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Kiyoshi

Planche assistance

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Alexander Moreen

Remember for the planche your hands have to be the center of gravity for your body. Which means as you extend your body to more advanced positions you have to lean forward more and more. Only do planche leans far enough forward that you can hold I for at least 15 seconds. Ppp will only help with the strength for planche pushups not with the planche itself. Watch slizzardmans planche lean video its stickied for a reason. Also DL is a deadlift.

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Joshua Naterman

Kiyoshi: You have decent strength, at this point gains will be slower because your nervous system has now learned the position of planche and future strength gains will be primarily through increases in efficiency and increases in contractile fibers. All that takes much longer than initial motor learning, so expect things to slow down. It happens to ALL of us.

Don't stop doing PPP. Those are great practice and will ensure that you have strength through the planche push up ROM. The planche leans can help, but I don't recommend using them the way Lavastine has suggestedvery often, if at all. On the surface it seems like a good idea, but in reality it is asking for trouble. That's high intensity work in a low leverage position, with the major tension being on the bicep tendon. That's a very easy way to build up tendonitis. I would suggest continuing to work the 6 FSP in a balanced fashion, and to start doing that at once if you haven't already.

If you're doing 6x20s for tuck planche with perfect form, what is your perfect form max? 40s? I wouldn't work on extending into advanced tuck for a while, at least until you're at a true 60s tuck planche. To get there you need two things: Balanced static work and balanced kinetic work. You need to be working your front and back halves equally, and in each plane of motion. The WODs are honestly the best way to pull this off. That is going to get you there the fastest, and will do so without hurting you, as long as you scale properly.

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Kiyoshi

I can hold a tuck planche really well by now, and I want to start progressing to flat tuck slowly.

Every time I pull my knees back i cant maintain the tuck. My hips are shoulder height, and my knees are basically tucked into my chest, I want to start getting my knees into the flat tuck position. How do I go about doing this? What are the methods to progress from tuck to flat tuck. Because, I know its not just from being able to do it for 60 secs since I can almost do that. Do I just start doing many reps of a 1 sec flat tuck? and that will improve it? holding it from a wall for assitance? or just every week bringing my knees back a little bit further?

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Tarun Suri

I know this is further back in the thread, but on the note of the back lever, I was under the impression that the fruits of the back lever goes over to the planche only during straddle and further progressions. Was I misinformed?

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Kiyoshi

Nobody went into much detail about how much the back lever assisted the planche. I am interested in knowing too

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Joshua Naterman

BL helps for a couple reasons. The straddle and half/full lay positions definitely help with beginning to condition the lower and mid back, but even the earlier versions play an important role in biceps tendon conditioning and maintaining active flexibility in the shoulders. There's probably more that I can't think of right now, but those are a few reasons that proper back lever work is really important.

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Kiyoshi
BL helps for a couple reasons. The straddle and half/full lay positions definitely help with beginning to condition the lower and mid back, but even the earlier versions play an important role in biceps tendon conditioning and maintaining active flexibility in the shoulders. There's probably more that I can't think of right now, but those are a few reasons that proper back lever work is really important.

So If I can hold a full back lever 10+ sec, I should be able to do a flat tuck?

Can you all answer the post before this question? about how to go to flat tuck

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Gregor
BL helps for a couple reasons. The straddle and half/full lay positions definitely help with beginning to condition the lower and mid back, but even the earlier versions play an important role in biceps tendon conditioning and maintaining active flexibility in the shoulders. There's probably more that I can't think of right now, but those are a few reasons that proper back lever work is really important.

So If I can hold a full back lever 10+ sec, I should be able to do a flat tuck?

Can you all answer the post before this question? about how to go to flat tuck

Not neccsesarly... Depends where you lack in strength :arrow: every chain with a weak link is a weak chain.

Back lever can help you alot or minimal depends where your weak link is. If you are beginner then will have tramendious effect.

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Joshua Naterman

I already have answered everything pertaining to planche development through flat tuck. It's pretty simple: Don't move on until you have a PERFECT 60s hold in what you're training. Don't train any progression that you can't at least hold for 15-20s. Do the WODs so that you hit all your muscles from every possible angle. Do your FSP as warm up. That's seriously it. It takes time. The bigger you are, the longer it takes, but it never comes quickly.

Everyone keeps talking about that one guy on youtube who got his planche push ups in 6 months. He can't hold a planche for squat. His static is garbage. I am willing to bet that he probably can't even hold a proper straddle planche. It takes a LONG time to build that. The bent arm strength is much easier to work up to than the static, because the static is at the very hardest part of the planche ROM.

