Greasing the Groove

[Hayden.M.]

what does Greasing the Groove actually mean? ive read about people using it in their training or something like that but i dont know what it is or the benefits of using this method over traditional methods.

i would appreciate anybodies help on this topic,

Hayden.

[Neal Winkler]

Google.

[Charles Weill]

I believe it's one of Pavel Tsatsouline's coined terms. I read about it in Naked Warrior. It's where you focus on technique in a specific excercise and work the exercise submaximally as often as possible while staying "as fresh as possible".

Basically: “Do as much quality work as possible while being as fresh as possible.†--Professor Vladimir Zatsiorsky (a Soviet guy)

It worked for me with BW Single Leg Squats.

[heinrich]

It's where you focus on technique in a specific excercise and work the exercise submaximally as often as possible while staying "as fresh as possible"

for example: one set of 3-5 pull-ups, pistols, pushups or whatever every few hours throughout the day.

http://humanmachine.wordpress.com/2007/ ... -strength/

Enjoy!

[Crimsoncross]

So what is GTG-type exercising good for? What's the point of it?

[Charles Weill]

From what I understand, GTG can be one of the quickest ways to achieve BW movements that require a mix of strength an skill like SLS and one-armed push-ups, or extreme proficiency in a movement such as chin-up. Basically in GTG if you only focus on one or two exercises and repeat them as often as possible while staying fresh, you become more successful with that exercise than if you simply train once or a couple times a week. It works well if you have a mediocre work ethic or can't time your workout well or simply don't have time.

[Guest]

An example would be to perform a couple of pull-ups every time you walk through the door where you you have set up your pull-up bar. Even if you only do three or four pullups at a time, you will notice that your max number of reps increases over time. I did this for some time a couple of years ago in a stairway - every time I went down the stairs I did a couple of pull-ups from a ledge above the stairs, and without ever doing more than five at a time, my max went from something like five pull-ups to twenty in a couple of months.

[Crimsoncross]

So GTG-type training doesn't contribute at all for either strength or hypertrophy?

[heinrich]

So GTG-type training doesn't contribute at all for either strength

:?:

my max went from something like five pull-ups to twenty in a couple of months.

when you can do 20 consecutive pull-ups instead of 5, that means your strength has increased.

[Crimsoncross]

when you can do 20 consecutive pull-ups instead of 5, that means your strength has increased.

I thought 12+ reps of any exercise was considered "endurance" and not adequate for producing either strength or hypertrophy.

[Guest]

when you can do 20 consecutive pull-ups instead of 5, that means your strength has increased.

I thought 12+ reps of any exercise was considered "endurance" and not adequate for producing either strength or hypertrophy.

Ehmmm.... don't you need strength first to get to the point where you can do a certain exercise as endurance training?

And what I wanted to point out with my example is that performing submaximal effort a couple of times a day will lead to increases in your max number of reps without specifically training for a certain max number. That's the idea of greasing the groove.

[Crimsoncross]

when you can do 20 consecutive pull-ups instead of 5, that means your strength has increased.

I thought 12+ reps of any exercise was considered "endurance" and not adequate for producing either strength or hypertrophy.

Ehmmm.... don't you need strength first to get to the point where you can do a certain exercise as endurance training?

And what I wanted to point out with my example is that performing submaximal effort a couple of times a day will lead to increases in your max number of reps without specifically training for a certain max number. That's the idea of greasing the groove.

I'm getting a little confused here. Why would you want to be able to do a lot of reps, say 20+ reps of pullups or dips if you're training for strength or hypertrophy?

[Richard Duelley]

I thought 12+ reps of any exercise was considered "endurance" and not adequate for producing either strength or hypertrophy.

Ehmmm.... don't you need strength first to get to the point where you can do a certain exercise as endurance training?

And what I wanted to point out with my example is that performing submaximal effort a couple of times a day will lead to increases in your max number of reps without specifically training for a certain max number. That's the idea of greasing the groove.

I'm getting a little confused here. Why would you want to be able to do a lot of reps, say 20+ reps of pullups or dips if you're training for strength or hypertrophy?

I think they are talking about reps per set not total reps. So if you do 3 sets of 5 reps of the most difficult pullup variation you can do then thats in the strength regime. If you do 3 sets of 15 reps thats endurance. If you add in extra sets onto the 3x5 so 6 sets of 5 reps max effort, for example, you just upped your volume and are in the hypertrophy with strength range. I think the ranges are something like 3-5 sets of 5 reps is pure strength and added sets put you in the hypertrophy with strength range and when you get over 10 reps per set you start getting into the endurance range. Of course, you will get some hypertrophy just working in the pure strength regime.

[Guest]

I'm getting a little confused here. Why would you want to be able to do a lot of reps, say 20+ reps of pullups or dips if you're training for strength or hypertrophy?

