Quick statics question

[Coach Sommer]

... While it is true that adaptation takes place as a result of these sets, it is a very bad idea to think of them as strength exercises, because they are not. They are skills. The strength that allows you to progress comes mostly from the WODs or whatever other conditioning you do. The statics allow your body to learn to USE it better. Some strength does get developed in this process, but it is primarily teaching your body to use what it has ...

This is incorrect.

The FSP are strength elements and should be trained as such. However the intensity employed while training these static exercises is highly dependent upon your particular stage of development. Consequently if a beginner, especially a strong beginner, attempts to train FSPs with the same level of intensity as their FBEs, an injury will most likely occur. The purpose of the FSP SSC approach is to provide the body with adequate time to allow the necessary adaptations to occur.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Eddie Stelling]

Thanks Coach! Just to clarify, the steady state routine of training and strengthening the FSPs that slizzardman described is the best method to improve on these, correct? I think I finally got it figured out. I am going to implement 10 min of handstand work before my FSP sets, then work the FSP sets, then do the WOD. Sound good? Can you please take a look at the below and tell me if everything looks good to you?

Tested my max times:

Straddle L (bent legs) = 35 sec

XR - FL (adv. tuck) = 29 sec

(bars) - PL (Frog Stand) = 36 sec (wrist problems at the moment)

Reverse Push-up = +1 min (not sure if i did it right, very easy for me, hips were high, shoulders over hands the whole time)

XR - BL (adv. tuck, palms down) = 15 sec....rest....XR - German Hang = 40 sec (the BL w/ palms down is harder than palms up)

(bars) - L-sit = 26 sec

So, now my sets will be:

Straddle L (bent legs) = 4 x 15 sec

XR - FL (adv. tuck) = 4 x 15 sec

PL (Frog Stand) = 3 x 20 sec

Reverse Push-up = 3 x 30 sec

XR - German Hang = 3 x 20 sec

(bars) - L-sit = 5 x 12 sec

Does this look correct to you? Thanks Coach

[Joshua Naterman]

This is incorrect.

The FSP are strength elements and should be trained as such. However the intensity employed while training these static exercises is highly dependent upon your particular stage of development. Consequently if a beginner, especially a strong beginner, attempts to train FSPs with the same level of intensity as their FBEs, an injury will most likely occur. The purpose of the FSP SSC approach is to provide the body with adequate time to allow the necessary adaptations to occur.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Uh oh! :oops: :shock: Where's the face palm when you need it...

I never really talk about that later part since basically none of us are there! I know that the final forms of the statics all require quite a bit of strength to perform, but since thinking of them as strength moves seems to be leading to lots of thankfully minor injuries it seemed better to emphasize the skill aspect to help people keep intensity at the 'right' level. I didn't mean to make such an absolute statement! Sorry about that, everyone. :oops:

So, for all of us here, eventually the statics will be worked with higher intensity, but until our bodies adapt, which seems to be at the point where we reach the 60s advanced tuck for PL, BL, FL, 60s L sit, etc.

Coach, I have one question about that myself:

In the somewhat far future when there are a number of us here who are at the point where we are ready for high intensity static work, how will our warm up sets change? Here is a concrete example. Lets say, hypothetically, I can do a 15s straddle planche. Will I be doing 60s of straddle planche in the warm up before WODs, will I be doing slightly less total time due to the higher intensity, or will I be doing some longer holds of advanced tuck before a few straddle holds? Or is it none of those?

I was thinking that at that point it would be good to do one longer hold of the advanced tuck, like 30-40s or something, and then 3-5 straddle holds for half max as usual. Is that way off? Do you still stick to the half max rule for the higher intensity static work?

[Tarun Suri]

Looks solid to me.

As the weeks go by and you get used to this volume for your warmup, I would add planche leans, support holds and handstands. In fact, I would say you should add support holds immediately.

[Joshua Naterman]

Thanks Coach! Just to clarify, the steady state routine of training and strengthening the FSPs that slizzardman described is the best method to improve on these, correct? I think I finally got it figured out. I am going to implement 10 min of handstand work before my FSP sets, then work the FSP sets, then do the WOD. Sound good? Can you please take a look at the below and tell me if everything looks good to you?

