Ground rows - WOW

Heh guys

i appreciate there have been many posts regarding plateaus but I wonder if I could ask a quick question specific to my training 

I’ve neen stuck on ground rows for some time now - at the 4x9 round ....

I used to be able to do pull ups/muscle ups  for fun - now this rep and set range  is challenging the hell out of me - who knew 

ive tried a couple of the “plateau busting “ tips on here and kept with them but none of which have worked for me 

I read @Everett Carroll say that it is a good idea to step back a round and add a set .

in my particular circumstance that would mean me stepping back from 4x9r to 4x6r and then adding a set to make 5x6r.. this However is only 30 reps total which is less than the 36 reps I’m stuck on . Is this right? I mean that I’m now doing less volume 

As I’ve read I should be increasing volume are you suggesting I now do  7 sets of the 6 rep sets to make sure my overall volume is increased

little confused 

incidentally the 4x9 round I’m stuck on would generally look like 9,9,9,5 or 6 ... then I would fail to reach my armpits at the top of the pull so i would deem this failing 

many thanks 

Hey Leigh can you tell me please something more about the technique you used? how is structured now your programming?

Hey Alex yes sure 

I always complete ground rows fully locked arms at bottom and pull in and actually touch my armpits /chest with Palms/ring at top 

i perform upper body  2 x per week 

I used to do 3 x but progress was no better  and feel recovery at my age is better at 2 lol 

As for the plateau methods I’ve tried the doing perfect reps, then when failure occurs  , resting for ten seconds , then completing the another rep or 2 etc  in this manner then I would add a set on and complete that set in same manner 

I’ve also tried starting over with elevated rows and step one of ground rows etc 

leigh 

Hi @Leigh Kettle when you mention that your arms are fully locked at the bottom, are your lats also under stretch?

11 minutes ago, Cory Fair said:

Hi @Leigh Kettle when you mention that your arms are fully locked at the bottom, are your lats also under stretch?

Hey Cory 

i allow them to protract a littlebut then  retract (and depress) as im about  to pull to initiate the pull 

That said i think I feel burnout in the arms which stops me from completing especially after the mobility as my arms are raised they start to build lactic acid throughout the set which worsens towards the end 

For the next workout, try to feel the stretch (without sagging, maintain good position) in the lats each rep at the starting position and then focus on contracting the lats as you row. The lats are much larger muscles to row with compared to pumping the arms. Think of the arms as being along for the ride vs doing all the work. Once you are engaging the lats properly, you'll find more success in building up towards the mastery standard.

17 hours ago, Leigh Kettle said:

Heh guys

i appreciate there have been many posts regarding plateaus but I wonder if I could ask a quick question specific to my training 

I’ve neen stuck on ground rows for some time now - at the 4x9 round ....

I used to be able to do pull ups/muscle ups  for fun - now this rep and set range  is challenging the hell out of me - who knew 

ive tried a couple of the “plateau busting “ tips on here and kept with them but none of which have worked for me 

I read @Everett Carroll say that it is a good idea to step back a round and add a set .

in my particular circumstance that would mean me stepping back from 4x9r to 4x6r and then adding a set to make 5x6r.. this However is only 30 reps total which is less than the 36 reps I’m stuck on . Is this right? I mean that I’m now doing less volume 

As I’ve read I should be increasing volume are you suggesting I now do  7 sets of the 6 rep sets to make sure my overall volume is increased

little confused 

incidentally the 4x9 round I’m stuck on would generally look like 9,9,9,5 or 6 ... then I would fail to reach my armpits at the top of the pull so i would deem this failing 

many thanks 

 

Hi Leigh, I m also on 4x9 ground rows for a very long time. What I do is including a 5th set, but I don t step back to 4x6. As long as your form is correct I think it s not neccesary. So my way to go is trying to do the same reps in the last set than in the first one or a difference of just one rep less or one rep more. For example, my last workout I did 8-8-8-8-8, ground rows. So that the first set is very easy, second easy enough, third fine, fourth hard and fifth very hard. I work this way to don t be burnt from the begginning affecting too much the rest of the sets. And then I write all the sets and reps I have performed on my notebook and the next workout I try to add at least one rep TO THE LAST SET, not the first, or if i feel good one rep to the do fourth set and one to the fifth set. If I don t achieve in performing in within the set, then I do this 1-2 extra reps in a separate set and next time I try to add within the prescribed sets.

