was going to snap if I went beyond a certain point, so I just didn't for a while, and eventually max ROM was no problem.

I actually do have a decent amount of mobility here. It takes concentration for me to move it in the bent position like that, but I've had some variation of pelvic tilts in my morning mobility work for some time.

[Joshua Naterman]

Great! That's good news. The second part is having strength to go with the mobility. Do you have any problem doing piked HeS RLL? Can you keep your knees locked for 5 reps? I'm asking to see if perhaps you share some of the issues that I am working through. At first I could not do this, the strength was there but my back would hurt. A lot of work with straddle presses and just pressing up in pike but lowering in straddle worked for me over the course of about a month.

Maybe you should try staying in a 90/90 position at the hips/knees in your hollow hold and see if that still causes back pain/discomfort. If it doesn't, that may be a great place to start, and just slowly straighten out from there.

Are you still feeling similar things when you try your hollow holds?

[Sharat]

Indeed a very informative discussion here.

I have some questions though:

- would you recommend the same 6 static exercises as a starting line for every newcomer irrelevant of his current ability(not including previous gymnastics experience of course) ?

- should the warm-up consist of only those 6 fsp's and none of the progressions in the book or are they supplementary?

[Joshua Naterman]

1) Absolutely not, there are certain pre-requisites that must be met, and everything starts with the L-sit. However, if someone has already started with the actual FSP work there is nothing wrong with them maintaining that while they work on the pre-requisites.

2) FSP work and/or pre-requisite work is only a portion of the warm up. Joint prep and pre-hab, dynamic flexibility, and easier FBE work should all be part of each warm up, and preferably geared to each WOD somewhat specifically. The whole body should be worked, but there are some methods seem to better prepare the body for ring work, like elastic bands. It is also good to use different implements to work similar exercises to keep the body growing stronger in different ways.

[Aaron Griffin]

Great! That's good news. The second part is having strength to go with the mobility. Do you have any problem doing piked HeS RLL? Can you keep your knees locked for 5 reps? I'm asking to see if perhaps you share some of the issues that I am working through. At first I could not do this, the strength was there but my back would hurt. A lot of work with straddle presses and just pressing up in pike but lowering in straddle worked for me over the course of about a month.

Maybe you should try staying in a 90/90 position at the hips/knees in your hollow hold and see if that still causes back pain/discomfort. If it doesn't, that may be a great place to start, and just slowly straighten out from there.

Are you still feeling similar things when you try your hollow holds?

I'll have to try this tomorrow. I've never attempted HeS leg raises, so I hope I have the balance for it I do know, however, that lying leg raises do curl my lower back in a very funny way... most people are able to keep the tail bone down up to 90 degrees, but mine raises up around the 70 degree mark - compensatory movement from the lower back

[Joshua Naterman]

Interesting. How is your hip flexor flexibility? Are you able to lie back on the ground without arching your lower back from a feet together kneeling position? At the very least, elbows on the ground with a straight or even slightly hollow upper body would be a good beginning goal. I don't know if that is actually a problem, but usually patterns like that emerge from less than ideal hip mobility due to lack of flexibility, though they can also come from a lot of squatting and dead lifting if you aren't careful to maintain that mobility even if you ARE working the flexibility...

[Aaron Griffin]

Interesting. How is your hip flexor flexibility?

My hip flexors are TERRIBLE. I've been spending a lot of time trying to stretch them out. I am a desk jockey and have spent the last 8 years of employment seated 90% of the time. Add in school and all that, and you end up with me. Poor hips mobility and all that.

Any specific advice would be appreciated. I have recently worked up to a full "primitive squat" being comfortable for about 45-60 seconds, and I can balance just fine in that position. I also try to work my glutes enough to counterbalance my crap-tacular hip flexors and hopefully stretch them out a bit

I'm very aware of these issues, as my brother personally trains down at IFAST with the guys who wrote "Magnificent Mobility". I just don't think I've logged enough hours to correct this.

Are you able to lie back on the ground without arching your lower back from a feet together kneeling position?

Do you mean the "reclining hero" position? I cannot touch the ground. I've actually just gotten to the point where sitting in seiza during jujutsu classes is comfortable, so I imagine I have some ways to go there.