Tested my max times:

Straddle L (bent legs) = 35 sec

XR - FL (adv. tuck) = 29 sec

(bars) - PL (Frog Stand) = 36 sec (wrist problems at the moment)

Reverse Push-up = +1 min (not sure if i did it right, very easy for me, hips were high, shoulders over hands the whole time)

XR - BL (adv. tuck, palms down) = 15 sec....rest....XR - German Hang = 40 sec (the BL w/ palms down is harder than palms up)

(bars) - L-sit = 26 sec

So, now my sets will be:

Straddle L (bent legs) = 4 x 15 sec

XR - FL (adv. tuck) = 4 x 15 sec

PL (Frog Stand) = 3 x 20 sec

Reverse Push-up = 3 x 30 sec

XR - German Hang = 3 x 20 sec

(bars) - L-sit = 5 x 12 sec

Does this look correct to you? Thanks Coach

It's looking ok, but you could do 13s with the L sit and 18 with straddle L. The Frog isn't bad to do at 20s, especially if that doesn't bother you. If it does, try sticking to a strict 18s, but I will be surprised if that becomes necessary for THAT one. Starting with adv frog, when you're using straight arms, I would suggest using a very strict 50% ! It doesn't seem like an extra 2 seconds would matter since they pass so quickly, but they can. What wrist problems are you having?

Reverse push up really isn't that hard. At this point my hands are below my sternum for sure, with fingers pointed back and chest elevated. At first this was too much, but now it's not bad. I don't know if this is quite the perfect mindset, but I treated this one a lot like a planche lean. Once I had a perfect 60s with hands under my shoulders I just started inching back to simulate pressing up into a Manna so that I can build some of that strength. The most important thing is to stop the set as soon as you lose chest elevation or some other aspect of the form! If you've got a solid 60s, inch back just a little and continue your holds there! As long as you're working on the L sit and Straddle L you'll be building a great base. Each time you test your max, test the first Manna progression in the book too! If you're able to do that for 15-20s you should be ok with starting to practice that one. Just remember to always elevate the chest and keep your back as straight as possible!

Overall you're at a pretty good starting point and are doing the SSC calculations correctly.

[Eddie Stelling]

Thansk alot guys, I appreciate the help! I am going to post a video or a picture of the frog stand. I was doing this postion all wrong for a long time until I watched your video on the warmups. When I tested this I did it with my inner thigh on the outside of my elbows (wrong). On tuesday I did it correctly and found it much easier. 3 X 20s was not challenging at all.

Also, I have always done this with arms straight and locked out, is that considered the advanced frog? If so that is the level I am training on for the PL.

My wrist was hyperextended, someone landed on it in jui jitsu class and forced my fingertips to my fore arm (palm side). This was nearly a month ago and everything is ok but the doc said its inflamed and to where a brace during the day, wrap my wrist when i work out, and do a 10 day cycle with aleve. Feeling better already. I have slight wrist pain frequently on both wrist before and after this injury due to lots of handstand work. I am going to work the wrist pushups and I guess ice them more often. Any suggestions??

[Joshua Naterman]

Yea, that immobilization is crap. You definitely shouldn't try and do anything full blast with it, so bracing it during training is probably a GREAT idea, although just building back up is probably better.

Start off with easy wrist stuff, like push ups or wall push ups(flat hands AND fingertips when you can) and do the same with the wrist push ups. Start with them on the wall! A little bit of light hand gripper work will also help tighten things back up, and some very light wrist curls with weights or milk jugs or something can also help. Just a set or two of each every day will do wonders. Don't try and work it as strength, work it as movement. There should be no pain, just some slight discomfort near the end if anything. That's when you know to stop.

I'd keep everything in straight movements, no circles. What happened has temporarily loosened the ligaments and it's important to expose them to low levels of stress so that they re-tighten. Doing too much will just make the problem worse.

Short cycles of meds like what the Doc recommended aren't bad, just don't let that become a regular thing lol!

If you're doing arms straight then you're doing advanced frog. Is that where your 53 second max hold was?

Tone down the HS work, you shouldn't have any wrist pain. For now I wouldn't be doing any and when you get back into it, keep up the wrist work and I think you'll find that your wrist pain becomes a thing of the past over the course of a few months, and you'll be doing your old volume with no pain. Make SURE that wrist work becomes a regular part of your training!

[Eddie Stelling]

Thanks for all the wrist advice. That sounds awesome. The wall wrist pushups are a great idea to scale back until my wrist is ready. Thanks man!

