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Guest marktb68

unimpressed by strength

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Gregor

in L-seat biceps is not working at all (especialy if it is just a A level skill, and if I can do F level...) :wink: in maltese biceps is working but if muscle is not flexed then is not as big as it is when flexed. So bottom line in straight arm work you can get hypertrophy and get pumped but muscle in flex position is much bigger.

And yes video is older, but that doesn't matter.

Also you can look my sticky topic in ring strength forum (building the body for rings).

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Crimsoncross
in L-seat biceps is not working at all (especialy if it is just a A level skill, and if I can do F level...) :wink: in maltese biceps is working but if muscle is not flexed then is not as big as it is when flexed. So bottom line in straight arm work you can get hypertrophy and get pumped but muscle in flex position is much bigger.

And yes video is older, but that doesn't matter.

Also you can look my sticky topic in ring strength forum (building the body for rings).

I want to apologize for having offended you. All I will say now is that you look muscular in the pics that have been posted in this thread, but you don't look like that in the video, which I don't understand.

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Joshua Naterman

I remember reading that van gelder did steroids, but I guess i read wrong. My apologies to Yuri and his fans. It appears he just did cocaine.

Edit: it was allegations that he used coke to mask steroids that I read about, which doesn't work anyways.

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irongymnast

1. Quote by Coach Sommers on TMuscle interview:

If you're only training to look good, then how athletic you are is of no importance. However, if you'd like to look good and be athletically functional, then you need more than just size and strength. Strength without balance, agility, coordination and explosiveness is strength that's athletically unusable. Integrating these types of exercises into your current workout will help to turn a strength athlete into more of an all around athlete.

2. Jeffrey or anyone else:

male_gymnast.jpg

Who is that gymnast? Looks like Alexei Nemov but he's kinda more buff. :/

3. What's TimeUnderTension?

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Gregor
in L-seat biceps is not working at all (especialy if it is just a A level skill, and if I can do F level...) :wink: in maltese biceps is working but if muscle is not flexed then is not as big as it is when flexed. So bottom line in straight arm work you can get hypertrophy and get pumped but muscle in flex position is much bigger.

And yes video is older, but that doesn't matter.

Also you can look my sticky topic in ring strength forum (building the body for rings).

I want to apologize for having offended you. All I will say now is that you look muscular in the pics that have been posted in this thread, but you don't look like that in the video, which I don't understand.

It offended me when you said: "he has nothing" like I can't even do even an L-seat.

Sometimes, video makes you smaller and sometimes makes bigger then you realy are. You can look at the leatest video from my competition and compare it.

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Jeffrey
Oh yeah, wiki says he took cocaine, not the juice.

Your right it was cocaine not steroids. He lost his career and his job because of it.

There's no doubt that elite gymnasts have great potential, talent and a good mix of genetics. But getting as big as most ring specialists (for example) isnt just from a protein shake and hard training. I think steroid use as with most other sports plays a big role in gymnastics.

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Gregor

I don't think that plays such a big role as in other sports. Just look at statistics :arrow: how many gymnast has been caught abusing the steroids? And doping tests are on regular basics.

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Jeffrey
I don't think that plays such a big role as in other sports. Just look at statistics :arrow: how many gymnast has been caught abusing the steroids? And doping tests are on regular basics.

I dont know to be honest but less than cycling or athletics thats for sure.

Imo strength related sports are ideal for steriod use. For the strength gain and the speedy revovery you can get from it. So although it isnt a major problem (hopefully) I do think most elite athleten use some kind of illigal substance to get them better.

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irongymnast

Steroids would make gymnasts get heavier which would would be against them. It's always about the strength/bodyweight ratio.

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Jeffrey
Steroids would make gymnasts get heavier which would would be against them. It's always about the strength/bodyweight ratio.

But withoud the steroids he would be 1/3 less powerfull. And there are steriods which wont make you much bigger but insane strong.

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Joshua Naterman
Steroids would make gymnasts get heavier which would would be against them. It's always about the strength/bodyweight ratio.

To play devil's advocate here, strength gains are so large with 'roids, assuming proper training of course, that strength gain will occur at a much faster rate than weight gain, especially with certain steroids. So the concern of weight gain is unwarranted when that added weight actually increases strength to bodyweight ratio. Just something to consider.

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Sternford
I dont know to be honest
I do think most elite athleten use some kind of illigal substance to get them better.

What, you just got this feeling that they are doing it? Why don't you just look up the statistics?

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Jeffrey
I dont know to be honest
I do think most elite athleten use some kind of illigal substance to get them better.

What, you just got this feeling that they are doing it? Why don't you just look up the statistics?

I dont care about the statistics if its about these matters. Ive been around long enough to know which clever methods peopel use to pass a test. Along with that the evolution of steroids isnt standing still either. to give an example last years tour de france. The found out about a new kind of EPO which havent been discovered before. All of a sudden dozens of cyclists have tested positive but all claimed to be clean before and did several other competitions. Nobody knows how long its been around so no body no's how many cyclists didnt end up in the statistics. You dont have to be a genius to see some of those guys physiques to conclude there is something wrong. It isnt functional for a body to handle so much muscle mass even for gymnastics this is out of proportion.