An example considering you did 9-9-9-5 last time would be:

Last workout: 9-9-9-5=32

Next: 7-7-7-7-7=35(You have already add 3 reps to the total volume and I m sure you ll feel less tired throghout the set.

Next: 7-7-7-8-8=37

Next: 7-8-8-8-8=39

Next: 8-8-8-8-8=40

And when you reach 5x8 you can just move the reps to look like this:

9-9-9-9-4=40 (and you mastered 4x9)

Of course you may add less or more reps on each workout. The reason I like to add my reps to the last set is because although i m very tired i know is the last set and i can really push beyond all "pain" because it s going to end soon. I don t know if it will work for you or if it s the best "physical" approach but the mind is the most important factor in my opinion and this approach help me to focus. I wish you a nice progress Leigh!

hey guys, i am stuck with this as well @ 4x12 for like 4 month now. Which is surprising since i though my pulling ststrength is good. I even regress in this exercise sometimes. 2 weeks erarlier i could finish 4x12 perfectly, now i cant anymore... I started to train with a weighted west from time to time now. I am hoping this will give me the extra strength I need here,… 

20 hours ago, Cory Fair said:

For the next workout, try to feel the stretch (without sagging, maintain good position) in the lats each rep at the starting position and then focus on contracting the lats as you row. The lats are much larger muscles to row with compared to pumping the arms. Think of the arms as being along for the ride vs doing all the work. Once you are engaging the lats properly, you'll find more success in building up towards the mastery standard.

Ok I will try this cory

Before I pull I do engage the lats as much as I can but will focus more on this connection 

many thanks 

11 hours ago, Antonio Alías Montoya said:

Hi Leigh, I m also on 4x9 ground rows for a very long time. What I do is including a 5th set, but I don t step back to 4x6. As long as your form is correct I think it s not neccesary. So my way to go is trying to do the same reps in the last set than in the first one or a difference of just one rep less or one rep more. For example, my last workout I did 8-8-8-8-8, ground rows. So that the first set is very easy, second easy enough, third fine, fourth hard and fifth very hard. I work this way to don t be burnt from the begginning affecting too much the rest of the sets. And then I write all the sets and reps I have performed on my notebook and the next workout I try to add at least one rep TO THE LAST SET, not the first, or if i feel good one rep to the do fourth set and one to the fifth set. If I don t achieve in performing in within the set, then I do this 1-2 extra reps in a separate set and next time I try to add within the prescribed sets.

An example considering you did 9-9-9-5 last time would be:

Last workout: 9-9-9-5=32

Next: 7-7-7-7-7=35(You have already add 3 reps to the total volume and I m sure you ll feel less tired throghout the set.

Next: 7-7-7-8-8=37

Next: 7-8-8-8-8=39

Next: 8-8-8-8-8=40

And when you reach 5x8 you can just move the reps to look like this:

9-9-9-9-4=40 (and you mastered 4x9)

Of course you may add less or more reps on each workout. The reason I like to add my reps to the last set is because although i m very tired i know is the last set and i can really push beyond all "pain" because it s going to end soon. I don t know if it will work for you or if it s the best "physical" approach but the mind is the most important factor in my opinion and this approach help me to focus. I wish you a nice progress Leigh!

