Iron Cross Training

AlexX said:

That's interesting, where are you in terms of progressions for your straight arm work? and were you actively trying to resist it?

No, I wasn't actively resisting it.

I can do half back lever and straddle front lever. Easy XR l-sit. I don't do planche because they haven't been prescribed in the WOD's for a while. I was on advanced tuck. Also, back when I did them I worked up to a advanced frog stand to the point where I felt no elbow tension with locked arms. The reason for this is that I was afraid proceed to quickly because of an old BJJ elbow injury.

slizzardman said:

LOL! I have no idea how that would be safely done. I suppose you could use force sensors and whatnot on the fulcrum and emg data on the attacker's muscles to see how hard they are working, relatively speaking, to tap each person. This would require an extremely sensitive attacker so that they dont put on too much pressure too quickly and so they quickly respond to the person in the arm bar.

I think that would do a study in such a way.

Take gymnasts and non-gymnasts who have a familiarity with the proper time to tap to an arm-bar. Or maybe if that's not possible we could give some familiarity training. We would set up a device in which the elbow is off the edge of a table. A dynamometer will be strapped to their wrist and a researcher will then slowly apply force downward and mark the point at which the subject "taps."

If straight arm training is indeed good for arm-bar prevention, then the gymnasts should tap at a greater force than those who have not done straight arm training.

We would also need to match the groups in some measure of elbow flexor strength. We should also blind the subjects to the true intention of the study.

Something to do in May. Juji gatame is not my specialty but I'm sure I can do one on anyone who wants.

We could have someone like Sliz try on Dillon and Jeff just to see the difference. Big difference regarding limb length and mass/strength.

Tell you what, I have practiced BJJ for over 5 years and I will armbar everyone that wants to try. All I ask in return is that I get the seminar fee waved. That's a fair trade off, right???!?!

HAHAHAHA!!! That would be funny.

The people at the seminar should be warned that they might not get to practice anything but standing after an armbar haha

Yes. Definitely an end of day 3 activity.

hahahaha yeah I can just see people talking about the next seminar. "Yeah it was like torture, they broke some guys arm!"

Just thought I should chime in, I have been competing in sub grappling, judo, and BJJ for 6 years now and gymnastic holds have helped my strength more than any other protocol and I havent been armbarred in a tourney or training in about 3 years solid now. Even two arms on my defending one arm, in my weight class and usually up to two above I dont get overpowered. Straight arm strength has so much carry over. I can do straddle planche on plets, flat tuck on rings, front and back levers, rings or p lets.

Hey guys and gals,

So I was doing research into this maneuver for my bio-mechanics class. The Iron cross (arm locked out) is a simple third class lever. to determine the amount of torque force needed to suspend yourself with completely locked arms extended parallel to the ground you have to take the resistance arm length times the resistance (RA*R) this must equal the amount of force times the force arm which is producing the contraction (read, where your muscles insert into the RA). For this I did a measurement of myself so I will use that as an example. At 20"RA and 4"FA and 150lbs of body weight I must produce 1500 in-lbs of torque on the shoulder to suspend my body. that translates roughly to 125 lbs of weight per arm. So to get a better idea of the strength requirements I would need to be able to hold a 125lbs dumbbell in each hand, suspended upside down and extend my arms parallel to the ground to effectively create the same ROM and resistance. THATS A LOT OF WEIGHT!

Interesting like Coach Sommer's old t-nation article though 250lbs of DB > your BW?

Of course, it's not exactly that simple either.

Blairbob said:

Interesting like Coach Sommer's old t-nation article though 250lbs of DB > your BW?

Of course, it's not exactly that simple either.

Hey Blairbob,

My BW is roughly 150lbs and yeah, if I had x-ray measurements of my arms and points of muscle insertions the math would be much more accurate. but its a good rough estimation as to the amount of strength needed for the maneuver. Ill have to read Coaches article. I haven't found much time to anything lately. How was the last workshop? sad I missed it.