Look I dont want to claim all gymnasts are steriod users. definitely not! And even if some of those guys use steriods than they still work there balls off to get were they are. Most of us with or without steroids will never be that good. But you have to admit its a world wide problem in all types of sport.

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Gregor
Look I dont want to claim all gymnasts are steriod users. definitely not! And even if some of those guys use steriods than they still work there balls off to get were they are. Most of us with or without steroids will never be that good. But you have to admit its a world wide problem in all types of sport.

True.

You dont have to be a genius to see some of those guys physiques to conclude there is something wrong. It isnt functional for a body to handle so much muscle mass even for gymnastics this is out of proportion.

haha this made a smile on my face :mrgreen: Did you ever seen those gymnast in person? Do you know much they weigh? How tall are they?

It's not functional? how would you know that, if you don't have any exeprience at all in elite level of gymnastics and their skill evels...It's not functional for high bar specialist, p. bars, all-arounders...but for still rings specialits it may be.

And one more thing, one is stronger with more mass then other with less muscle mass.

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Razz

Lol guys comeon look at coaches kids with no special diet and then imagine a 100% perfect diet and kids that trained a few years more (they may not be kids anymore then :P ) and think what the results can be.. of course roid use is controversial on some people.. fx. Gelder but for the most part I agree with Gregor, roids use in gymnastics is not a big issue anymore at least.

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sasquatch

irongymnast, the gymnast grabbing the rings in that picture is Ivan Ivankov I think. ...I don't know how to quote with a phone :(

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irongymnast

I'm going to quote Coach Sommer once again (http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_arti ... le_no_iron):

T-Nation: These top athletes, obviously they train hard and have dedicated their lives to this sport, but it's hard to compete at the world class level without using performance enhancing drugs, at least in many sports. What's the drug scene like in men's gymnastics?

Sommer: To my knowledge, there's never been an incident of a gymnast testing positive for steroids. For a competitive gymnast, the extra size and bulk that steroids provide would be a decided disadvantage in a sport where the athlete with the highest relative strength (strength-to-bodyweight ratio) is often the one who comes out on top.

Also, steroid use would do nothing at all in helping a gymnast to learn a skill like a triple back somersault on the floor. That can only be developed through many years of correct and structured training.

T-Nation: True, but it's possible to use steroids and other performance enhancing drugs and not get bulky. Plus, there's a big difference between someone testing clean and someone actually being clean. So you're saying that world class gymnasts don't use performance enhancing drugs?

Sommer: Of course I can't speak for all of the competitive athletes out there, but I can say that of all of the U.S. National Team, World Championship and Olympic athletes that I've known, trained with, and observed over the years, I don’t know of any that have used steroids.

Wouldn't he know?

Razz: Why are you saying that steroid use is controversial at Gelder's case? Because he's so muscular? Maybe he has trained very hard for it. Yuri Chechi is at least as big as he is.

sasquatch: Thanks, you're right.

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Gregor

Cechi was not bis as Gelder is. I think too, that gelder didn't got any gain from cocain..

I don't know what do you think about coach Sommers quote....what would he not know?

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Jeffrey
haha this made a smile on my face :mrgreen: Did you ever seen those gymnast in person? Do you know much they weigh? How tall are they?

It's not functional? how would you know that, if you don't have any exeprience at all in elite level of gymnastics and their skill evels...It's not functional for high bar specialist, p. bars, all-arounders...but for still rings specialits it may be.

And one more thing, one is stronger with more mass then other with less muscle mass.

Yep I have. I can walk from my house to the front door of Yuri's (Childhood) house. I know the guy is very small in hight but he carries a huge amount of muscle. I'm not saying he uses steroids I cant tell and obvious he tells he never did. As for the muscle mass, functional wasnt the best word to chose. It might be usefull for a gymnast but through my experience as a strength and conditioning coach I can tell that large amounts of muscle mass doesnt get there by sipping protein shakes or creatine. I know we all want to believe things like that can happen and that we can all get that big withoud using any kind of illigal substance. Real world experiences show the other way around. Maybe for some of us it possible to get that elite body withoud using but I'm talking small percentages here, for the most of us guys we can get athletic but nothing more than that withoud using illigan substances.

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Jeffrey
I'm going to quote Coach Sommer once again (http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_arti ... le_no_iron):
T-Nation: These top athletes, obviously they train hard and have dedicated their lives to this sport, but it's hard to compete at the world class level without using performance enhancing drugs, at least in many sports. What's the drug scene like in men's gymnastics?

Sommer: To my knowledge, there's never been an incident of a gymnast testing positive for steroids. For a competitive gymnast, the extra size and bulk that steroids provide would be a decided disadvantage in a sport where the athlete with the highest relative strength (strength-to-bodyweight ratio) is often the one who comes out on top.