 

Thanks Antonio 

my approach is similar the difference being in tht last set where I’d do 5r I’d rest 10 seconds and then complete the set with perfect form only counting a rep when it is “perfect “ i would then add an extra set at end and continue in same manner.

so I would complete all the 36 reps and not the 32 you suggested plus another 9 

i will give your approach a go tho but doing 5 reps of 7 I think again I may struggle as I get to the end especially when I start adding extra reps in the final sets but I’m going to try it like you say to trick the mind somewhat 

Many thanks for such a detailed and helpful reply Antonio 

all the best 

Leigh 

3 hours ago, Johannes Walser said:

hey guys, i am stuck with this as well @ 4x12 for like 4 month now. Which is surprising since i though my pulling ststrength is good. I even regress in this exercise sometimes. 2 weeks erarlier i could finish 4x12 perfectly, now i cant anymore... I started to train with a weighted west from time to time now. I am hoping this will give me the extra strength I need here,… 

Yes Johannes I was of the same thinking that I hadn’t decent pulling strength 

ground rows tell me different 

good luck with your progress 

leigh 

No advice from me... :-( It just hits me so hard, that I've seen you like a minute ago on instagram doing a slow muscle up and yet you are stuck on a progression I'm about to start next week (after great struggle of polishing 5*15r of pe1)... 

Is there any hope for me to ever finish it?!?!?... :-(

Petra believe me it pains me when I get stuck on 4x9 for so long after some of the strength stuff I used to do 

my elbows feel amazing tho - they never used to - 

leigh 

hey @Leigh Kettle know the feeling.  I've found that working sets of ten is helping me break plateaus on this I had been stuck on 5 sets of 9 for months.  I then decided to go to 10 sets of 2 then 3, 4 and now I'm on ten sets of 5... well 4 sets of 5 and 6 of 4.  I do 15 seconds of rest with allocated stretch on one side to maintain the demands on my grip.  Seen nice carry over to deadlift from this exercise.

Anyway, making nice unbroken progress every week.  Doing it once per week.  

Once I hit 5x10 I'll regress to sets of 4 and refine the technique again.  I find that works well for me as I have an endurance background and more sets, lower reps are always beneficial to me.

The cumulative volume is high and my recovery is much faster.  However I struggle to fit upper in more than once a week.  i'm planning to keep regressing and progressing until I get this.  

I've always found that regressing can help me break plateaus.  

Regressing to the chimp in me.

Hi Leigh!

Im not a coach but heres my to cents. If one has been stuck on a platuea for a long time, its important to change things up a bit. Your body will adapt to the stimulus its put upon. And doing the same nr of sets and reps in the gym over time wont yield any results.

Also there is no magical combination to sets and reps. The muscles can't count, its just a piece of flesh and only responds to the tension which is placed upon it. So the difference between 10-15 reps isn't that much if the time it takes to execute them is the same. 

You just have to do look at what you do now, and then do more in order to get some effect. Just dont overboard, cause that will lead to overtraining. A good deload once in a while is wise.

 The weighted west is a great idea, or play around with elevated rows. And also is doing incline rows in the rep range of 15-20 for a few sets. Dropsets, ladders or Myoreps, whatever.  Studies have show that combination of high and low intensity in a program is beneficial for muscle growth.

Im a huge fan of the progressions in the Foundations series, but the programming is a one size fits all.There is no blueprint which works for all. Every strenghtprogram will work for a while, and when they stop working you need to tweak things up a bit. Thats just how it is.

Thanks Thomas and Paul some greAt advice here 

I totally agree I need to change things up. @Paul Bassett - Paul this idea of going back to 10 sets of 2 is an interesting one 

how would you gauge when you move onto doing sets of 3 ? As I’m pretty sure I could do sets of 2 reps for ever lol ... however I’ll let you know when I try it ha ha 

thAnks again guys will keep you posted 

Leigh 

This is an interesting one for me, too. I haven't got past them, and in fact, after months of training them 2-3 times a week all I had to show for it was burning forearms and biceps.