You have to stop looking at other people and start looking at yourself and whether you have holes in your plan. I've just given you the entire plan.

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Kiyoshi
I already have answered everything pertaining to planche development through flat tuck. It's pretty simple: Don't move on until you have a PERFECT 60s hold in what you're training. Don't train any progression that you can't at least hold for 15-20s. Do the WODs so that you hit all your muscles from every possible angle. Do your FSP as warm up. That's seriously it. It takes time. The bigger you are, the longer it takes, but it never comes quickly.

Everyone keeps talking about that one guy on youtube who got his planche push ups in 6 months. He can't hold a planche for squat. His static is garbage. I am willing to bet that he probably can't even hold a proper straddle planche. It takes a LONG time to build that. The bent arm strength is much easier to work up to than the static, because the static is at the very hardest part of the planche ROM.

You have to stop looking at other people and start looking at yourself and whether you have holes in your plan. I've just given you the entire plan.

I can almost hold it for 60 secs, but I was wondering on how to progress into flat tuck. lets say, I have a good 60 sec flat tuck how would I move into flat tuck?

I wasnt talking about the guy on youtube either, I dont know why you brought that up. Im just wondering about the mechanics of going into flat tuck. I guess i will have to ask someone else. but thanks

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Joshua Naterman

I can almost hold it for 60 secs, but I was wondering on how to progress into flat tuck. lets say, I have a good 60 sec flat tuck how would I move into flat tuck?

I wasnt talking about the guy on youtube either, I dont know why you brought that up. Im just wondering about the mechanics of going into flat tuck. I guess i will have to ask someone else. but thanks

A lot of people bring him up, and I didn't know what may have been influencing you.

Right now, get that 60s tuck. Once you have that, do your flat tuck max hold. When you try that, you will find that you have to move your hands a little bit closer to your hips. You literally want to kind of pretend that you are sitting up straight in a chair. So in the tuck you should be relatively hunched up and curved in the back, and as you flatten out it will be like going from a crunch to a flat back. As you do this, you will find that your feet fall down if you don't move your hands closer to your hips, and you'll do that by "leaning forward" into the planche. Just remember: the first thing to do is really nail that 60s. You're doing great, being close to 60s is very strong!

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Tarun Suri
I already have answered everything pertaining to planche development through flat tuck. It's pretty simple: Don't move on until you have a PERFECT 60s hold in what you're training. Don't train any progression that you can't at least hold for 15-20s.

I can perform frogstand for 60s. But advance frogstand for only 6s. What's interesting is that I can do a straight arm tuck with knees outside elbows (not resting on them) and tuck planche for 6s also. There seems to be a disconnect. Do you have any suggestions?

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Joshua Naterman

I am in a similar position, quite honestly, so I will share what has been working for me. You may have to tweak this a bit, but I don't think so.

The frogstand is completely different from the advanced frog. As far as I am aware, the frogstand is there to get your wrists used to holding your weight. The Adv frog is there to get your elbows used to it, it isn't all that much harder on the wrists. So right now you are dealing with the beginnings of biceps tendon conditioning and also the beginning of your body getting strong in this low-leverage position.

When I train my advanced frog, I do it for a block of time. 30s fingers forward, 30s fingers back. I don't care if that 30s is 2 15s sets or 1 30s set, I do it however it comes. After hard dynamic press days I am doing like 3 sets of 12 seconds, and when we haven't killed the pressing for a week I am doing 30s easily in one set. You can't expect to perform exactly the same from day to day, but there should be overall trends in performance and they should be a trend of performance increasing in each circumstance.

For me, the FSP warm up has been key. It forces me to stay in the rhythm of consistently working all the statics since I do all 6 at my ability level. You and I are both way too early in the progressions to try and approach them with high intensity so we need to focus on the 50% of max time sets and let our WODs build the majority of our muscular strength. Remember, you'll most likely see your big strength jumps every 6-8 weeks and that is because the muscle regeneration cycle takes that long. Not healing, but actual tissue adaptation and new tissue generation. That's totally different from recovery between two workouts. Of course, everyone is different, and you may not see all your jumps at the same time. Your planche may all of a sudden get easier one week, and three weeks later your FL may seem to make a lot of progress. Everything will advance as long as you are putting in consistent work on all the basics, which means that FSP warm up, stretching, and correctly balancing maximal strength, dynamic strength and higher rep work for each plane of motion AND the multiplanar movements. It sounds like a lot, and it is. That's why the WODs are great, you don't have to think about it. You just have to DO it, and all of that is worked in.

Regardless of WOD participation you still need to include all those elements if you're going to expect the best and most consistent gains. I can not even begin to guess at what rate your gains will come, but they will come.