It wasn't my intention to confuse anyone I think you're overanalyzing what I said. It's just an anecdote to illustrate GTG. At the time I wasn't thinking about training for strength or endurance or whatever, I just played around with doing pull-ups. And I noticed that doing several sets of 5 pull-ups throughout the day increased my max number of reps to 20 even when I never trained 20 pull-ups in a row.

So, just to clarify: I am not implying anything about the relation between GTG and strength/hypertrophy/endurance

[Crimsoncross]

It wasn't my intention to confuse anyone I think you're overanalyzing what I said. It's just an anecdote to illustrate GTG. At the time I wasn't thinking about training for strength or endurance or whatever, I just played around with doing pull-ups. And I noticed that doing several sets of 5 pull-ups throughout the day increased my max number of reps to 20 even when I never trained 20 pull-ups in a row.

So, just to clarify: I am not implying anything about the relation between GTG and strength/hypertrophy/endurance

Oh ok, no problem.

[Crimsoncross]

I think they are talking about reps per set not total reps. So if you do 3 sets of 5 reps of the most difficult pullup variation you can do then thats in the strength regime. If you do 3 sets of 15 reps thats endurance. If you add in extra sets onto the 3x5 so 6 sets of 5 reps max effort, for example, you just upped your volume and are in the hypertrophy with strength range. I think the ranges are something like 3-5 sets of 5 reps is pure strength and added sets put you in the hypertrophy with strength range and when you get over 10 reps per set you start getting into the endurance range. Of course, you will get some hypertrophy just working in the pure strength regime.

I'm new to all this so I don't understand how you can do 5x5 of x exercise. For example if I start doing my set of HSPU on the floor and against the wall (or is it HeSPU?), first I can do 5-6, but then I can only do 3 and 3, these last 2 days anyway. I can't do a 4th set with what I rest (35-40 seconds between each set).

[Joshua Naterman]

With your rest periods, you are training for endurance. Low reps (1-5) are used to develop strength and power, and this type of training requires longer rest periods.

Why the longer rests? Because when you can only do 5-6 reps, assuming your total set is less than 20-30 seconds, so if you're 2 seconds up and 2 seconds down or faster on each rep then you're inside that timeframe, then you are burning the small amount of ATP stored in your muscles and exhausting the available creatine phosphate system. It takes 3-5 minutes, sometimes longer, for your body to get rid of the metabolites, make and store more raw atp in the muscle, and replenish the available creatine phosphate.

Since you are only resting for less than a minute, you are preventing your muscles from rebuilding the energy they need to do 5 reps on your later sets. This will slow down your strength gains.

That doesn't mean you're wasting your time, all it means is that the short rests you are taking are preventing you from working at your potential, which in turn is keeping you from making the most progress in your strength development.

[Crimsoncross]

With your rest periods, you are training for endurance. Low reps (1-5) are used to develop strength and power, and this type of training requires longer rest periods.

Why the longer rests? Because when you can only do 5-6 reps, assuming your total set is less than 20-30 seconds, so if you're 2 seconds up and 2 seconds down or faster on each rep then you're inside that timeframe, then you are burning the small amount of ATP stored in your muscles and exhausting the available creatine phosphate system. It takes 3-5 minutes, sometimes longer, for your body to get rid of the metabolites, make and store more raw atp in the muscle, and replenish the available creatine phosphate.

Since you are only resting for less than a minute, you are preventing your muscles from rebuilding the energy they need to do 5 reps on your later sets. This will slow down your strength gains.

That doesn't mean you're wasting your time, all it means is that the short rests you are taking are preventing you from working at your potential, which in turn is keeping you from making the most progress in your strength development.

Gee, I didn't know that :shock:

So when you are training the FL progressions and the PL progressions, or just doing low-rep exercises in general, how much do you have to rest? 3-5 minutes, like you said?

This is something I was meaning to ask, how much you have to rest between each set or for certain exercises, because I thought it was crucial.

[Joshua Naterman]

Gee, I didn't know that :shock:

So when you are training the FL progressions and the PL progressions, or just doing low-rep exercises in general, how much do you have to rest? 3-5 minutes, like you said?

This is something I was meaning to ask, how much you have to rest between each set or for certain exercises, because I thought it was crucial.