So I went back through all the videos and the forums and then realised that the exercise was really about the lats and not the rest of the arms. @Cory Fair makes this point above. At which point I figured I needed to avoid running out of steam because of my arms...I should be aiming to run out of steam when my lats give up!

So I dropped back to PE1, but this time I made sure to do the full range of motion--and quite slowly. I also double-checked the position of the rings, etc., etc., making sure everything was spot on.

And then as I progressed I started adding reps to the end until I had a full extra set.

My goal is to be able to complete 6x15r with 'plenty left in the tank' (as I heard Coach say on a podcast ), and in this case, I'm taking that to mean having no burn in the arms when I finish. (Burn in the lats is another matter!)

I might be being optimistic, but I think I'm nearly there; in those 6x15r I'm only really getting the burn in the arms around halfway through set 5 and set 6. I hope (!) that means I'll be moving on in a few weeks.

Even then though, my plan is not to go to PE2, but to go perhaps halfway, and then do the same again.

I have no idea if this is useful to you or just a late night ramble! But the lesson I learned here was to try to find out what muscles a particular exercise was trying to hit, and to then ensure that they get the full attention. And if other muscles are 'getting in the way' then it might be worth dropping back a bit. You're much stronger than I am, @Leigh Kettle so maybe the answer is somewhere in between? Instead of completely dropping back to PE1 like I did, maybe you could just try a lesser incline than PE2?

On 3/26/2018 at 9:49 PM, Leigh Kettle said:

Thanks Thomas and Paul some greAt advice here 

I totally agree I need to change things up. @Paul Bassett - Paul this idea of going back to 10 sets of 2 is an interesting one 

how would you gauge when you move onto doing sets of 3 ? As I’m pretty sure I could do sets of 2 reps for ever lol ... however I’ll let you know when I try it ha ha 

thAnks again guys will keep you posted 

Leigh 

8

Hey @Leigh Kettle So I've kind of adapted the classic triple progression strategy that I used in Kettlebell training.  I was certified by a guy called Mark Reifkind who is a massive believer in this way of progressing kettlebell grinds.

There are some similarities between KB's and bodyweight.  The main one is that KB's make large percentage jumps in weight.  Bodyweight progressions are very similar... the jumps from progression or set can be large - take a jump from the standard KB weights (not the small increments in commercial gyms) - 8kg, 16kg, 24kg, 32kg... massive percentages.  Rather than dumbells or barbells where you can micro load. 

Think about incline rows vs ground rows... the percent in bodyweight/leverage is massive.

So the triple progression is a good tool.  Here are the principles.

choose a KB weight / BW progression

1. First look to increase sets (start at say 3 sets of 3 presses moving to 5 sets)

2. Increase reps (once you've hit 5 sets of 3 reps, then stick at 5 sets and increase reps - could be 2 sets of 4 and 3 sets of 3. Each workout try to add a rep until you hit 5 sets of 5  (making the jump to 10 sets of 3 would be too hard) Some days you can push others not.

3. Increase weight at 5x5

Coach Sommers system is similar but with more micro progressions - 9 steps. So with ground rows I've increased the sets to 10 to make sure I hit a decent volume and can practice the movement frequently.  I started on 5 sets and added one each workout when I could.  

Then I've stuck at 10 sets of 2 reps and moved to sets of 3.  

I do sets of 3 until I can't do any more then drop to sets of 2 and complete the 10 sets.  

I work until I can comfortably do 10 sets of 3 reps.. then I jump to sets of 4 and repeat.  I'm currently on the 5 rep progression for multiple sets.

At some point, the volume will be too high, but I'm using it to break a plateau.  I'll have a test week at some point.

But my cumulative volume is higher and my recovery is faster. I was just hitting a wall doing a a set of 11 then 10 then 5 then say 6... felt all over the place.

I do one 15 second stretch in between so keep recovery tight.  I don't want to spend all day on the exercise.  

