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Michael Ryan 190844

Strict Muscle Up Progression?

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Michael Ryan 190844

Hi Everyone,

I'm currently doing the Foundation 1 and Stretching courses and want to work towards a strict/slow muscle up. Firstly on the chin up bar and then rings.

Currently I can do a solid pronated chin up on the straight bar though I don't have the ability to go any further.

Other than F1/stretching courses would I need to do any additional exercises?

And also at what point in the F1 course should I start attempting muscle ups. Don't want to push something too early in my development, which then leads to injury.

Thanks

Mike

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Tanya Hill

Hi @Michael Ryan,

You are definitely on the right track. 

The Foundation series is actually perfect in building the push / pull strength you need for a strict/slow muscle up.  

Once you complete the Foundation series and you are ready to take on rings, you will be happy you mastered the basics of Foundations.  Even though you may not do a muscle up everyday, you are always training for it. 

Another course that would be a great benefit for you is Handstand One. This course focuses heavily on the forearms and wrist, which will help you train for your false grip. 

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Luke Searra

Michael remember a the simple principle of "strength carry over", or "skill transfer". You do not have to directly train a muscle up rope climb to be preparing for the movement. In Foundations you will methodically be fixing strength deficit by strength deficit, don't be surprised one day if you try the full muscle up after diligently doing Foundations for a couple of months and it "just happens". 

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waler white
On 1/5/2017 at 3:31 PM, Michael Ryan 190844 said:

Hi Everyone,

I'm currently doing the Foundation 1 and Stretching courses and want to work towards a strict/slow muscle up. Firstly on the chin up bar and then rings.

Currently I can do a solid pronated chin up on the straight bar though I don't have the ability to go any further.

Other than F1/stretching courses would I need to do any additional exercises?

And also at what point in the F1 course should I start attempting muscle ups. Don't want to push something too early in my development, which then leads to injury.

Thanks

Mike

Keep in mind a muscle up on rings is most technique. In my expierience a muscle up on rings is not harder than a muscle up on a bar strength wise but much harder technique wise. 

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Darin Phoenix

Hi, 

In Coach's original text he rated the Straight Bar Muscle Up as being harder than a Muscle Up on the rings for the following reason " a straight bar muscle-up is also much harder as you are not able to lean forward. For future training purposes however, this is actually preferable as a perfect muscle-up on the Xtreme Rings doesn't lean forward, but transitions with the arms remaining out to the sides rather than moving forward and backward."  

Keep working hard and staying consistent and the results will take care of themselves.

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Angel Chav

What helped me the most in muscle ups was being able to do at least 20 strict pullups and adding power to the muscles that help in the top portion of the muscle up.

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waler white
2 minutes ago, Angel Chav said:

What helped me the most in muscle ups was being able to do at least 20 strict pullups and adding power to the muscles that help in the top portion of the muscle up.

While I am sure that would work, it certainlty is not the fatest wat to achieve a muscle up. Anything above 12 reps is endurance.Strength is 3-5 reps. Doing sets of 3 pullups as fast as you can, doing harder pull up progressions such as behind the back rope climbs, or even weighted pullups would be faster. 

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Angel Chav

There are several ways of progressing to muscle ups just like theres several ways of progressing to one hand pushups with feet together.For me pullups in the 20 rep range helped me do muscle ups,it might not help others since not everyone will respond the same to this exercise.

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waler white
43 minutes ago, Angel Chav said:

There are several ways of progressing to muscle ups just like theres several ways of progressing to one hand pushups with feet together.For me pullups in the 20 rep range helped me do muscle ups,it might not help others since not everyone will respond the same to this exercise.

Yes there are several ways to obtain muscle up. However there are faster anf slower ways. While endurance training certaintly can works for obtaining muscle ups, it is not nearly as fast as strength training would be. 

Think of it this way Strength training increses maximum potential for endurance, endurance, strength and neurological efficancy.

Endurance may increase neurological efficancy but it will almost certaintly not increase strength of muscles. 

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Angel Chav
18 minutes ago, waler white said:

Yes there are several ways to obtain muscle up. However there are faster anf slower ways. While endurance training certaintly can works for obtaining muscle ups, it is not nearly as fast as strength training would be.