I have never done the advanced frog in the correct position for a max time. When I tested myself on monday I did it with inner thigh on the outside of the elbow. Max time was 36 sec. I am going to test the correct position again for max hold time. I will let you know what I get and maybe you could help me out with where to go from there. I will post it tonight after my workout. Thanks man!

[Deft-Mastery]

This is slightly off topic but, ok so I do my workout, and when I'm done my arms and chest and well my upper body is all very muscular and defined and stuff, but like 30 minutes later, it all goes away and it's like I haven't done anything. Obviously I knew about this the first time I exercised years ago. Is this what they call the "pump"?

[Joshua Naterman]

That is the pump. Before making Arnold references from Pumping Iron, watch the commentary on the special editions. Arnold's hilarious!

[Deft-Mastery]

So what do you do to keep or eventually get to that pumped state? Just keep working out?

[Deft-Mastery]

Arnold's hilarious!

That's right hahaha

[Paul Gray]

I'm another person who has only just found out about the german hangs being a pre-requisite to the back lever. Can someone please detail the steps to training these - moving into the position and back out of it safely? (plus also how the body should be aligned etc) It looks like an exercise that could be a recipe for disaster if not done correctly.....

:shock:

thanks

[Joshua Naterman]

I will do what I can. I'm working on some fundamental explanatory videos that will demonstrate some of the basics, and will hopefully do some good for you.

In the meantime. hang your rings low enough so that you can barely touch the ground with your knees when you're in the German hang. From there get into the hang with feet on the ground, you will be in some sort of a squatting type position. In this position it is easy to slowly make your body more vertical without using your entire bodyweight. It is important to achieve a very deep German hang so that it is a stretch and not an isometric hold. You want to be pushing as deep as you can eventually, but you will need to get there in small steps. Once you get there, start using less assistance. It may take a few months for many, but the time spent is worth it. When you find that you can hold your bodyweight in the GH, raise the rings higher up. Eventually, once you have a solid hang of 15s or more you can start lowering down into it from the inverted hang position.

There are floor stretches that also help, and I will show this process and the floor stretch when I'm done with my test today. I can't give out the full step-by-step progression for the statics, but I can lay out the information that is already out there. I will also make a video on how to perform an effective pre-hab warm up, because I think that everyone here needs to understand that you should really be pre-habbing your entire body each warm up.

[Aaron Griffin]

Just wanted to chime in and say this thread was incredibly useful to me. slizzardman, if you are considering collecting errata somewhere, start with the info from this thread

It might also be worth noting that the hollow and arch positions are important to the beginner steps, which is why I believe I am struggling.

[ASForum]

I will do what I can. I'm working on some fundamental explanatory videos that will demonstrate some of the basics, and will hopefully do some good for you.

In the meantime. hang your rings low enough so that you can barely touch the ground with your knees when you're in the German hang. From there get into the hang with feet on the ground, you will be in some sort of a squatting type position. In this position it is easy to slowly make your body more vertical without using your entire bodyweight. It is important to achieve a very deep German hang so that it is a stretch and not an isometric hold. You want to be pushing as deep as you can eventually, but you will need to get there in small steps. Once you get there, start using less assistance. It may take a few months for many, but the time spent is worth it. When you find that you can hold your bodyweight in the GH, raise the rings higher up. Eventually, once you have a solid hang of 15s or more you can start lowering down into it from the inverted hang position.

There are floor stretches that also help, and I will show this process and the floor stretch when I'm done with my test today. I can't give out the full step-by-step progression for the statics, but I can lay out the information that is already out there. I will also make a video on how to perform an effective pre-hab warm up, because I think that everyone here needs to understand that you should really be pre-habbing your entire body each warm up.

You're the man. Good luck with that test.

[AlexX]

Great thread with lots of interesting information. I would just like to present a case from a different perspective (although in this case I think slizzardman's suggestions are way more applicable for the op). I use the FSPs as strength moves in my training routine, meaning part of my workout. I use the FSPs that are way too easy and that I don't train anymore as warm-ups. I am not saying that one is better than the other, just saying that more than one method works.

[Joshua Naterman]

There are indeed multiple paths to success in just about everything.