I have also been focusing very heavily on scapular retraction and depression, and I believe this will remain a primary focus for the rest of my life. I am simply getting far too much out of it to think that it is anything less than absolutely essential for upper body strength. I work elevation and protraction too, but the retraction and depression seem to be what are most neglected. Overall, if your scapular movements are strong then YOU are strong, and if they aren't then you aren't.

You may also find that a 60s hollow planche lean does a lot of good for you. You should make sure that it is easy enough that you NEVER feel it in the biceps tendon. Ever. That's a part of my warm up.

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Kiyoshi

I can almost hold it for 60 secs, but I was wondering on how to progress into flat tuck. lets say, I have a good 60 sec flat tuck how would I move into flat tuck?

I wasnt talking about the guy on youtube either, I dont know why you brought that up. Im just wondering about the mechanics of going into flat tuck. I guess i will have to ask someone else. but thanks

A lot of people bring him up, and I didn't know what may have been influencing you.

Right now, get that 60s tuck. Once you have that, do your flat tuck max hold. When you try that, you will find that you have to move your hands a little bit closer to your hips. You literally want to kind of pretend that you are sitting up straight in a chair. So in the tuck you should be relatively hunched up and curved in the back, and as you flatten out it will be like going from a crunch to a flat back. As you do this, you will find that your feet fall down if you don't move your hands closer to your hips, and you'll do that by "leaning forward" into the planche. Just remember: the first thing to do is really nail that 60s. You're doing great, being close to 60s is very strong!

lol thanks, but I cant even hold a flat tuck for like more than 1 sec. So should I do 60, 1 sec holds lol

do you think that wall holds are good? because when I do them correctly they seem to be really helpful. I also still do PPP , and now they become very easy. I used to have trouble doing 3 x 10 good form PPP now I can do that without much trouble. So how could I make my PPP more effective? Raise my legs onto object?

Ok so flat tuck, its hands closer to hip, lean forward more. Since my knees are pulled in tight to my chest, should I loosen them so they are easier to move and let me knees fall so I can pull them back more? And for making progress in flat tuck, should I try to gradually increase how far back my knees are each week?

But I'll keep working on tuck planche till i get that 60 sec. Thanks :D

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Joshua Naterman

I don't know about progressing each week, but that is one way to do it. If you DO choose that route, make sure you stick with the exact same volume and that your only change is knee position. That will be enough all by itself for a long time! When you flatten out your knees will definitely come away from the chest a lot. It is totally ok to just flatten and pull the knees away a little at a time!

It sounds like you may just need to get a feel for the position, because if you're pretty close to 60s then you probably have the strength, at least in your arms. You may need lower back and scapular work, but if you're doing the WODs and all the statics you should be building all the strength you need there.

As for your PPP, I'd put your feet up on something AND put your hands on something. If you pad the floor with couch cushions I'd suggest chairs, with a higher chair for your feet so that you can keep a good hollow position and not whack the floor with your face halfway down! When you get to where those are easy, that's actually a good thing. See how they are a pretty easy step along the way to planche push ups? They will start being your warm up before the real work on WODs, whether you perform our WODs or your own program.

Remember that you're better off progressing to something more difficult like tuck planche push ups(if you can) and using the PPP for a warm up that you are trying to make the PPP more difficult. That's what you do to a primary element, not a prep element. I suppose that if PPP are easy and tuck planche push ups are too hard to perform correctly then you should perhaps add 1-2 lbs at the waist, but you don't want to concentrate on weighted PPP if you can do tuck planche push ups. They'll give you a much better return on your training time.

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Alexander Moreen

I take it, kiyoshi, that you can do at least a flat tuck back lever? The way you go from regular tuck to flat tuck in a back lever is a mirror of how you do it in a planche. You close your shoulder angle(bring your hands closer to your hips) and extend your back at the same time and rate since you have to keep balanced over your hands. That means it will feel as if you are leaning forward more. Practice going from regular tuck to flat tuck in back levers and think about what each part of your body is doing as you do it, concentrate on your hand and shoulder movement and then take that and apply it to planche training. You could also have somebody spot your from the front to let you feel more comfortable leaning forward.

You say that pop 3x10 have become easy for you. How far forward are you leaning in them(at the bottom of each rep where are your hands in relation to your hips)?

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Kiyoshi
I don't know about progressing each week, but that is one way to do it. If you DO choose that route, make sure you stick with the exact same volume and that your only change is knee position. That will be enough all by itself for a long time! When you flatten out your knees will definitely come away from the chest a lot. It is totally ok to just flatten and pull the knees away a little at a time!

