Where should I place my FSP work?

I strength train 6 days a week, in the mornings. I recently added in some of the FSP work (L-Sit, Planche, Front Lever, Back Lever). However, I'm unsure of where to place these in the typical work load. I do them after my strength work is done, but am not sure if this is ideal.

I currently do one FSP per day, to match the strength work I do (Back Lever on a strong pulling day, etc). This gives me one single FSP per day, 4 days a week. But this probably isn't ideal. Should I be training all 4 FSPs more regularly? Does it matter if I match pull/push days? Should I do 2 a day? Or perhaps even cut it all back and train just L-Sit and Back Lever for now?

Thoughs / opinions?

Goto slizzardmans YouTube profile and watch his fsp warmup video. It should tell you what you need to know.

Lavastine said:

Goto slizzardmans YouTube profile and watch his fsp warmup video. It should tell you what you need to know.

I did go there but did not find one with "fsp" or "warmup" in the title.

EDIT - Found it -

Lavastine said:

Goto slizzardmans YouTube profile and watch his fsp warmup video. It should tell you what you need to know.

So what I'm getting from this is: do the same static holds 4 days a week, correct?

If that's true, would it be best to start with only two: L-Sit and Back Lever? I almost feel like anything more would be too much for me at this point.

Yes in terms of the GB WOD program, the FSP work is part of the warm up. I don't see why you couldn't do the same with your training.

Working just L-sit and BL is a good way to start, the next to add would be FL then Planche.

Also remember you can work the position in the easiest possible variation that you can hold for time.

For example i was doing a full L at first but soon realized i couldn't hold it for long enough, and have purposely stepped back to a bent knee that i can hold for a minute, and will do that for my warm up this cycle. Until you hit the advanced L the goal is one minute, and advanced L is 30 sec, so the L times are longer but it is a crucial static to master so i figure stepping back will only help in the long run.

Of course as part of the WOD i will do the more advanced variations that i can hold for 15 sec.

Including statics in the warmup is something I didn't think about. Does this still mean that I would do N sets totaling 60s? I am miserable at these things right now, so that's actually a decent amount of time, all things considered - I'm worried that my "warmup" wouldn't leave me too warm

phrak said:

Including statics in the warmup is something I didn't think about. Does this still mean that I would do N sets totaling 60s? I am miserable at these things right now, so that's actually a decent amount of time, all things considered - I'm worried that my "warmup" wouldn't leave me too warm

Can you describe in detail what and how you are practicing the FSPs? Obviously 60 1 second attempts is not only frustruating but also pointless. Maybe if we have a better idea of what you are doing we will be able to spot the problem.

Mr Brady said:

Can you describe in detail what and how you are practicing the FSPs? Obviously 60 1 second attempts is not only frustruating but also pointless. Maybe if we have a better idea of what you are doing we will be able to spot the problem.

I'm using the "steady state" routine. I went and tested, say, an Tuck L-Sit, and hit the 10s mark. So this means I should, according to the book, train 12 sets of 5s Tuck L-Sits, with around 15-30s of rest between sets, for 8-12 weeks, and then retest.

This is fine, but it seems (and feels like) much more than a "warmup" to me. I am currently doing:

Tuck L-Sit: 12@5s

Adv Frog Stand: 10@6s

Tuck Front Lever: 20@3s

German Hang: 10@6s

How would you program this?

For more info, I currently do one FSP per day.

M: Back Lever work

T: L-Sit work

W: Planche work

Th: Front Lever work

I don't think there will be enough time to do all 4 every day, but perhaps separating push/pull work and doing L-Sit and Planche work one day, and Back & Front Lever work on another would work. Something like:

M: Pull / T: Push / W: Pull / Th: Push

phrak said:

For more info, I currently do one FSP per day.

M: Back Lever work

T: L-Sit work

W: Planche work

Th: Front Lever work

I don't think there will be enough time to do all 4 every day, but perhaps separating push/pull work and doing L-Sit and Planche work one day, and Back & Front Lever work on another would work. Something like:

M: Pull / T: Push / W: Pull / Th: Push

I have been considering 2 FSPs a day. Wondering what would be good PAIRs to spread across 4 days for the Basic ones.

Ok, if you are only at a 5 sec tuck L, that's a major issue, as the L-sit goes the others follow. Getting a more solid L sit is your first priority.

What is failing in your l-sit, abs or arms?

Mr Brady said:

Ok, if you are only at a 5 sec tuck L, that's a major issue, as the L-sit goes the others follow. Getting a more solid L sit is your first priority.

What is failing in your l-sit, abs or arms?

Actually, I can hold a 10s Tuck L, but the steady state program uses sets of 50% max time. I believe the failure is actually not in the abs, but in the hips. When I tuck my legs up, I feel more strain in my hip flexors than the abs.

EDIT: Just tried for a few seconds here in my office chair. Wrist and abs/hips were the weak links. Not sure which failed first when I went for max time.

The FSPs are just too much for you right now, you need to scale down.

Do planks until you can hold them for at least for a minute.