[Erich Lin]

Coach, I have one question about that myself:

In the somewhat far future when there are a number of us here who are at the point where we are ready for high intensity static work, how will our warm up sets change? Here is a concrete example. Lets say, hypothetically, I can do a 15s straddle planche. Will I be doing 60s of straddle planche in the warm up before WODs, will I be doing slightly less total time due to the higher intensity, or will I be doing some longer holds of advanced tuck before a few straddle holds? Or is it none of those?

I was thinking that at that point it would be good to do one longer hold of the advanced tuck, like 30-40s or something, and then 3-5 straddle holds for half max as usual. Is that way off? Do you still stick to the half max rule for the higher intensity static work?

Slizzardman/coach, was there an answer to this. I haven't tested my max for advanced tuck back lever or front lever, but a few weeks back I did try a straddle back lever and I held it for like 12+ seconds or so, so I anticipate I might be at the 15 s mark. I'm still working on advanced tuck back lever but I think I will do a test to see if I'm at 60 seconds (which I believe I might be). Also, I think my advanced tuck front lever might be near that too. Thanks for any help on this So if I'm at 60 s advanced tuck back lever, that means I can begin work on straddle back lever right? Or do I need to be able to hold my straddle back lever for a certain time before I start it? Of course this begs the question of when should I progress to half lay and when should I progress to training full lay? And what should the work sets be? Should they be half max? Should they include prior progressions? It's interesting cause a couple weeks back I was able to hold a full lay back lever for 5 seconds or so already, but I'm afraid to train it based on what Slizzardman/others have said in the forums

[Joshua Naterman]

This really isn't an issue until you hit the 60s mark in advanced tuck. Make sure you have a 60s advanced tuck for at least a month or two just to be safe. At that point you *SHOULD* be ok with straddle work. I would still do one 60s advanced tuck hold at least once a week just to maintain that endurance, and use the straddle as your main training, but you may find that doing 1 set of 30s advanced tuck and then 30s total of straddle work is good for you. I don't actually know the specifics on this as very few of us are at that point in our training and this more advanced work has not come up. I will say that until you are consistently hitting a 15+s perfect straddle you should not worry about moving on to half lay. You may find that half lay is very easy, that just depends on how wide your straddle is and your personal development, but when you've got a 15s half lay AND a 15s straddle and those times have been consistent for at least 4 weeks it is probably safe to start doing a full lay hold, and slowly transition over to mostly full lay work with an advanced tuck warm up.

So, basically what you were thinking is more or less right. 3 straddle holds is probably more reasonable than 5, and I would think that if you can do 30s in 3 holds or less then that would be ideal.

Coach, if you have more specific advice here that would be great. This is shaky ground for me.

[Erich Lin]

Thanks Slizzardman!

I'll have to test my advanced tuck back lever. I honestly haven't tested a max in 2 months, so this should be interesting.

Make sure you have a 60s advanced tuck for at least a month or two just to be safe

.

Is this wait time to build more bicep tendon stuff just in case? Also, by 60 s advanced tuck for a month , do you mean do 1 set of 60 seconds every workout? or just continue what I am doing and test 1 month later again? i'm confused here.

I will say that until you are consistently hitting a 15+s perfect straddle you should not worry about moving on to half lay.

By this I'm assuming you mean 15 +s max hold time?

30s in 3 holds or less then that would be ideal.

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't go beyond 10+s sets? Kind of like normal FSP of 15s sets? I've been doing 15 second minimum hold time to start for 4 sets. Progress up 1 second each workout until I get to 30 seconds. Then retest my max. I understand this is slightly different than what others are doing and what coach suggests, but it seems to be giving me the best gains. 3 months ago, I couldn't even do a straddle back lever or even a full lay. About 3 weeks ago, I did a 12 second straddle back lever and 5 second full lay with this protocol. I have no clue where I am at now, but I will test next week or the week after depending on how I feel, but I wanted some knowledge before I begin on what to do next.

Things I'm wondering:

What should be the minimum hold time of your straddle before beginning straddle work (levers and planche, etc), half-lay, and full lay? What should be my max of the previous progression? I assume 60 s as that seems to be what the forum is suggesting.

Do I dial that minimum time down by half like normal FSP and do 60 s aggregate?

Should I continue to do previous flat tuck with straddle work? like slizzard mentioned as an example of 30 s advanced tuck /30 s straddle?