JP

jpshepard said:

Hey guys and gals,

So I was doing research into this maneuver for my bio-mechanics class. The Iron cross (arm locked out) is a simple third class lever. to determine the amount of torque force needed to suspend yourself with completely locked arms extended parallel to the ground you have to take the resistance arm length times the resistance (RA*R) this must equal the amount of force times the force arm which is producing the contraction (read, where your muscles insert into the RA). For this I did a measurement of myself so I will use that as an example. At 20"RA and 4"FA and 150lbs of body weight I must produce 1500 in-lbs of torque on the shoulder to suspend my body. that translates roughly to 125 lbs of weight per arm. So to get a better idea of the strength requirements I would need to be able to hold a 125lbs dumbbell in each hand, suspended upside down and extend my arms parallel to the ground to effectively create the same ROM and resistance. THATS A LOT OF WEIGHT!

Almost every lever in our bodies is a third class lever!!! I'm just saying!

Nice calculations!!! That is, indeed, a lot of weight. Wow. Leverage, you sly, tricky woman you!!!!!!! Making me work so hard!!!

I have to say that the idea that doing an iron cross at 150lbs is equivalent to holding 125 lbs in each arm while suspended upside down seems intuitively wrong to me.  I certainly don't know how to do the math to figure it out, but I have a hard time believing the upside down dumbel holding equivalent of a cross would be any more than 50% bodyweight per arm.  That said, I definitely understand and agree that because of the length of your arm/lever you would need to output drastically more force than 50% bw at your shoulder to create the necessary force at your hand.  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to maintain a static position such as an IC doesn't the sum of the downward forces need to be identical to the pull of gravity (which would in this case be 100% bw)?  If the downward force generated by your body against the rings was greater than that of gravity you would travel up and do a cross pull, if it was less you would continue to sink down to a hang.  

If your math is right I think there must be some factors that you are leaving out of the equation like the inward pull of the rings created when you push them outside of the point from which they are fixed at the top of the straps.  Also possibly the help of the reduced flexibility most people have in their shoulders when they roll forward to do a cross.

Marlon said:

I have to say that the idea that doing an iron cross at 150lbs is equivalent to holding 125 lbs in each arm while suspended upside down seems intuitively wrong to me.  I certainly don't know how to do the math to figure it out, but I have a hard time believing the upside down dumbel holding equivalent of a cross would be any more than 50% bodyweight per arm.  That said, I definitely understand and agree that because of the length of your arm/lever you would need to output drastically more force than 50% bw at your shoulder to create the necessary force at your hand.  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to maintain a static position such as an IC doesn't the sum of the downward forces need to be identical to the pull of gravity (which would in this case be 100% bw)?  If the downward force generated by your body against the rings was greater than that of gravity you would travel up and do a cross pull, if it was less you would continue to sink down to a hang.  

If your math is right I think there must be some factors that you are leaving out of the equation like the inward pull of the rings created when you push them outside of the point from which they are fixed at the top of the straps.  Also possibly the help of the reduced flexibility most people have in their shoulders when they roll forward to do a cross.

It does seem like half BW per hand would be the formula, but I don't know all the specifics of that equation. Because of the difference in location of the actual load the force required could be substantially different, at least in theory.

Marlon said:

I have to say that the idea that doing an iron cross at 150lbs is equivalent to holding 125 lbs in each arm while suspended upside down seems intuitively wrong to me.  I certainly don't know how to do the math to figure it out, but I have a hard time believing the upside down dumbel holding equivalent of a cross would be any more than 50% bodyweight per arm.  That said, I definitely understand and agree that because of the length of your arm/lever you would need to output drastically more force than 50% bw at your shoulder to create the necessary force at your hand.  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to maintain a static position such as an IC doesn't the sum of the downward forces need to be identical to the pull of gravity (which would in this case be 100% bw)?  If the downward force generated by your body against the rings was greater than that of gravity you would travel up and do a cross pull, if it was less you would continue to sink down to a hang.  

If your math is right I think there must be some factors that you are leaving out of the equation like the inward pull of the rings created when you push them outside of the point from which they are fixed at the top of the straps.  Also possibly the help of the reduced flexibility most people have in their shoulders when they roll forward to do a cross.

One would think that the force load would be a simple equation like that, however you are looking at the weight at the extended far end of the lever, as well as it is a rotational force (read torque) that you are generating, not a press. With that said, it doesn't equal "exactly" 125lbs at each. that is just an estimation with measurements taken outside of the body. As you extend the lever the amount of force must be greater to do the same work. :wink: as Ron Burgendy says " it's science."

slizzardman said:

Almost every lever in our bodies is a third class lever!!! I'm just saying!