This will build up your wrists, core and legs all under a reduced load.

Keep working these till you are at an easy minute, then keep doing them while adding the L-sit you are doing now.

Maybe adding support holds and hangs for the same timing.

Mr Brady said:

The FSPs are just too much for you right now, you need to scale down.

Do planks until you can hold them for at least for a minute.

This will build up your wrists, core and legs all under a reduced load.

Keep working these till you are at an easy minute, then keep doing them while adding the L-sit you are doing now.

Maybe adding support holds and hangs for the same timing.

I can do a 3 minute plank. Planks do not work the hip flexors. As I said, I believe the point of failure is the hip flexor, not the abdominals.

Your advice is completely the opposite of what is in the book. It says that if you can perform a static hold for 3 to 5 seconds, you can work on it. The planche example given on page 172 actually uses someone with a maximum tuck planche of 11 seconds, resulting in ten reps of 6.

I can perform these holds, just not for significant time. However, the book indicates that my numbers are spot on.

If you look around the forum you will see that the book is unfortunately confusing on this point.

Again use some common sense, there's a big difference between a tuck L and a planche, so there should be a big difference in how long you can hold them.

You need to be able to hold the earlier parts of a progression for a minute. Since most of this info comes from the seminar i'm not at liberty to discuss it and may have already said to much.

There is a new edition of the book in the works which will detail the progressions from the beginning. The Coach was to used to working with his grown athletes when he wrote the book and didn't realize that most grown trainees didn't know this already.

You yourself said the wrists gave out as soon as the flexors. Hence my suggestion. Your post already shows that you know something is wrong, obviously it doesn't make any sense to do what you are doing, you won't get anywhere that way.

What i can say i get creative enough to find some variation that you can hold for 15 seconds. Hopefully rather than offending you, giving plank as a possible example will help release your creative juices.

Trust me when i say on the strength side of this forum i'm way down the totem pole, and i could hold the basic variations for that long easy from day one. Still since learning the full progressions, i've stepped many of my statics down to where i can manage a full minute, because i've never done those holds for so long. I want a good foundation.

In general we do treat this like strength work, and though the recommendation is at 50% it may be you will need to go to 80% at first to build that basic strength. Especially if you aren't doing the WODs, you can put more into the statics. This is just my opinion.

Mr Brady said:

There is a new edition of the book in the works which will detail the progressions from the beginning. The Coach was to used to working with his grown athletes when he wrote the book and didn't realize that most grown trainees didn't know this already.

Did Coach mention when the 2nd edition would be out? By Christmas perhaps?

Come on Triangle, you know the drill....

A man's gotta try...

Yep, i was bitting my tongue pretty hard when ever the topic of the next books came up....waiting is the hardest part!

If I were there I would been the dumbass that raised my hand and said, "So any idea when the books are coming out?" *cue Coach Sommer death stare*

phrak said:

Mr Brady said:

The FSPs are just too much for you right now, you need to scale down.

Do planks until you can hold them for at least for a minute.

This will build up your wrists, core and legs all under a reduced load.

Keep working these till you are at an easy minute, then keep doing them while adding the L-sit you are doing now.

Maybe adding support holds and hangs for the same timing.

I can do a 3 minute plank. Planks do not work the hip flexors. As I said, I believe the point of failure is the hip flexor, not the abdominals.

Keep in mind that most people do not perform the plank properly. If I did it, I could probably do it for maybe 3-5 minutes, however, when I focus on keeping a completely neutral spine throughout the hold, based on my deficiencies, I get a huge increase in difficulty. My max hold time for a proper plank is ... (let me test this) ... about a minute and a half before my form kept degrading down to my usual plank.

Despite that, I'm really in the same boat as you. My max time for Lsits (knees bent a bit) on PB bars (wider than normal) is 10s and it frustrates me to think that I have to do my FSP's for 5s per set. I've been doing 10s sets for the past month and it did not help at all. I can do a regular Lsit for about 6s and that hasn't changed in the last month either. Very frustrating considering that it's such a fundamental position to master.

RandomHavoc said:

Despite that, I'm really in the same boat as you. My max time for Lsits (knees bent a bit) on PB bars (wider than normal) is 10s and it frustrates me to think that I have to do my FSP's for 5s per set. I've been doing 10s sets for the past month and it did not help at all. I can do a regular Lsit for about 6s and that hasn't changed in the last month either. Very frustrating considering that it's such a fundamental position to master.

I worked it last night with my prescribed timing because I didn't have a definitive answer. This is only the second week I've been at this, and I think I've learned a few things about form and balance that might actually improve my maximum. I'm wondering if I should maybe go ahead and retest for the maximum.

Is general consensus that if you can't hold an L-Sit for 15 seconds OR MORE, then you need to do something else? Or should I just keep working on it?

Mr Brady said:

You yourself said the wrists gave out as soon as the flexors. Hence my suggestion. Your post already shows that you know something is wrong, obviously it doesn't make any sense to do what you are doing, you won't get anywhere that way.