Think of it this way Strength training increses maximum potential for endurance, endurance, strength and neurological efficancy.

Endurance may increase neurological efficancy but it will almost certaintly not increase strength of muscles.

  I agree with you in certain aspects but not all since everyone has different fitness goals. When I did my first muscle ups my goal was to do muscle ups while also being strong thoughout my body(this includes having strong thighs) with a large amount of endurance in other sports, such as long distance running, long distance swimming, long distance cycling,etc. It would make more sense for my specific fitness goals to incorporate endurance in my workouts, but for others it would be better to do a different form of training. I do agree that weighted pullups can help with muscle ups, but you have to be very careful since I have known many guys get injured while doing weighted pullups since they are impatient and they did not take their time to progress in this exercise.

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waler white
21 minutes ago, Angel Chav said:

  I agree with you in certain aspects but not all since everyone has different fitness goals. When I did my first muscle ups my goal was to do muscle ups while also being strong thoughout my body(this includes having strong thighs) with a large amount of endurance in other sports, such as long distance running, long distance swimming, long distance cycling,etc. It would make more sense for my specific fitness goals to incorporate endurance in my workouts, but for others it would be better to do a different form of training. I do agree that weighted pullups can help with muscle ups, but you have to be very careful since I have known many guys get injured while doing weighted pullups since they are impatient and they did not take their time to progress in this exercise.

Of course there are many ways to achieve muscle ups and the method you used should work. I was simply stating, in strength training, one almost always gets stronger much faster than endurance training.(or ie moves on to the next progression faster) Assuming you lack strength for muscle ups, the fastest way to be able to do a muscle up is to increase strength. If you cant do muscle ups due to a lack of technique, endurance training may get you there the fastest. 

I know in this forum people are generally very worried about injury. While I am certainly not an expert, I am studying to be an personal trainer and will be going to occupational therapy school in a year and a half. I for instance can do a one arm pull up with an additional 20lbs and have never been injured. If you want to prevent injury, simply following structural balance, and listening to your body well and being careful should be more than enough to prevent injury until you get to high levels.

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Angel Chav
24 minutes ago, waler white said:

Of course there are many ways to achieve muscle ups and the method you used should work. I was simply stating, in strength training, one almost always gets stronger much faster than endurance training.(or ie moves on to the next progression faster) Assuming you lack strength for muscle ups, the fastest way to be able to do a muscle up is to increase strength. If you cant do muscle ups due to a lack of technique, endurance training may get you there the fastest. 

I know in this forum people are generally very worried about injury. While I am certainly not an expert, I am studying to be an personal trainer and will be going to occupational therapy school in a year and a half. I for instance can do a one arm pull up with an additional 20lbs and have never been injured. If you want to prevent injury, simply following structural balance, and listening to your body well and being careful should be more than enough to prevent injury until you get to high levels.

I think we both can agree that they are many ways to train for a muscle up,and the best way depends on your fitness goal.People are generally worried about potential injuries since they know injuries can happen to anyone,no matter how strong someone thinks they are.Prevention is much better than being injured,ask anyone who has been hurt before.Thats good that you want to be a Personal Trainer  and then a Ocupational Therapist,both are excellent career choices.I was a Personal Trainer for almost a decade(my most successful client lost 60 pounds of fat and gained +15 pounds of muscle under my training) and I am currently a Clinician.I still have lots of room to improve in calisthenics.

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waler white
3 hours ago, Angel Chav said:

I think we both can agree that they are many ways to train for a muscle up,and the best way depends on your fitness goal.People are generally worried about potential injuries since they know injuries can happen to anyone,no matter how strong someone thinks they are.Prevention is much better than being injured,ask anyone who has been hurt before.Thats good that you want to be a Personal Trainer  and then a Ocupational Therapist,both are excellent career choices.I was a Personal Trainer for almost a decade(my most successful client lost 60 pounds of fat and gained +15 pounds of muscle under my training) and I am currently a Clinician.I still have lots of room to improve in calisthenics.

Have you always trained mostly endurance for body weight exercises? 

