Neal Winkler

Martin Berkhan: Bodyweight training is worse for hypertrophy

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Warrior'sSuite    0
Warrior'sSuite
You will never get 5 sets of 12 with your 12 rep max, it's not possible. I don't care what drugs you are on. If you get 5 sets of 12 reps in a 30-45 minute workout you were not using a 12 rep max.

With how much rest between sets do you say this is impossible? Because if you rest 5 min between sets you sure can do 5x12 of your 12rm

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Joshua Naterman    1,748
Joshua Naterman

I don't think so. Not if it's a true 12RM weight as measured that day. Being able to do 5x5, 5x12, whatever the reps are, with your last measured 12RM (in this case) is basic criteria for knowing that your 12RM has gone up and that it's time for your working weight to go up as well, even with 12 reps.

There is probably a rest time at which you can do this, but I don't think it's 5 minutes. Maybe 10, but that's pushing it... there's a point at which no reasonable amount of rest is going to make up for the loss of neural drive. I definitely think that if you did a single set once an hour you could pull off many more perfect sets.

I've done a lot of workouts with a lot of different exercises, and I often used 5 minute rests because they felt better and I was always a strength-oriented guy by nature. I have never been able to do 5x5, 5x3, 5x12, 5x anything with a true 5RM, 12RM, 3RM, etc without losing good form (and not even then, for me personally, though I have gotten the first 4 sets by getting more explosive in the later sets, which changes the tempo , recruitment, and the effective 5RM because I did not measure with that tempo) and I've never seen anyone else do it either, not even Davis. I've never seen more than 3 good sets of x reps with an xRM weight using the same form and same tempo as the RM attempt.

I know I'm not the whole world, but I've seen a lot of people and talked with many more and I've never heard of anyone thinking this is realistic. I'd accept Jim Wendler's opinion on this matter as completely trumping mine though, because I think he'd have the most informed opinion of anyone I can think of.

I pretty much believe, based on what I know via academic learning (formal and informal) and what I have experienced, that this accomplishment would indicate that you are not actually using your true 5RM. Workouts like this, that are true 5RM attempts with each set, always become drop sets in my experience. Have you experienced differently?

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Warrior'sSuite    0
Warrior'sSuite
I don't think so. Not if it's a true 12RM weight as measured that day. Being able to do 5x5, 5x12, whatever the reps are, with your last measured 12RM (in this case) is basic criteria for knowing that your 12RM has gone up and that it's time for your working weight to go up as well, even with 12 reps.

There is probably a rest time at which you can do this, but I don't think it's 5 minutes. Maybe 10, but that's pushing it... there's a point at which no reasonable amount of rest is going to make up for the loss of neural drive. I definitely think that if you did a single set once an hour you could pull off many more perfect sets.

I've done a lot of workouts with a lot of different exercises, and I often used 5 minute rests because they felt better and I was always a strength-oriented guy by nature. I have never been able to do 5x5, 5x3, 5x12, 5x anything with a true 5RM, 12RM, 3RM, etc without losing good form (and not even then, for me personally, though I have gotten the first 4 sets by getting more explosive in the later sets, which changes the tempo , recruitment, and the effective 5RM because I did not measure with that tempo) and I've never seen anyone else do it either, not even Davis. I've never seen more than 3 good sets of x reps with an xRM weight using the same form and same tempo as the RM attempt.

I know I'm not the whole world, but I've seen a lot of people and talked with many more and I've never heard of anyone thinking this is realistic. I'd accept Jim Wendler's opinion on this matter as completely trumping mine though, because I think he'd have the most informed opinion of anyone I can think of.

I pretty much believe, based on what I know via academic learning (formal and informal) and what I have experienced, that this accomplishment would indicate that you are not actually using your true 5RM. Workouts like this, that are true 5RM attempts with each set, always become drop sets in my experience. Have you experienced differently?

Well with what you said, it looks i was simply doing it wrong, because i have done 5rmx5 or 8rmx5 or whatever resting 3-5min on every set before but they were like you said, with drops in form and squeezing the reps in and all that.

You're right.

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Joshua Naterman    1,748
Joshua Naterman

I'm not concerned with being right, or you realizing you were doing it wrong, anywhere near as much as I am concerned with you learning how to do better and therefore get more out of your workouts.

You can't build strength into one form by using another, so the focus on form is really the #1 thing.

It's also important to know that you are able to move more weight explosively than you can move slowly, but that this is more of a neurological effect and does not do as much to strengthen the muscle at the tissue level.

That explosive stuff, done under some control, is essential in athletics but is more of learning how to use what you already have. To build more muscle you will get better results with slower movements.

Not knowing these few small things is what tends to keep people from making the progress that they think they should be making.

So if you were doing a 5x5 workout you'd be better off working the same tempo + form for every rep, reducing the weight as necessary to keep proper form. You'll notice that you get 1 more rep with the original weight at least once every 2 weeks if your nutrition is decent and you aren't doing too much work! That is a true sign of progress.

The changes in form and tempo are really an adaptation to NOT having built more strength in the tissues, so you are trying to get more out of what you currently have. Does that make sense?

That is really the difference between a basic strength workout and a maximal strength workout. Basic strength is really building the tissues themselves, and maximal strength is training the body to USE the tissue you are building.

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Felix    5
Felix

It's important to note that he is speaking of hypertrophy, meaning getting bigger muscles, not stronger. And I'd have to agree with him. Yes, you can build an exceptional physique with rings; but most serious bodybuilders are 200lbs+. Let's not forget that they're about being proportional as well, that means very big legs.

 

Ring work is clearly superior for strength development, though.

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Murray Truelove    656
Murray Truelove

Holy thread necromancy Batman!

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ADRIANO FLORES CANO    829
ADRIANO FLORES CANO

This thread is gold just for Joshua's post. Just impressive.

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Murray Truelove    656
Murray Truelove

All of Joshua's posts are gold. He doesn't seem to be about these days.

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Alexander Egebak    615
Alexander Egebak

All of Joshua's posts are gold. He doesn't seem to be about these days.

I think he still posts in nutrition

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Learner    0
Learner

Can one use gymnastic exercises to build muscles(I don't mean as effective as muscle building program with weights, but can bodyweight exercises still make me build muscles just at a slower rate?)-exercises like pull ups,push ups,dips(variations,slow,explosive, static holds) and planche and front lever proggresion
Thank you guys

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Frankincensed    19
Frankincensed

It ain't called "Gymnastic Bodies": for nuttin!

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Jon Douglas    4,897
Jon Douglas

Pretty much :)

Training for looks isnt my thing but over a couple of years the gymnastic physique is IMO better looking, not to begin to mention the functionality or mental stimulation and joy of movement :)

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