It sounds like you may just need to get a feel for the position, because if you're pretty close to 60s then you probably have the strength, at least in your arms. You may need lower back and scapular work, but if you're doing the WODs and all the statics you should be building all the strength you need there.

As for your PPP, I'd put your feet up on something AND put your hands on something. If you pad the floor with couch cushions I'd suggest chairs, with a higher chair for your feet so that you can keep a good hollow position and not whack the floor with your face halfway down! When you get to where those are easy, that's actually a good thing. See how they are a pretty easy step along the way to planche push ups? They will start being your warm up before the real work on WODs, whether you perform our WODs or your own program.

Remember that you're better off progressing to something more difficult like tuck planche push ups(if you can) and using the PPP for a warm up that you are trying to make the PPP more difficult. That's what you do to a primary element, not a prep element. I suppose that if PPP are easy and tuck planche push ups are too hard to perform correctly then you should perhaps add 1-2 lbs at the waist, but you don't want to concentrate on weighted PPP if you can do tuck planche push ups. They'll give you a much better return on your training time.

Yeah, I just tested my tuck planche hold, I had to count the time in Mississippis and I got 40 secs until my wrists hurt too much. But my mississippi is slower than an actual second so I would guess its actually closer to the 45-50 range. Yeah I do all the statics, I will try to do WOD too.

So to move to flat tuck, I guess I should slowly loosen my knees and pull it back just a little bit each time. Do you think there will be much benefit in doing many sets of 1 sec holds in flat tuck?

I can do tuck planche pushups, I have been for awhile. I do them with chairs, so that I hold a tuck planche between/ above the chairs and do a dipping/pushup kind of movement. Is that how you suppose to do them? and is that the best way? I can also do them on the ground, but I dont feel like I get as much ROM as I do with the chairs. I did 3x5 today, they werent that hard. I actually had a weight vest thats 45lb and I could do 10 PPP with it on in one set. This was a while ago though.

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Kiyoshi
I take it, kiyoshi, that you can do at least a flat tuck back lever? The way you go from regular tuck to flat tuck in a back lever is a mirror of how you do it in a planche. You close your shoulder angle(bring your hands closer to your hips) and extend your back at the same time and rate since you have to keep balanced over your hands. That means it will feel as if you are leaning forward more. Practice going from regular tuck to flat tuck in back levers and think about what each part of your body is doing as you do it, concentrate on your hand and shoulder movement and then take that and apply it to planche training. You could also have somebody spot your from the front to let you feel more comfortable leaning forward.

You say that pop 3x10 have become easy for you. How far forward are you leaning in them(at the bottom of each rep where are your hands in relation to your hips)?

yeah I can do a full lay BL for 10 sec. Alright, I thought about that idea before but I will give it a try. Pop ? you mean PPP?

yeah I lean forward alot, I'm on the edge of my toes when I do them, my hands are like a few inches from my hip I guess at most.

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Alexander Moreen

Your hips are not dropping during the pushing motion correct? You should stay in your tuck planche position as you move up and down. Otherwise, yes thats how you do them and they aren't that hard.

I did mean ppp, I was posting from my phone and it auto corrected to pop I guess.

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Tarun Suri
I am in a similar position, quite honestly, so I will share what has been working for me. You may have to tweak this a bit, but I don't think so.

The frogstand is completely different from the advanced frog. As far as I am aware, the frogstand is there to get your wrists used to holding your weight. The Adv frog is there to get your elbows used to it, it isn't all that much harder on the wrists. So right now you are dealing with the beginnings of biceps tendon conditioning and also the beginning of your body getting strong in this low-leverage position.

When I train my advanced frog, I do it for a block of time. 30s fingers forward, 30s fingers back. I don't care if that 30s is 2 15s sets or 1 30s set, I do it however it comes. After hard dynamic press days I am doing like 3 sets of 12 seconds, and when we haven't killed the pressing for a week I am doing 30s easily in one set. You can't expect to perform exactly the same from day to day, but there should be overall trends in performance and they should be a trend of performance increasing in each circumstance.

For me, the FSP warm up has been key. It forces me to stay in the rhythm of consistently working all the statics since I do all 6 at my ability level. You and I are both way too early in the progressions to try and approach them with high intensity so we need to focus on the 50% of max time sets and let our WODs build the majority of our muscular strength. Remember, you'll most likely see your big strength jumps every 6-8 weeks and that is because the muscle regeneration cycle takes that long. Not healing, but actual tissue adaptation and new tissue generation. That's totally different from recovery between two workouts. Of course, everyone is different, and you may not see all your jumps at the same time. Your planche may all of a sudden get easier one week, and three weeks later your FL may seem to make a lot of progress. Everything will advance as long as you are putting in consistent work on all the basics, which means that FSP warm up, stretching, and correctly balancing maximal strength, dynamic strength and higher rep work for each plane of motion AND the multiplanar movements. It sounds like a lot, and it is. That's why the WODs are great, you don't have to think about it. You just have to DO it, and all of that is worked in.