[Joshua Naterman]

Is this wait time to build more bicep tendon stuff just in case? Also, by 60 s advanced tuck for a month , do you mean do 1 set of 60 seconds every workout? or just continue what I am doing and test 1 month later again? i'm confused here.

I am not 100% sure about doing 60s each day, but I would test your absolute max and if it's like 70s then do 2 35s sets for sure.

I will say that until you are consistently hitting a 15+s perfect straddle you should not worry about moving on to half lay.

By this I'm assuming you mean 15 +s max hold time?

Yes.

Guys, I am not 100% sure about the details regarding the more advanced basic strength like straddle PL. Coach will have to hop in to give us a definitive plan, but this is why we don't really worry about any of this information until we actually need it. There are only a few people here who are hitting 15s perfect straddle planches and they are the only ones for whom this information will make any difference. This is like all the Iron Cross questions in a way. The answer doesn't matter right now because we can't use it. I want to know Coach's preferred method for handling the straddle planche to half/full lay transition as much as anyone else here, but let's be honest: None of us are going to be able to use that for a while. As for BL, I don't know if he handles that differently, but I would think that we will want to work up to at least being able to hit a weekly max of 15s perfect straddle for a month or two before we start closing the straddle or moving to half/full lay. The rest of the time we would be doing 1/2 max sets like usual.

30s in 3 holds or less then that would be ideal.

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't go beyond 10+s sets? Kind of like normal FSP of 15s sets? I've been doing 15 second minimum hold time to start for 4 sets. Progress up 1 second each workout until I get to 30 seconds. Then retest my max. I understand this is slightly different than what others are doing and what coach suggests, but it seems to be giving me the best gains. 3 months ago, I couldn't even do a straddle back lever or even a full lay. About 3 weeks ago, I did a 12 second straddle back lever and 5 second full lay with this protocol. I have no clue where I am at now, but I will test next week or the week after depending on how I feel, but I wanted some knowledge before I begin on what to do next.

I think you got confused with what I was saying. What I mean is that when it comes to training the more advanced progressions we start to shift into a strength perspective because at this point the body is handling very large forces without getting injured and we can now start to work harder. As we start working straddle BL, FL, or PL directly we are training our maximal strength to a greater degree. This higher intensity of training will require us to do less total work or to practice with less frequency. Since we are essentially expected to do our FSP each warm up I am thinking that the 60s total time will be replaced with a lower time total, just as the more advanced straddle L and L sit variations drop from 60s hold time goals to 30s. For all I know, 30s of straddle work 4 days per week is too much. This is something I will need to ask Coach.

What you are doing is similar to Pavel's cycles from PTTP and probably won't be a bad idea as long as you start again with half your max when you retest and work back up! I am not sure about the long term implications of this, but if it is working for you great!

Things I'm wondering:

What should be the minimum hold time of your straddle before beginning straddle work (levers and planche, etc), half-lay, and full lay? What should be my max of the previous progression? I assume 60 s as that seems to be what the forum is suggesting.

Do I dial that minimum time down by half like normal FSP and do 60 s aggregate?

Should I continue to do previous flat tuck with straddle work? like slizzard mentioned as an example of 30 s advanced tuck /30 s straddle?

I don't know about a minimum hold time for the straddle, because that is maximal strength work. Even the 15s max exists squarely within the CP energy system. As soon as you have maintained a 60s max for your Adv tuck for at least a month you should be ready to start easing into the straddle work. Even if you have a 4s hold, do 2s holds as long as it's a perfect position. I think that 3-4 holds like this will be plenty, more than that is just going to wear you out. Even that much may be too much. It is very surprising how little strength work it takes to boost your maximal strength.

Personally I think it's a smart idea to keep your ADV tuck work in there, but I know you're looking for other opinions on that. It is working well for those who are trying it, I know that from PMs. I do not have any idea what Coach thinks of that !

[Martin Schulz]

I strongly suggest to make this a sticky as I have learned a ton in the process of reading this thread and noticed my general flaw of pushing too hard in the FSPs (was definitely no warmup for me) and I would be more than surprised if I was the only member on this forum who did this.

This thread put clarity on the how's and why's so I think it should be read by anyone.

Just my two cents

[Gssj3]

Can someone help me? I tried to fin the meaning of "PTTP" and i can't find something about it on the internet. I want to know more about what is "PTTP"

[Alexander Svensson]

Power to the people? A training bok by Pavel I believe.