Megadosing vitamin C

[Razz]

While reading one of Poliquins articles I came across this

To help deal with the additional stress, I suggest you take a very good antioxidant formula and take an extra 10 grams of vitamin C a day.

See I've heard recommendations of 2 grams/day and megadosing going up to 5 grams. But never have I heard of AN EXTRA 10 grams of vitamin C, meaning doses could go up to 10-12 grams with this protocol. Would love any thoughts/studies/ experience to be shared

[John Sapinoso]

i think recall reading somewhere about intravenous vitamin c as well, was that the same article?

[Razz]

No I don't think that's the same article but I believe I've read that before aswell

[Neal Winkler]

How many supplements do you need?

[Razz]

HAHA don't worry this one is just out of interest always trying to expand my knowledge you know

[gymgreg]

An interesting blog post by Steven Novella: http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2116

Check the part on Linus Pauling:

Linus Pauling

There are historical and recent examples to illustrate these principles. Most famous, perhaps, is Linus Pauling who won two Nobel Prizes: the Nobel prize for chemistry in 1954, and then the Nobel Peace Prize in 1963 for his activism against nuclear weapons. Pauling was a brilliant researcher, of that there is no doubt. But later in life he descended into quackery, advocating for megadoses of Vitamin C to fight off infections, including the common cold. This was part of his broader support for “orthomolecular medicine†– a term he coined. According to Pauling substances which occur naturally in the body can be used in high doses to prevent disease and promote health.

To me this is the perfect example of a brilliant scientist stepping outside his area of expertise and trying to apply the wrong principles to another discipline. The concept of orthomolecular medicine may make sense to a chemist, who is focused on the chemical activity of biological substances. But medical researchers are likely to find such ideas hopelessly naive (even accounting for the time period). Pauling failed to support his ideas with clinical research, and therefore failed to recognize the need to translate a basic science understanding of things like biochemistry to actual clinical applications. Despite our advancing understanding, the body is ridiculously complex and so net clinical effects need to be measured. We cannot simply extrapolate from our basic science knowledge to clinical claims, and Pauling did.

But further, the notion that if a little is good then more is better runs contrary to basic medical knowledge. For most biological functions that we care to measure there appears to be an optimal range of values, and having either too much or too little becomes progressively unhealthy. Also, evolutionary forces have conspired to put into place feedback mechanisms that keep a long list of biological parameters within an optimal range. We mess with this delicate balance at our own peril.

So while Pauling was a brilliant chemist, he was not aware of the risk vs benefit approach central to medical decision making, displayed a lack of humility in extrapolating basic science knowledge to clinical claims, and went against certain hard-won bits of biological wisdom. The result was pure crankery, but backed by the authority of a Nobel Laureate.

[roman]

Vitamin C mega-Dosing is a clinically tested method of overcoming illness and also increasing your recovery from workouts. The bowel tolerance theory developed and tested by Dr. Robert Cathcart is a great way of determining just how much Vitamin C your body requires.

The premise is very simple: Start increasing your intake of Vitamin C gradually. Say you take 500mg/day, try taking 1,000mg/day. Continue to increase the dosage until you start showing symptoms of gas or diarrhea. This is your body's way of telling you that it doesn't need any more Vitamin C and that it's rejecting it. So once this happens you stop taking any more, and you've established your body's needs of Vitamin C at the level that you stopped. For some this can be after 2,000mg, for some after 10,000mg etc.

The body's need for Vitamin C increases dramatically in the presence of disease, so for example while a sick person can take up to 10-20 grams of Vitamin C per day when he's very ill, that same person will not be able to take the same amount when he's healthy without getting serious diarrhea. It all depends on the toxicity and the stress that's being put on the body either from disease or other factors.

For more information I highly recommend you read the following article from Dr. Robert Cathcart on this topic of Vitamin C titration. This man was one of the pioneers in the field working with Linus Pauling amongst others, so definitely check out this article and his site as well. It talks specifically about Vitamin C dosage in the presence of disease, but the principles are the same for other cases as well where you might require mega doses of Vitamin C.

http://www.orthomed.com/titrate.htm

P.S - Dr. Cathcart worked with over 10,000 patients who he treated and successfully cured, in some cases, from serious illness, all by using mega-dosing of Vitamin C. So the claims that no clinical studies have been made are completely false and for some reason the main stream medical community refuses to look into such research. The above post about Linus Pauling claiming it's all "quackery" is just another example of this. I know from personal experience Vitamin C mega-dosing works amazingly well at overcoming illness in a very short period of time. But furthermore a qualified physician who has over the years worked with over 10,000 people with various illnesses and has documented his research and proven his theories is not something to just be dismissed out of hand like some people seem to be doing. In fact it has been proven that the body's levels of Vitamin C drop drastically in the presence of disease (done by a simple blood test), showing that Vitamin C plays a crucial part in the body's immune response, and that the body's need for it increases dramatically in such cases. So anyone claiming that this is "quackery" has to address these key points, otherwise his/hers opinion is based on nothing but ignorance and personal bias.