What i can say i get creative enough to find some variation that you can hold for 15 seconds. Hopefully rather than offending you, giving plank as a possible example will help release your creative juices.

Well, I *think* that's what gave out. I did the actual test like 3 weeks ago and pretty much had never even attempted an L-Sit, Tuck or otherwise, before. I wasn't really paying attention to what failed, because my body was in a position I wasn't used to, so it required concentration on my part.

That said, is 15s the minimum for all 4 of the holds I'm attempting? Should I try a re-test?

I'd say give yourself a little room and time to get used to the program.

I personally wouldn't get that hung up on exact times, lets say do something you can hold long enough to make it worth it. If you only started within the last few weeks, i'd bet its more a matter of getting used to the whole program. Play with the 4 elements you are working on, but make an easier variation (plank was one idea of a number of possibilities) that you can hold the staple. This will give you some time to adapt, and not feel like you have to do a million reps of something.

Search around the site/net for some of the preliminary gymnastics exercises.

phrak said:

Mr Brady said:

The FSPs are just too much for you right now, you need to scale down.

Do planks until you can hold them for at least for a minute.

This will build up your wrists, core and legs all under a reduced load.

Keep working these till you are at an easy minute, then keep doing them while adding the L-sit you are doing now.

Maybe adding support holds and hangs for the same timing.

I can do a 3 minute plank. Planks do not work the hip flexors. As I said, I believe the point of failure is the hip flexor, not the abdominals.

Your advice is completely the opposite of what is in the book. It says that if you can perform a static hold for 3 to 5 seconds, you can work on it. The planche example given on page 172 actually uses someone with a maximum tuck planche of 11 seconds, resulting in ten reps of 6.

I can perform these holds, just not for significant time. However, the book indicates that my numbers are spot on.

You will be one of the many who truly benefits from the 2nd edition of the book. There are a lot of fundamental steps along the way to practicing each FSP that need to be met, and I am willing to bet that very few people here can do them all.

The first big red light I see here is you thinking that plank does not work hip flexors. Perhaps "plank" is not a good enough description. Hollow chest, hollow hips straight-arm plank with feet elevated so that the body is parallel with the ground for one minute is the very first step. Even if you can do this, you should still be doing this in your warm up for 60s. First establish 3x60s with PERFECT form. After that just one set of 60s is needed to maintain, and your efforts will then be concentrated on the next step. With anything on PB, your first order of business is to establish a 60s PB support. This means arms pushed DOWN, not shoulders next to ears. Straight arms. Straight body. Head forward. 3x60s until you get that PERFECTLY. If your shoulders start rising at 45s you stop there and do two more sets. Eventually you will be able to do the 60s no problem. This is absolutely VITAL. The reason these positions are emphasized as starting points is that they build the specific strength that you are going to need for more advanced work, and without this development you will not proceed.

What you are trying to do is kind of like someone trying to learn to squat with a straight back using a weight that currently causes a bend. That doesn't work. You have to go all the way down to a weight that allows you to keep a straight back and then build up from there. You need to look at your statics the same way.

Reverse plank and hollow holds should be the other things you work on.

Your warm up should look like:

60s plank

60s reverse plank

60s perfect hollow hold with hands over your head

60s arch hold in the superman flying position

60s PB support.

60s chin up grip dead hang

That will keep you busy for quite a little while. You shouldn't need any rest really, maybe a few breaths. Honestly, that is probably too much right now, which is why you will be doing these for whatever time you can manage with a perfect hold and doing 3 total sets. You can do them in rounds or as individual exercises, though I know Coach prefers his guys to do 3 sets plank if they can't hold 60s, THEN 3 sets reverse plank, etc. If you DO have an easy 60s PERFECT hold then that is all you will do each day. At first this may take up to 20 minutes to perform. Eventually it will take 6 minutes. As you get stronger your warm up will evolve just as your workouts will, but for a while this is where you should be. If it makes you feel any better, I have started off with this stuff too and worked my way through the basics. I still practice them every day as my warm up, along with the shoulder balancing stuff that I repeat so often here, and I am seeing good improvements.

You should start thinking of "warm up" as basic strength and CNS learning reinforcement. For you, this IS the basics. It's going to be tough, and that's ok. If you don't build up to this you will never make good progress in much of your strength work. This idea applies whether it is weight lifting, bodybuilding or gymnastics. Failure to recognize this necessity and develop this ability is what holds back a lot of people.

I know that sometimes it seems like the advice we give is wonky, but try to remember that those of us putting it out there have gotten this information directly from Coach, face to face at the seminars. You would be surprised at how many people who are quite strong find out they have weak points that are holding them back. This knowledge is, in my opinion, the single biggest reason that May's seminar attendees made so much progress between then and September.

When you put a 6 minute video up showing me you have accomplished all of this I will assist you in the next step. In the meantime, master what I posted. Put up a video of your initial attempts so that we can see where you are starting from. It will help if you are wearing shorts that do not cover your knees and a tight tank top or no shirt at all. We need to be able to see your body in order to help you. Post that in Digital Coaching.