Edited by waler white

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Angel Chav
12 minutes ago, waler white said:

Have you always trained mostly endurance ? 

I started training for endurance when I was in my early 20's.At first I hated endurance training but grew to love it since it helped me in freedive spearfishing(I mostly do beachdives).For pullups I mostly just do bodyweight pullups but do weighted pullups with an additional +50lbs every once in a while(I currently weigh over 200lbs).Use to do chinups with a 120lbs dumbbell when I was in my late teens/early 20's.

Edited by Angel Chav

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waler white
6 minutes ago, Angel Chav said:

I started training for endurance when I was in my early 20's.At first I hated endurance training but grew to love it since it helped me in freedive spearfishing(I mostly do beachdives).For pullups I mostly just do bodyweight pullups but do weighted pullups with an additional +50lbs every once in a while(I currently weigh over 200lbs).Use to do chinups with a 120lbs dumbbell when I was in my late teens/early 20's.

The world record for a weighted pull up is with an additional 1.05 body weight, with a one arm pullup typically being equivalent to 60-70% additional body weight depending on form, so an additional 120 is pretty good, not matter what weight you are. Beach diving sounds like fun. How long does it typically take you to increase weight or go up progressions with endurance training ? Have you ever considered rotating between strength and endurance ? You would definitely v progress faster than just endurance training.  (I could definitely rotate between strength and endurance, but I would never do size training because I do not want to be big)

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Alessandro Mainente
On 1/22/2017 at 0:42 AM, waler white said:

Keep in mind a muscle up on rings is most technique. In my expierience a muscle up on rings is not harder than a muscle up on a bar strength wise but much harder technique wise. 

I disagree, this means that with a proper technique everyone could do muscle up without problem, once someone perform the muscles up with a decent 6-7 second negative he/she understood the technique but he/she will never perform the concentric portion. the fact that there is no technique without physical preparation it is a fact.

The slow muscle up it is a physical preparation problem , no matter if performed on rings or on bar.

beginner do not train for muscle up, when you are ready you will learn the slow one first, swinging and accelerated movement are the last step of the puzzle.

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Leo Trinidad

As Alessandro said, strength first before all those plyometric/explosive work. You need proper foundations first. Prioritizing mobility and core is what I would advise.

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Angel Chav
6 hours ago, waler white said:

The world record for a weighted pull up is with an additional 1.05 body weight, with a one arm pullup typically being equivalent to 60-70% additional body weight depending on form, so an additional 120 is pretty good, not matter what weight you are. Beach diving sounds like fun. How long does it typically take you to increase weight or go up progressions with endurance training ? Have you ever considered rotating between strength and endurance ? You would definitely v progress faster than just endurance training.  (I could definitely rotate between strength and endurance, but I would never do size training because I do not want to be big)

Thank you.There are men that do much heavier weighted pullups than I have done and there is a good video online of a man doing a weighted pullup with 225lbs of additional weight at a bodyweight of less than 150lbs.The same man does one hand pullups with a additional 45lbs,which is extremely impressive to say the least.Have you seen those videos?I try to keep a balance between my strength,endurance,and calisthenics training,but there are times I put more emphasis on one of these depending on what my goals are at the moment.For example,I have a half marathon this Sunday so I have been focusing more on long distance running than powerlifting for the past 2 months.After this race I will still run,but I will focus more on strength training,calisthenics,diving,moderate powerlifting,and short runs(under 6.2 miles). 

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Jon Douglas
10 hours ago, waler white said:

 

I know in this forum people are generally very worried about injury.

I agree with most of what you've said here but this is not quite right.Prepping for ring straight-arm elements is completely different to handling bent arm movements, and half-assing it leads to traumatic experience at iron cross level or above. I can offhand remember three accounts on this forum that required surgery; it is not as simple as being worried about injury, I have thrown myself into some pretty ludicrous situations and picked up the pieces later :) cf. doing the first part of Hungarian with Coach in 2012.