[Felipe]

I'm interested as well. Read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C_megadosage

IHMO the consequences of doing so are very little, so its seems reasonable to experiment with that.

I would say that megadosing c and a basic multivitamin is enough for micronutrients, no needs for zma which has too little advantages.

[Yeti]

hmmm that's real interesting news. I thought after a while you would just pee out all the excess.

[roman]

hmmm that's real interesting news. I thought after a while you would just pee out all the excess.

That is also correct; but what many people don't realize is that the body's need for Vitamin C changes depending on the amount of stress that is put on the body, weather it being from disease, or from strenuous exercise. You can read in some sources that anything more than 500mg gets discarded in urine. But that is completely untrue. At times you can take more than 10 grams/day and your body will utilize every molecule of vitamin C to heal and recover. The most accurate way of determining how much Vitamin C your body requires at any given time is Dr. Robert Cathcart's Bowel Tolerance method (a link to which I provided above).

[Joshua Naterman]

I would like to point out that the quote from Steve Novella never explicitly states that there has been research to DISPROVE the hypothesis of vitamin C 'mega-dosing' to be non-beneficial. If you make the statements into a logical equation, and just switch vitamin C with vitamin D, you would actually create a false statement, since what you would write would read along the lines of "just because vitamin D is biologically active in the absorption and retention of bone minerals and other important biological processes doesn't mean that taking higher than recommended doses of vitamin D will be beneficial. In fact, medical researchers would likely think this to be naive."

In reality-land, far away from the opinions column, vitamin D is starting to become well-known as a single nutrient that is absolutely vital for health. Why then, without substantial replicated and peer-reviewed evidence to prove that "megadosing" of vitamin C is NOT healthy or effective in whatever situations, are people painting those who maintain this to be a healthy practice as lunatics? I want to remind everyone of the opinions thrown around on dietary fats and what most of us here now know to be true versus what we have been told by "medical researchers" for 60 years. The simple premise that natural fats from animals that eat natural diets are incredibly healthy is supported by over 100 years of consistent, replicated case studies as well as longitudinal and laboratory experiments, and even THAT is still struggling to gain acceptance. It is a sad state of affairs, in my eyes, when we can be so reasonable with one nutrient and so unreasonable with another when the exact same statement is made for both. Until there is a good bundle of research that can show consistently that vitamin C "megadosing" is either harmful or non-beneficial for pretty much everyone, an open mind educated by the available research, which is completely undecided as a body, should prevail.

Also, as Roman says, you shouldn't ignore the enormous success of a doctor who has consistently used a certain treatment just because no other doctors use it. Look at Poliquin. Regardless of what your personal opinion of his sanity is, no one here can deny that he has and continues to produce and/or improve some of the finest athletes on the planet. He does things NO ONE ELSE does. Why isn't everyone looking at these practices and trying to combine the finest of what various coaches are doing?

I guess it is easier to just rain down disparaging comments and opinions.

This paragraph is a little out of place, but I am tired so bear with me. The "complex feedback mechanisms that conspire together to keep a long list of biological parameters within an optimal range" are responsible for bone and tooth mineral loss in those with acidosis conditions. They are responsible for allowing the body to function on absolutely zero carbs OR on 100% carbs. They are almost certainly able to handle someone eating a few extra oranges (that's a subtle reference to a few extra grams of vitamin C), and they are also capable of damaging the long-term health of the body through their efforts to keep us sexually and physically viable in the short term. That [comment by Steve] was kind of a small-minded and unscientific thing to say.

[roman]

Good points slizzardman!

[irongymnast]

I've noticed that the more I drink a lot of natural orange juices, the more I become obsessed with it. Does this happen to anyone else?

[Joshua Naterman]

I don't now about obsessed, but the natural unconcentrated juices taste the best to me.

On a side note, I have literally just had my first taste of unrefined virgin coconut oil, and all I can say is I'm ordering a gallon of it. This stuff is incredibly good.

[Gittit Shwartz]

Some people actually advocate vitamin C "flushing", i.e. taking it beyond bowel tolerance. I used to take up to 40 grams of vitamin C in a day when I had mono. I can't say whether it helped or not but definitely supplement with extra minerals (magnesium, zinc, potassium) if you try it to make up for what you lost.