Rest time and rep range are both crucial. The rep range is important because it should be determined by ability, and if you are doing 5 reps of tuck planche push ups, for example, because you can't do 7, and your set is lasting around 20 seconds then you're depending on the muscle fibers that generate the most force. This force production is accomplished by using the creatine to generate ATP. This system is the fastest at generating ATP, which means it gives the most fuel per second. This means it lets you do the most work. Unfortunately you only have enough for 15-20s of work, along with 2-4 seconds of actual ATP that gets burned before the creatine is used to replace it. When your muscles run out of readily available creatine phosphate, you have reached failure. Over time this energy system becomes better developed, and your body creates more actin and myosin proteins inside the muscle that use ATP, and you're able to do more reps. When you have developed so many actin/myosin proteins that you can do more than 5-6 reps, you are adapting in a new way. NOW your body starts developing the ability to produce the same amount of force with ATP from glycolysis, which is the burning of sugar in the muscle. This generates ATP slower, and only lasts for another 20-30 seconds. That's why you'll find that you can do more reps if you move faster. If you measure by the clock, you'll see that your time working doesn't actually change much under a given load. You poop out when you use up whatever energy source your body is depending on for that level of exertion.

For pure strength, you're never going to make it all the way through glycolysis, and usually you're not even going to get into it.

The rest is important for a related, but different reason. The rest has nothing to do with how many reps you do. It is based off of which energy system you want your body to be working off of. For pure strength and power, you want your body to work off of ATP and creatine phosphate because it provides the most energy per second. Depending on how efficient your body is and how hard your set was, it could take as little as 3-4 minutes or as much as 10 minutes to completely replenish the creatine in the muscles you just used. If you don't take the rest you need, it's like driving on an empty tank. You run out of gas! Always make sure your tank is full, so to speak. It will take some experience, but after a month you'll pretty much know exactly how long you have to rest when working on pure strength. The exact times are different for everyone and sometimes different for each exercise.

Those rules generally apply to fundamental bodyweight exercises, which MOVE your body through space.

For the statics you're going to need to develop things a bit differently. Most of us here have realized that it is a mistake to even attempt the next progression in any static hold before the current progression can be held for 3-5 sets of 20-30 seconds. So basically around 90 seconds of total work in 3-4 sets. When you can do that WITH PERFECT FORM!!! That means no shaking, no hips moving a little up and then a little down, no elbows bending and then straightening, but perfect static holds. Yes, this takes time. It also ensures success. This is my personal experience as well as the experience of many, many others here.

[Crimsoncross]

Rest time and rep range are both crucial. The rep range is important because it should be determined by ability, and if you are doing 5 reps of tuck planche push ups, for example, because you can't do 7, and your set is lasting around 20 seconds then you're depending on the muscle fibers that generate the most force. This force production is accomplished by using the creatine to generate ATP. This system is the fastest at generating ATP, which means it gives the most fuel per second. This means it lets you do the most work. Unfortunately you only have enough for 15-20s of work, along with 2-4 seconds of actual ATP that gets burned before the creatine is used to replace it. When your muscles run out of readily available creatine phosphate, you have reached failure. Over time this energy system becomes better developed, and your body creates more actin and myosin proteins inside the muscle that use ATP, and you're able to do more reps. When you have developed so many actin/myosin proteins that you can do more than 5-6 reps, you are adapting in a new way. NOW your body starts developing the ability to produce the same amount of force with ATP from glycolysis, which is the burning of sugar in the muscle. This generates ATP slower, and only lasts for another 20-30 seconds. That's why you'll find that you can do more reps if you move faster. If you measure by the clock, you'll see that your time working doesn't actually change much under a given load. You poop out when you use up whatever energy source your body is depending on for that level of exertion.

For pure strength, you're never going to make it all the way through glycolysis, and usually you're not even going to get into it.

The rest is important for a related, but different reason. The rest has nothing to do with how many reps you do. It is based off of which energy system you want your body to be working off of. For pure strength and power, you want your body to work off of ATP and creatine phosphate because it provides the most energy per second. Depending on how efficient your body is and how hard your set was, it could take as little as 3-4 minutes or as much as 10 minutes to completely replenish the creatine in the muscles you just used. If you don't take the rest you need, it's like driving on an empty tank. You run out of gas! Always make sure your tank is full, so to speak. It will take some experience, but after a month you'll pretty much know exactly how long you have to rest when working on pure strength. The exact times are different for everyone and sometimes different for each exercise.

Those rules generally apply to fundamental bodyweight exercises, which MOVE your body through space.

Great! Never imagined how complicated this whole thing is, it's staggering.

So for FBE, you should rest until you feel "normal" between each set? That might take a while, and it may even be difficult to ascertain just when I am full again or not.

I never really thought about this when exercising. I heard the "bar-barians" or maybe one named "Hitman" and those people who workout in the bars in NYC rest something like 20 seconds between sets. Hah, that's not possible for me, so I did 35-40.

So depending on how much you rest will determine whether you're training for strength, hypertrophy, strength+hypertrophy or endurance?