Regardless of WOD participation you still need to include all those elements if you're going to expect the best and most consistent gains. I can not even begin to guess at what rate your gains will come, but they will come.

I have also been focusing very heavily on scapular retraction and depression, and I believe this will remain a primary focus for the rest of my life. I am simply getting far too much out of it to think that it is anything less than absolutely essential for upper body strength. I work elevation and protraction too, but the retraction and depression seem to be what are most neglected. Overall, if your scapular movements are strong then YOU are strong, and if they aren't then you aren't.

You may also find that a 60s hollow planche lean does a lot of good for you. You should make sure that it is easy enough that you NEVER feel it in the biceps tendon. Ever. That's a part of my warm up.

It would be very interesting to see these trends. I'm far too new to advance frogstand to have noticed them yet. When you perform your blocks of time, I assume you are not using the 50% method since your 1 set hold time changes? I'm wondering if you're telling me to stay away from the 50% intensity model for adv. frogs. purposes or whether I'm somehow supposed to combine both.

Also, I keep seeing the benefits of scapular retraction (and all of it's similar movements). I'm going to add a set of Prone I, T, Y stability pulls on an incline bench for a while and see how that goes.

I've been doing 3x20s planche leans. I've been very moderate on them. If ever I feel anything at all on the elbows I immediately reduce the lean. I'm surprised to see just how much I've actually progressed in such little time. However, I've always aimed to do them with a neutral lumbar curve. Why the hollow?

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Joshua Naterman

The hollow is necessary for later skills like maltese and whatnot apparently, and is also essential for proper handstand. It seems that a well conditioned athlete (meaning good flexibility and strength together) should be able to hold a hollow position with a straight body. Look at Gregor's maltese in his competition videos, it's pretty crazy how straight he is. Notice the hips.

A hollow is very different from a rounded back, they are not mutually inclusive.

I can hold a 60s advanced frog when I'm not super worn down, but it's not perfect. 40s is probably perfect, so you can see that I actually do stay right there in my 50% range. My issue is usually not strength, but after those crazy dip workouts I always fall after like 15 seconds. That doesn't matter, what matters is that from month to month my time after those dip workouts improves! As long as that happens, as long as I compare my best days to my best days and my worst days to my worst days and see improvement between both sets I am progressing.

Kiyoshi: Go for some higher reps. You're keeping your hips level with your shoulders the whole ROM during the tuck planche push ups? Work up to sets of 10 and then once a week do weighted sets with 5 reps. You'll want the weight centered over your hands if possible to keep your center of gravity the same, so you may need to unload the upper half of the vest if you can do that. If not, maybe just use a weightlifting belt with a short chain or just drape the vest over your lower and mid back instead of wearing it on your chest. Nothing wrong with doing one set of these as warm up, doing the heavy set or two on maximal strength days like rings and doing your higher reps on dynamic push and pull days. That should lead to some pretty good progress, but ease into that if you decide to follow that route.

I will suggest that you practice a set of Bulgarian body rows in your warm up, especially if you start doing more tuck planche push ups. As you press and hollow more you must work even harder to maintain balance in your scapular retractors! That's the way to avoid injury. Try to keep up with your shoulder mobility and flexibility also. It's no fun to be super strong AND super inflexible!

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Tarun Suri

Looked into it a bit. I'll do some hollow holds a few times a week. When those get stable, I'll incorporate hollow rocks. I love these forums.

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Kiyoshi

Ive been working harder on my planche progressions recently and I have found a few good exercises.

I do the static holds , 3x 22 sec (tuck) then after that I do planche leans off the edge of my bed and I lift one foot and put almost all the weight onto my arms so its like a real planche. Also try jumping into a full planche. Then I do wall holds , same idea I try putting the least amount of pressure against the wall by only using one leg and on my toes. These actually I feel help more in increasing maximal strength than just holding statics normally. Because I could feel alot more strain through my arms than I do just holding a tuck planche.

Let me know what you think . I think these exercises will help you improve your planche.

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Joshua Naterman

Wall planches are in the book, along with how to incorporate them for maximal results.

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Kiyoshi
Wall planches are in the book, along with how to incorporate them for maximal results.

Ive seen them in the book, but I do mine a bit differently . I thought I would share. Where does it tell us how to incorporate them for maixmal results? he only tells what the exercise is and how to do it.

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