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waler white
1 hour ago, Angel Chav said:

Thank you.There are men that do much heavier weighted pullups than I have done and there is a good video online of a man doing a weighted pullup with 225lbs of additional weight at a bodyweight of less than 150lbs.The same man does one hand pullups with a additional 45lbs,which is extremely impressive to say the least.Have you seen those videos?I try to keep a balance between my strength,endurance,and calisthenics training,but there are times I put more emphasis on one of these depending on what my goals are at the moment.For example,I have a half marathon this Sunday so I have been focusing more on long distance running than powerlifting for the past 2 months.After this race I will still run,but I will focus more on strength training,calisthenics,diving,moderate powerlifting,and short runs(under 6.2 miles). 

Thank you for the response and updating me. According to guiness, The world record in 2012 was an additional 207lb. 

Bodyweight less than 150 ? an additional 225lb pull up ? 45 lb? The updated world record is 225 by a guy who ways around 200. Are you sure you do not mean chinup ? It doesnt seem possible to be able to do that much weight at a bodyweight less than 150 and if he actually can, he should defintly should be able to go much heavier than 45lbs. 

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waler white
5 hours ago, Alessandro Mainente said:

I disagree, this means that with a proper technique everyone could do muscle up without problem, once someone perform the muscles up with a decent 6-7 second negative he/she understood the technique but he/she will never perform the concentric portion. the fact that there is no technique without physical preparation it is a fact.

The slow muscle up it is a physical preparation problem , no matter if performed on rings or on bar.

beginner do not train for muscle up, when you are ready you will learn the slow one first, swinging and accelerated movement are the last step of the puzzle.

You are right, I worded that very poorely. I meant It seemed to me, when I learned muscle ups on rings, they where harder technique wise than on a bar, but muscle up on bars was harder strength wise.  

Edited by waler white

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waler white
1 hour ago, Jon Douglas said:

I agree with most of what you've said here but this is not quite right.Prepping for ring straight-arm elements is completely different to handling bent arm movements, and half-assing it leads to traumatic experience at iron cross level or above. I can offhand remember three accounts on this forum that required surgery; it is not as simple as being worried about injury, I have thrown myself into some pretty ludicrous situations and picked up the pieces later :) cf. doing the first part of Hungarian with Coach in 2012.

I have a question about that. So whenever I do very heavy dips, one arm pullups ect my elbows will get sore but I have heard that does not get elbows ready for stuff like iron cross training. Why is that ? Do for instance, iron crosses put much more stress on your elbows than wide dips with well over double bodyweight ?

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Alessandro Mainente

absolutely yes. locked joint means that all the weight rests on tendon and joint capsule which moves across that joint and no matter how much you work on other joint degree. 

remember : JOINT PREPARATION AND CONDITIONING IT IS ANGLE SPECIFIC.

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Angel Chav
5 hours ago, waler white said:

Thank you for the response and updating me. According to guiness, The world record in 2012 was an additional 207lb. 

Bodyweight less than 150 ? an additional 225lb pull up ? 45 lb? The updated world record is 225 by a guy who ways around 200. Are you sure you do not mean chinup ? It doesnt seem possible to be able to do that much weight at a bodyweight less than 150 and if he actually can, he should defintly should be able to go much heavier than 45lbs. 

You are welcome.Yes he does pullups/chinups with a additional 225lbs and one hand pullups/chinups with a 45lbs plate at a bodyweight of less than 150lbs.

Edited by Angel Chav
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waler white
44 minutes ago, Angel Chav said:

You are welcome.Yes he does pullups/chinups with a additional 225lbs and one hand pullups/chinups with a 45lbs plate at a bodyweight of less than 150lbs.

I suspect he cheated for multiple reasons.

1)If he could do pullups with 225lbs at 146lbs he could go a hell of alot heavier than doing one arm pull ups with 45lbs. I have not done the equation but I think that means he would have the potential to do one arm pullups with over 100lbs which seems inpossible. and would beat that world record by over 50lbs.

2) He never weighed himself or the weights on a scale

3)If he is that strong he is significantly stronger pound per pound than anyone I have ever seen attempt it. Extordaniary claims require exteordoinary evidence. 

4) From what I remember of Mathew he likes to brag. If he actually could beat a world record I would be shocked that he did not get it verified, put in guiness book of world records ect.

Edited by waler white

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