For the statics you're going to need to develop things a bit differently. Most of us here have realized that it is a mistake to even attempt the next progression in any static hold before the current progression can be held for 3-5 sets of 20-30 seconds. So basically around 90 seconds of total work in 3-4 sets. When you can do that WITH PERFECT FORM!!! That means no shaking, no hips moving a little up and then a little down, no elbows bending and then straightening, but perfect static holds. Yes, this takes time. It also ensures success. This is my personal experience as well as the experience of many, many others here.

Hmm, didn't know that. I thought that once you reach 60 seconds comfortably with either progression you're good to go.

And how much do you have to rest between each hold?

[Blairbob]

It's been said before by Coach Sommer that rest periods for FSP's can be 45-90s. Only 45-90s you say? This is because according to the SSC, you should only be working at 50% capacity. So, they are not max effort sets, they are work sets.

Rest periods for the FBE, should be 3-5 minutes. 3 minutes can be rough, though; 5 is better.

Sometimes, I think I can go sooner in the first and middle rounds, but it always ends up biting me in the butt toward the end of the sets or series.

[Charles Weill]

For the statics you're going to need to develop things a bit differently. Most of us here have realized that it is a mistake to even attempt the next progression in any static hold before the current progression can be held for 3-5 sets of 20-30 seconds. So basically around 90 seconds of total work in 3-4 sets. When you can do that WITH PERFECT FORM!!! That means no shaking, no hips moving a little up and then a little down, no elbows bending and then straightening, but perfect static holds. Yes, this takes time. It also ensures success. This is my personal experience as well as the experience of many, many others here.

Wow, I learned a lot from this thread. Thanks for the info Slizz and Blair on rest periods.

Just please don't make me go back to doing frog stands :cry:

[Crimsoncross]

It's been said before by Coach Sommer that rest periods for FSP's can be 45-90s. Only 45-90s you say? This is because according to the SSC, you should only be working at 50% capacity. So, they are not max effort sets, they are work sets.

Rest periods for the FBE, should be 3-5 minutes. 3 minutes can be rough, though; 5 is better.

Sometimes, I think I can go sooner in the first and middle rounds, but it always ends up biting me in the butt toward the end of the sets or series.

Jeez there are a lot of basics/principles that I wasn't even aware of, and I have read many of the stickies here and the articles.

50% capacity on all the holds? I had no idea.

Oh and in the 3-5 minutes that you are resting between each set doing FBE, can you do any other kind of exercise in the meantime? Like for instance I'm doing HSPU on the floor against the wall, can I do a pulling exercise while I am resting or is this not recommended?

Also, I just want to clarify that my primary aim is hypertrophy and strength secondary, because each one is very different to train, with resting, programming and all that, so the rest times that you have given me are probably strength-oriented (correct me if they aren't), so I just wanted to know what are the rest ranges which focus on hypertrophy, if you know.

[Joshua Naterman]

SON OF A B@#(*!!! I typed a really good reply and it didnt freaking post. CRAP!

[Joshua Naterman]

Jeez there are a lot of basics/principles that I wasn't even aware of, and I have read many of the stickies here and the articles.

50% capacity on all the holds? I had no idea.

Oh and in the 3-5 minutes that you are resting between each set doing FBE, can you do any other kind of exercise in the meantime? Like for instance I'm doing HSPU on the floor against the wall, can I do a pulling exercise while I am resting or is this not recommended?

Also, I just want to clarify that my primary aim is hypertrophy and strength secondary, because each one is very different to train, with resting, programming and all that, so the rest times that you have given me are probably strength-oriented (correct me if they aren't), so I just wanted to know what are the rest ranges which focus on hypertrophy, if you know.

I answered this all in the damn post that didn't get to the thread. F&@!*($@!#(*.

I'm actually so mad that I don't even want to type anything. This is why I stopped playing a few video games back in the day when I still played. Save screwed up and I had to redo like 2 days worth of stuff. Screw that.

Your rest periods do not determine what effect you will get. The emphasis of your work sets will determine how long your rest periods have to be. Doing pulls during the rest between pushes is good. Push, 2 min, pull, 2 min, repeat 4x is a good way to pair exercises for strength.

If you're going for mixed strength and hypertrophy(kind of a misnomer, since strength development is really a different type of hypertrophy) then you're going to want to be in the 30-50s work set range. That means 6-12 reps, depending on your pace. at 2120, that's 5 seconds per rep. That means you'd want 6-10 reps. You'd start with something you could do 6 times at that pace and you'd stay there until you can do 4-5 sets of 10 reps. Then you're ready to move on to the next progression. You're going to be looking at 90s-3minutes of rest. Probably closer to 3 minutes at first. If you need more, take more. Taking MORE rest will NOT hurt you when it comes to strength and size. I know there are some people here who will say, and not incorrectly, that there is more to this statement, but I'm keeping it simple. You want to go into consolidation training, go for it. I don't want to deal with it right now. This is the basic principle for the hypertrophy + strength.