Ground rows - WOW

Interesting thread, and some good information. I don't recall doing ground rows in F1 a few years back, I thought PE1 was hinge rows. 5 x 10 of those were....enlightening. And mastery now is 5x5.

@Michael Knight's suggestion of using more advanced elements to progress is a good one: I've been stuck on FL/PE5 for a while, yet PE13 is easy. The mobility is what kills, though.

I can see the benefit of sticking to an exercise for longer than you would usually.  I'm just so surprised how it is a real stumbling block.  Totally shows how poor my rowing is.

Focusing on it has a certainly helped my grip - but i wonder how many skip the standard.  

why was the rep count increased?  What's the rationale?

From what I gather, most people was stuck on hinge rows so they swapped them with grounds rows and now both reps and set schemes have changed.

I can't see why hinge rows would go to 5x5 when it's fairly easy once you master the mechanics of it.

Also guys from gymnasticbodies that have moved on to higher level work did it the first way round and didn't get injured.....

So my guess would be don't sweat the rows as much as they say. get good at them but don't think 75 reps is the key, your elbows won't fall out if you move on at say 5x10 or even 3x10. it's not like your going from a ground row to iron cross lol. 

Also just look at the follow along video to prove perfect form over 75 reps is unnecessary, these guys are working at a higher level but can't do it themselves.... Remember your endurance will increase with strenght anyway. If you've been rowing 30 plus reps a week for months on end of say your joints have conditioned enough to maybe play around with a different pull variation.

Just looping right back to your initial post @Leigh Kettle.

You said that you were doing 9r,9r,9r,5r or 6r, so I'm just wondering what you'll gain by going to 10x3r?

I'm only speculating because we're all fascinated by this topic as well.

But I'm wondering whether if you are as close to completing a certain level as you are, doesn't it feel more 'right' to try to maintain the number of correct sets that you are doing, and add more volume at the end? So don't you want to be doing something like 9r,9r,9r,6r,5r,4r...or whatever? Of course, those final sets will possibly be lower quality, but hey, those are extra sets anyway. I would have thought the key thing is to keep the quality reps at the front.

So on HBP/PE2 I wasn't making any progress on 4x12r, until I added 2 extra sets to the end. I had originally been doing a session of 12r,12r,12r,8r and then just calling it a day after failing on that last set. Some days I'd make 9r in the last set, and some days just 6r.

But I never seemed to progress, even after focusing on getting my technique spot on.

When I added 2 more sets, it gave me sessions such as 12r,12r,12r,8r,6r,4r.

Today my session was 12r,12r,12r,10r,9r,8r, so you can see that (a) the all-important 4th set is getting closer to 12r, but also (b) there is more 'in the tank' in those 'extra' sets, and I'm hoping that means when I do move up a level I won't go straight back down again a week later....

(Another way to look at it is that after the first 3 'proper' sets of 3x12r I am now doing an extra 27r (10r+9r+8r); when I first added the extra 2 sets I was doing an extra 18r after the 'proper' sets (8r+6r+4r)...but if I was to only do 4 sets then I'd only be doing 8r after the 3x12r! Easy to see why progress would be very slow week on week.)

I've been doing the same with sPL/PE5 (I'm currently doing 6x12s instead of 4x12s) and RC/PE1 (currently on 6x15r instead of 5x15r).

One last thing I like about this approach is that it keeps everything to one session. Along with focusing on technique, I had tried adding an extra UB session, but then I found that I'd lose a stretch or HS. So I tried just doing extra sessions of HBP, but because they were 'extras' they would often get sacrificed if I was too busy (or didn't get out of bed early enough ;)). With the approach here I've found that I get the whole 'extra load' done in my usual UB session and then I can forget about it for a week.

I'm enjoying reading how people are approaching plateaus so look forward to hearing what people think.

Hey mark 

this is an interesting thought 

however I have been “close” to achieving 4x9 for a very long time but always felt my arms giving out at almost the same point every time. - sometimes even on the 3rd set - 

i tried your approach of adding the sets to the end but again this didn’t work for me as I was only able to Complete 2 reps at a time because of severe arm fatigue - this has been addressed earlier in this thread mentioning I need to really focus more on the parts My lats  play which we all know should be the main part 

these quality “lat focused” lower reps where the idea for me. Tonight I completed 10 x 4 easily again after already competing 10x2 10x3 easily which I thought I would - but this time every rep focusing on the contraction and parts my last are playing  - I’m feeling very strong in these lower reps however the jury is out whether this will work for me when my reps increase and endurance become a a factor but I’m willing to give it a go after being stuck for so long 

will keep you guys posted for sure 

Leigh 

Yes, fair point. I'm looking forward to hearing how you get on.

I'd be interested to know why this tends to be so tough.  What is mechanically making it tough for the average adult whose athletic.

@Leigh Kettle how are your rows progressing with the higher sets?  I've now hit 10 sets of 5 and will increase to sets of 6 next week (though I may have a deload week as I'm feeling a little fried from work).