You could add more rest but I think that would be at odds with the foundation one philosophy of building strength endurance on the early progressions.

ta

Hey Paul really appreciate your in depth response

im glad you messaged as I’ve just come off the back of your approach 

i just completed 10 x 2 reps with 15 second stretch in between (I agree with you that this minimum rest should be aimed for )

as I thought and mentioned to you I found this very easy . - 

so your philosophy in my next session I would now increase this to 10 x 3 reps is that correct ??

one thing of note is that this isn’t increasing my volume as I was stuck on 4x9r (36total ) 

this is what was confusing me with your Method - sorry for sounding thick 

thank you again Paul 

leigh

On 3/26/2018 at 9:49 PM, Leigh Kettle said:

Thanks Thomas and Paul some greAt advice here 

I totally agree I need to change things up. @Paul Bassett - Paul this idea of going back to 10 sets of 2 is an interesting one 

how would you gauge when you move onto doing sets of 3 ? As I’m pretty sure I could do sets of 2 reps for ever lol ... however I’ll let you know when I try it ha ha 

thAnks again guys will keep you posted 

Leigh 

8

Hey Leigh just finished a stretch session myself - plantar flexion is a big hurdle for me.... anyway... ground rows.

Certainly, at these earlier progressions, your overall volume won't exceed the higher rep, shorter set method.  But what it does do is give you more quality reps. The last one or two reps of each set of 4 sets of 9 reps could be a little shoddy...

once you are on 6 reps x 10 you'll have almost doubled your volume.  The key is progressing at a pace that keeps the reps clean.  The sheer number of sets builds work capacity.

If sets of 2 and 3 reps are easy you'll quickly progress... but once you start losing quality you intentionally drop to the lower rep be set approach.  

i.e. 10 sets of 4 is easy

Jump to sets of 5 until form fails then go to sets of 4.  Each week look to add a set of 5 until you have 10 sets of 5 then jump to sets of 6.

Those early stages you won't be doing higher volume, but the volume may be of higher quality.  I'm not aiming for 10 sets of 15!

I just want to break through a plateau by slightly altering the programming rather than jumping to a new exercise.  

I'm not sure what the rep/set range will be that allows me to jump to say 4 sets of 12, but testing frequently may give me that insight.  

I'll use Coach Sommers progressions as standards to reach... rather than the only system to progress.  

hopefully that's clear

Perfectly Paul 

All makes sense to me now 

my next session I will do the 10x3 and make sure quality is perfect . Utilising your approach of dropping to 2 reps if not

 Thanks once again mate really appreciate it 

gives me renewed hope I may actually master this One lol

ha! Pleasure, the amount of tips I get from your progress and updates is hard to understate!

Rows are a tough one... I've used the above it a little bit with my press ups. 

I also frequently drop to a lower progression or rep range (particularly if Im knackered) and work on quality.   It stops me chasing reps to focus on quality.

I tell you what, a recent bit of play after my training I was working on the Bent Press. I reckon the TB stretch has bust through  a plateu on this exercise.  

It's amazing how lack of mobility down regulates out put.

Bless you man thanks for the kind words 

yes during my calisthenics years I would often practice and preach the art of regressing . It really worked for me and I know it’s a proven method 

the thing with Rows is that I’ve regressed enough times to try thinking outside the box lol 

straddle rocks are another one I’m dealing with mentally and physically. They are brutal 

moved onto straddle holds about 3 weeks ago... so plenty to look forward to.

Just how important is it to get to 5x15 with perfect form? as before it was 5x10. I think 75 almost continuos perfect reps is a little excessive, especially if you look at the follow along videos and watch they're form go down hill pretty quickly. 

I always thought the early progressions was to help prep the joints for harder progressions later on, surely if your pumping out high reps for months on end and flooding the joints with blood they can take the next progressions, also some of the following prgressions are easier anyway.

Could be worth dipping your toes into harder elements to help progressively overload and get stronger.