Nice calculations!!! That is, indeed, a lot of weight. Wow. Leverage, you sly, tricky woman you!!!!!!! Making me work so hard!!!

Slizzardman,

You are correct Sir, I think we would look really REALLY scary if our bodies where configured in any other way. Dont you?

JP

Not that I think your math is wrong I just doubt that those who can hold an iron cross can hold a 125 lbs dumbbell at each side while hanging upside down. Force wise it might a good representation of it but I just don't think it would happen in a real test. Anyone who can hold an Iron Cross willing to try this? or has tried this?

That would seriously be the most awesome test ever. I'm not kidding, I am not faking enthusiasm here, I would absolutely love to know what Dillon and Gregor are able to do in the dumbbell version. I will say that I think the dumbbells will be harder in some ways, because there is no external force pushing the arms into the shoulders. Still, this would really be cool! Not that I expect it to happen, I mean it isn't a very practical thing for a competitive athlete to do, but it would be so COOL! :shock: 8) :twisted:

Would the dumbell test be the same as doing crosses with weight plates hanging from your waist/ankles? I guess it would be more accurate since you don't have to take bodyweight into consideration...but I think calculating inch-pounds is the ultimate in validity (though it would be time consuming and a little difficult...)

Erik said:

Would the dumbell test be the same as doing crosses with weight plates hanging from your waist/ankles? I guess it would be more accurate since you don't have to take bodyweight into consideration...but I think calculating inch-pounds is the ultimate in validity (though it would be time consuming and a little difficult...)

Erik,

The math is actually rather simple. You have to understand that the weight is at the end of a lever and the force arm is so close to the joint/point of rotation that it has to produce such force... if you take a wrench and place it on a bolt and then use say a string close to the head of the wrench rather than at the end of it and pull the string trying to loosen the bolt you will understand what is happening in the body. we are really not built very effectively.

Slizzardman,

RIGHT?! I mean start off light and work towards that projected number... I do agree that the rings are a bit different mechanically... maybe a cable pulley system inverted to mimic the rings would be more accurate!

JP

slizzardman said:

That would seriously be the most awesome test ever. I'm not kidding, I am not faking enthusiasm here, I would absolutely love to know what Dillon and Gregor are able to do in the dumbbell version. I will say that I think the dumbbells will be harder in some ways, because there is no external force pushing the arms into the shoulders. Still, this would really be cool! Not that I expect it to happen, I mean it isn't a very practical thing for a competitive athlete to do, but it would be so COOL! :shock: 8) :twisted:

I am never just theoretically throwing this stuff out there. I actually want all these tests to happen, the reason for my own lack of enthusiasm is I know that most won't try it

I'd do it myself now but the results aren't going to mean much since there is no way to calculate where my cross is at. Trust me when I get stronger my gym is going to be like a lab with me performing all these theoretical tests all the time The first one on the list is after I get a one armer to see how much weight I can chin with since I haven't trained weighted chins in a long time I am hoping to see somewhat of a correlation as to how much strength a one arm chin actually requires when compared to pulling with two arms. I've got plenty more of those

Me too. I can't wait to see how I perform in a variety of situations as I achieve certain bench marks! Like... How much will I be able to do cable crossovers with when I can do a cross? Is it the whole stack? Is it people standing ON the stack? Who knows? I think that would be a pretty awesome video!

I can do cable crossovers for 5-10reps with like 50kg per hand and I'm almost, if not, able to hold a cross. at 73kg bw.

For the calculations I'm aware that the muscular force will be muuuch greater than bodyweight. In fact in a simplified physics report I did we calculated the combined adductor force of each arm to be 20x bw. Using some representative tendon insertions.. However the actual upward force and downward forces should be equal and the dumbbell held should be somewhat close to ½ bw in each arm, anything else seems like miscalculations to me. When holding a dumbbell it's also at the same leverage as your body, if you had to hold 1.5x bw in each arm then you're implying that the leverage is much greater for the upside down dumbbell exercise which I don't see is true.

That is awesome! I bet that raises some eyebrows in the gym.