Hey Paul 

I’m comfortably working 10 x 4 so next  week starting tomorrow I’m moving up to 10x 5 

thought it best rather than just move on to 10x5 stick for couple of weeks at 10x4 And then move up (making sure it felt comfortable  every time) - it does now so as I say tomorrow moving up 

looking forwards to doing my test of 9x4 again whenever that time may be - be interesting to see if this has helped as it does you 

glad you are moving up well and yes those deloads can definitely help if you feel it’s needed 

many thanks again  

Hey @Paul Bassett

i avhieved 10 x 5r tonight and thought I’d let you see my form see what you think

im really focusing on my lat engagement and it really feels like it’s helping and feeling stronger 

I noticed above you said you would move up to 10x6r .. do you recommend I do (as long as you ok with my form ) or as I was stuck on 9x4 in the series  Should I stick to mastering 10x5 and then do the 9x4 retest 

thanks again for help mate 

https://youtu.be/y1LvOa9kgYA

6 hours ago, Leigh Kettle said:

Hey @Paul Bassett

i avhieved 10 x 5r tonight and thought I’d let you see my form see what you think

im really focusing on my lat engagement and it really feels like it’s helping and feeling stronger 

I noticed above you said you would move up to 10x6r .. do you recommend I do (as long as you ok with my form ) or as I was stuck on 9x4 in the series  Should I stick to mastering 10x5 and then do the 9x4 retest 

thanks again for help mate 

https://youtu.be/y1LvOa9kgYA

I have found this topic to be very interesting Leigh because I have the exact same problem. I have also been stuck on the 9x4 for like 8 months, and my arms are on fire by the end. Although I have tried to focus on my lats more as mentioned earlier by Cory and this seems to help some, my arms still burn. I have been doing sets of 6 and adding a 6th and 7th set to add volume but no progress yet. I am very curious about how your method of doing 10 sets works out for you because I will try this method if it works for you. Are you doing your 10 sets of ground rows 2x per week? Thanks, Leigh, I am excited to hear about your progress and appreciate many of your forum posts, they have been very informative for me.

Heres another cent.

The reason your arms are burning is because you're working with arms over your head so you're in the anaerobic zone and building up  lactic acid. Thats what gets the arms on fire. 

This is why you just stop with chin ups and rows, because you dont get any circulation of fresh blood. Unlike with push ups you can grind out a few more reps when you get tired...

This seems to me more of an endurance exercise than an strength one. I only did 5*10 back in the days.

17 hours ago, Leigh Kettle said:

Hey @Paul Bassett

i avhieved 10 x 5r tonight and thought I’d let you see my form see what you think

im really focusing on my lat engagement and it really feels like it’s helping and feeling stronger 

I noticed above you said you would move up to 10x6r .. do you recommend I do (as long as you ok with my form ) or as I was stuck on 9x4 in the series  Should I stick to mastering 10x5 and then do the 9x4 retest 

thanks again for help mate 

https://youtu.be/y1LvOa9kgYA

Hey @Leigh Kettle thanks for the update!

Your form looks nice and snappy and I can see before each rep you are packing the shoulders.  So from Strength Coach perspective they look tidy. 

You also don't look like you are struggling to close the last few cm.  Was that the last set of 10?

As you start to get to the higher volume sets which will be tougher to master, two thoughts:

1. next week you may want to add a couple of sets of 6 and then do the rest as sets of 5, or you could alternate 6.4,6,4 etc giving you a little recovery before the next set.

2.  You could do the classic heavy / light / medium split - you training this 3x per week?

On this you do 10 sets of 3 on a light day, sets of 5 on medium day and go all out on a heavy (you choose your progressions).

Once you get above sets of 6 you going to burn out faster - playing with recovery is key.  You may want to drop down to one upper body session a week.  I find that's sufficient for me given my workload and ability to recover.

Hey devan

thank you  for your kind words 

yes I’m currently doing the rows 2 x per week as I would my upper series - literally just substituting the relentless 4x9r attempts with the 10set routine

for sure I’ll be keepin you all informed on this thread as to how this works out for me and hopefully it can help you 

months and months stuck definitely needs addressing for us and anyone suffering lololol 

On 19/04/2018 at 2:42 PM, Paul Bassett said:

Hey @Leigh Kettle thanks for the update!

Your form looks nice and snappy and I can see before each rep you are packing the shoulders.  So from Strength Coach perspective they look tidy. 

You also don't look like you are struggling to close the last few cm.  Was that the last set of 10?

As you start to get to the higher volume sets which will be tougher to master, two thoughts:

1. next week you may want to add a couple of sets of 6 and then do the rest as sets of 5, or you could alternate 6.4,6,4 etc giving you a little recovery before the next set.

2.  You could do the classic heavy / light / medium split - you training this 3x per week?

On this you do 10 sets of 3 on a light day, sets of 5 on medium day and go all out on a heavy (you choose your progressions).

Once you get above sets of 6 you going to burn out faster - playing with recovery is key.  You may want to drop down to one upper body session a week.  I find that's sufficient for me given my workload and ability to recover.

Hey Paul 

thanksfor the form check - it wasn’t my last set but they all looking pretty much the same now 

I’m currently doing upper 2 x a week .

Ok this coming week I  will have a go at your recommendation of adding some 6r sets in . 