Also, steroid use would do nothing at all in helping a gymnast to learn a skill like a triple back somersault on the floor. That can only be developed through many years of correct and structured training.

T-Nation: True, but it's possible to use steroids and other performance enhancing drugs and not get bulky. Plus, there's a big difference between someone testing clean and someone actually being clean. So you're saying that world class gymnasts don't use performance enhancing drugs?

Sommer: Of course I can't speak for all of the competitive athletes out there, but I can say that of all of the U.S. National Team, World Championship and Olympic athletes that I've known, trained with, and observed over the years, I don’t know of any that have used steroids.

Wouldn't he know?

Razz: Why are you saying that steroid use is controversial at Gelder's case? Because he's so muscular? Maybe he has trained very hard for it. Yuri Chechi is at least as big as he is.

sasquatch: Thanks, you're right.

No it wont help skil development that why I said it is a major problem in strength related sports. Though some gymnasts would benefid from it like ring specialists. And on the other hand even if coach sommers knews it would he tell? I think not.

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Joshua Naterman

You do realize that in all likelihood, Yuri *IS* one of those genetic elites, right? I don't know who you're coaching, but most athletes are not going to benefit from carrying so much (proportionally speaking compared to Yuri) upper body mass so to complain that it's not possible for most is a bit silly to me.

You also seem to not be considering the lifetime that it took him to grow to the size that he is. Many of the top rings guys are super buff for their height, and by looking at the pictures and videos of Coach's athletes, who haven't even gotten out of puberty, I can definitely see the potential for relative hugeness in many of them. It could be that he has taken a radically different approach to preparing his body for rings, and that is what has shaped him the way he is.

It's also much easier for a guy that height to get super buff compared to someone my size just because of the quantities of food that are involved. With a dedicated lifetime, and by that I mean 10+ years solid with no breaks, of training specifically to build what he has built, I can't pretend to be ultra surprised at how he looks.

At the same time, I can see where steroid allegations might come from. He really is almost surreal.

Jeffrey: I think you're doing Coach a bit of a disservice when you say he would not mention steroid use. I think he would, honestly. Of course I don't know the man personally, but typically the kind of person who starts and runs a site like this, writes the book he wrote, and makes the comments he makes does not compromise their integrity. It is a symbol of who they are, and to compromise it would be similar to staring at the sun long enough to partially blind yourself. It's just not something they are very likely to do, because it is simply not who they are. I realize that's quite a limb to step out on, but Coach has been very forthcoming in everything he has said and written since I've been here starting Feb '09, and from reading the posts quite a long time before that.

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irongymnast
Cechi was not bis as Gelder is. I think too, that gelder didn't got any gain from cocain..

Look from 5.07 until the end of his routine. That's the most muscular (and lean) ring athlete I've seen, up to today. Can you link to a Gelder video where he looks bigger and leaner than that?

As for the cocaine, lol? Who said you gain muscle mass from cocaine? :S

I don't know what do you think about coach Sommers quote....what would he not know?

Gregor, I meant that he would know if the athletes (his or others) were doing steroids.

You also seem to not be considering the lifetime that it took him to grow to the size that he is.

Yeah, Gregor posted a picture of his where he's skinny when he was 12.

I think it is totally possible if they've been training daily 20 years for 8 hours/day and they're the best athletes at the rings. Let us not forget that gymnastics and especially rings is maybe the most demanding sport in terms of hand strength.

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Jeffrey

@Slizzard: I want to point out that I'm not talking about Yuri per se. I'm using him as an example. As I said before, there is no doubt about the genetic potential of these guys. They will most likely be the biggeste and most powerfull athletes in the gymnasium from the start. I never said you cant build a descent body or strenght gains because you can. Though I still stand by what I said. Most of the guys on the top have used or using performance enhancing substances to get better.

As for the coach. I cant speak for him and I think nobody can. But from a rational perspective I still think that even if he knew (whether hes against it or not) he would not tell. Hes too involved in the sport (cant seems to find the right word haha since it isnt my first language). But I might be wrong I'm just asuming.

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Gregor

Jeffery :arrow: gelder has no more then 65 kg (yes he is very small) :wink:

iRONGYMNAST :arrow: BELIVE ME he is smaller, and you can find even more leaner(riped gymnasts as he, but not so big), and few more guys are almost as big as Gelder is, but are not sucssesful as he is. You can look on a youtube for Al Alli Asi.

About training time: I never trained more then 3h per day (in summer I did have 2x 2,5h per day two months, and all school brake times) till few years ago, when the rings were only option for me. About strength training, if you read my topic you would see I don't train a strength every day (till little more then half year I did just 2 heavy workout strength training, now 3 times per week).

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irongymnast

Gregor: I didn't mean my exaggeration to be taken as is, I meant that they've trained a lot and they also possess the genetics. Sorry for the confusion.

Also, thanks for the clarification, I'm sure you know better. I'm not being sarcastic.

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