Just to clarify at what point do you recommend i go back and attempt my 4x9r “plateau set “??

Personally, I am looking at hitting 10x7 before retrying.  Depends how good you feel.  I think you need a little volume before retesting - those earlier progressions didn't take you long so I'm thinking you need to spend time on a rep range creeping close to what you need to achieve to move up.

Personally, I'd do one medium day and a hard day with a 2x weekly split.  One day to focus on technique and another to challenge you.  You'll need the recovery soon - 10x7 would be 70 reps.   4x9 is 36 so that's like your previous weekly total in one session.

I'm moving to the 6,4,6,4,6,4,64 etc model next - feels like interval training!  Keeps me fresh set to set.

Great advice Paul will do this then mate

love the idea of doing a medium and hard day will do this straying  this week . 

So my split is Monday and Wednesday so Monday gonna be lighter and do the heavier set Wednesday with longer to recover after it 

so Monday I’ll do 10 sets splitting 5,35,3 etc the Wednesday go for the 10x6 reps 

does that sound like a plan  ? 

Looking forward to it 

no worries looking forward to seeing how things come together!

Looking at the way you train and the issues you have with this exercise I would say that you have the strength. 

The fact you can do muscle ups etc tells me you have explosive power and a 1st gear.  I originally came from an endurance background, so I think that this is a case of lack of endurance not strength. 

From what I understand type one and two fibres are intertwined and you need both to be conditioned in this exercise.

We used to call it 'aerobic speed' in endurance training.  People make the mistake of thinking that type 1 fibres are slow.  When you can run 6 min miles for a half marathon and hold a conversation (like say Mo Farah) then you'll see they are anything but slow.

But you had to train the type 1 fibres.

I think increasing the volume by adding sets will plug this gap, because once you get to 10 plus reps it's an endurance exercise. 15x5 is beyond bodybuilding 12x3 and certainly past traditional strength training sets and reps of 3x3 or 5x3. 

So train like an endurance athlete! time on your feet as they say.

Building endurance on top of your strength and power.  For example, conor mcgregor had the power and strength but mayweather had endurance on top of power and strength.

Hope this makes sense.

Great discussion everyone. I've been feeling plateaued on hollow body rocks, among others. There was a thread where stretching was recommended, and this thread had a few ideas. Here's what I'm trying to see if I can get beyond 4 x 36.

FYI, I am doing CORE once a week.

I had no problem with 4x26, but can't get more than 2x36, and often I'm done in the 3rd round well before hitting 24 even. So I dropped down to 4x26 again and today did the following:

Twice this week, I did a 60s hold of bent position. It was crazy hard the first time, and not so hard the 2nd. I'm trying to remember to do this a few times a week during the evenings.  I'll keep doing this, and will work my way back up to 5x60s holds

CORE Workout:

Added a warmup jog

Stretches

10 dislocates

Tricep & shoulder stretch (arm across front of body) 30s / side

Pulling stretch (from the incline rows iM) 30s / side

Lunge hip flexor stretch 30s / side

standing pike 1m

Then I started 4x24. I completed 6 x 24 in excellent form. In round 7, about at 10 reps I started to lose the curve in my form. I did take a couple breaks, to complete round 7 & 8. 

I moved up again to 4x36 for next time. I'll try rep counts like this: 24, 26, 28, 36 and continue w/ perfect form for another 4 sets.

Thanks Paul 

so to clarify are you saying forget doing the medium and heavy day I mentioned and just keep adding reps to my 10 sets   as and when I complete the full 10 sets with perfect form 

so for example 

tonight I did 10 sets of 5 reps and on the tenth set failed (perfect form ) at 3 

so I will keep at this until all 10 are perfect form 

then move up to 10 x 6 and continue in this manner 

sorry if sounding thick Paul  but i was a little confused as to what you recommend I do when I asked you about my planned attack for this week

thanks again mate

No, do the medium / heavy  as planned.  I think that will just give you the best opportunity to recover each week.

As you mentioned if you feel you are likely to fail, drop the reps but stay at 10 sets.

No, do the medium / heavy as planned.  I think that will just give you the best opportunity to recover each week.

As you mentioned if you feel you are likely to fail, drop the reps but stay at 10 sets.

Ok mate will do thanks Paul 

Although I am far from reaching mastery I made good improvements these last few weeks by utilizing the 3-2-1 tempo technique which I learned from GB blog. From 4x9 I jumped up to 4x11. Using this technique also helped my pushups. I also was stuck on HBP PE2 4x10 reps for a long time but in the last few weeks I increased to 4x13.

Heres the link to the article:

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/3-2-1-slow-down-tempo-to-speed-up-gains/

Affan this is really interesting @Affan Osman

in my calisthenics days I would often do this kind of thing and the strength it built me was amazing really . I would do 1 min Pull ups 30sec up 30 sec down and slow  muscle ups etc without really thinking of it breaking plateaus as It must have done . And slow negatives too were a staple of my training 

im going to persist with Pauls method first so I can provide feedback to others on how that has worked for me and  I’m interested to find out myself of course but am definitely gonna  throw this one in to my training at some point

Thanks again mate

leigh