Problems with winging scapula & back pain- suggestions?

[MCem222]

I've had winging in my right scapula for a few years now. I'm 17.

Its become a habit of mine to contract a muscle under my armpit, causing my scapula to wing, when I do pushing exercises, flex my arm, or push my arms toward the side of my body. For example, when I first started working out, I would do standing curls and try to keep my arm stuck to my side. In the process, my scapula winged out, and after the curls, I would get a dull aching pain in my upper back.

I get that pain when I do pushups or similar exercises (usually the severity and duration are correlated with my exertion; if I am really pushing hard, I will get a decently strong ache for 30-60 seconds after stopping). I tried working on the planche progressions outlined by Coach Sommer, but when I exert myself in an isometric hold like that, it always leads to upper back pain afterwards

The cause of this was never really straightforward until recently, when I realized it always happens when my scapulas wing. I'm seeing a chiropractor about this, and so far he has suggested wall angels and pushup pluses. I must have been doing pushup pluses incorrectly, because it lead to pain the next day.

So, could anybody suggest other exercises that can be done with minimal equipment to help this problem? If someone could even explain about the role of the serratus anterior and when it should be contracted, Id appreciate that. I find in everyday life, when I'm carrying stuff, or sitting down, my right arm goes to the side and my right scapula is farther out than the left. I realize it might take some time to correct, but it has really prevented me from working out

Thanks

[Neal Winkler]

The serratus doesn't cause the scapula to wing, it helps keep the scapula from winging.

Here's an updated version of the pushup plus.

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Otherwise, the following exercises work the serratus: http://exrx.net/Lists/ExList/ChestWt.html#anchor682036

Also, give Ido's scapular stabalization routine a try.

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[MCem222]

Alright, thanks

I'm a little confused, though. So, if the serratus anterior pulls the scapula in, what makes it wing?

Also, for the push up plus, I'm a little confused as to the range of motion. I realize the movement is supposed to come entirely from the shoulders and not from the elbows. I start down to where my torso is low and shoulders back, scapulas almost touching, and then rise up. Is the goal to rise up without winging the scapula at all?

[Jason Stein]

Mcem,

The serratus protracts the scapulae; you could have a winging scap because your serratus is weak. It is pretty common, at least in people without specific training, that the serratus is underdeveloped and so overpowered by the other muscles of the shoulders.

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[MCem222]

Ok

I'm still confused as to what is good and what is bad for correcting the problem. If I extend my arm and push on a wall, my scapula will wing without any motion involved. I'm presuming that is bad, because I get pain in my back when I push too hard

The push up + is supposed to be good, and in that, I am moving up and down in the pushup position without bending the elbows. However, in moving up, my scapula sometimes wings. It seems like to move up, either my scapulas wing, or my shoulder are pushing on my neck (and I can feel it in my traps). So should I get into normal pushup position, move down and push the scapulas together, then go back again without moving too far up? I know I'm over-analyzing everything, but thats just the person I am.

[Cole Dano]

One way to think about this is that you are trying to tense your sides.

The SA muscle is a strange one, it does a couple of important things. One is it protracts the shoulder blade, i.e. pulls it to the sides. That the easy part to understand.

The way it attaches to the shoulder blade is what makes it special, it runs UNDERNEATH the blade all the way to the medial edge (ie it covers the whole bottom of the blade and wraps to the inner edge.) So when it contracts it also pulls the inner edge back down to the rib cage.

So if as you read this sit straight and tense your sides a few times and feel the pressure it will put on the inner edges of your shoulder blades (part nearest the spine). Mentally connect that to the tensing of your sides. (In my classes i sometimes tell students to imagine they are holding a newspaper in their armpit)

Now in the exercise both things are happening the holding of the blade against the ribs and protraction on the way up retraction on the way down. So as you retract down you will feel the bottom tip of the blade slide from your side to your back very fluidly. While doing this continue to tense the side so the inner edge remains fixed on your back. To feel this as you sit here hold your hands in a fist near your face, elbows down. Draw the elbows toward each other, spread your blades, and open your elbows, retract your blades - keeping your sides strong and inner edge of the shoulder blades against your back.

If you can make this connection sitting, try it again with arms on the floor, if you can't make it happen there, it may be the SA hasn't got enough strength yet, so try it with hands on a chair or even leaning against a wall.

If you aren't able to do it all all, even sitting here as you read this, there is always the slight chance you have a pinched or damaged nerve, this you should have checked out by a professional in your area.

[MCem222]

Thanks Mr. Brady, your explanation made more sense than anything else Ive been told

When I say my scapula 'wings,' the inner edge of the blade rotates out until of staying in by the rib cage. I guess the serratus anterior is the muscle that keeps it from doing that. So, when I imagine pressing the newspaper to my body, my shoulder blade stays tight and flat.

I made the connection sitting, with retraction and protraction while keeping the scapula against the ribs. However, I still cant really do this in pushup position with the push up plus. Maybe its because sitting down, my elbows are near my hips, hands near my neck. This is sort of like holding the newspaper with my armpit. However, when I get into pushup position, and have to straighted my elbows in front of my body, I cant figure out how to contract my SA or keep the scapula from winging.

[Joshua Naterman]

I had this issue to a small degree, not as bad as you have it, in my right shoulder. I'm still working through it, but it's getting better all the time. Doesn't get in the way anymore. What I am doing is specific work with elastic bands, though you may find that if you have rings you can set them a few inches wider than normal and do suports. You'll have to squeeze your arms in towards your body and this may help you. It's helping me some. Most of my progress with this aspect of my shoulder problems is coming from the elastic bands. I will try to put up some sort of video. I wish I could explain some of the stuff, but it's hard and I am really, really tired.

[Cole Dano]

Usually that means the shoulder blade stabilizers aren't strong enough to support your body weight. It actually is quite tough in the arms out position, i'll save you and my fingers the explanation.

So if you can do it in the bottom push up position thats good. Work on the movement pattern exercise above reducing the load on a chair or even against a wall.

Slizard's way of using bands is also excellent lets hope he posts a vid! :wink:

[MCem222]

Most of my progress with this aspect of my shoulder problems is coming from the elastic bands. I will try to put up some sort of video. I wish I could explain some of the stuff, but it's hard and I am really, really tired.

That would be cool

Usually that means the shoulder blade stabilizers aren't strong enough to support your body weight. It actually is quite tough in the arms out position, i'll save you and my fingers the explanation.

So if you can do it in the bottom push up position thats good. Work on the movement pattern exercise above reducing the load on a chair or even against a wall.

Yea, today I video taped myself doing some things. I really have trouble not winging in the arms out position

What exactly did you mean by "work on the movement pattern exercise above reducing the load on a chair or against the wall"? Are you saying I should do some sort of pushup-plus-like exercise with arms in above reducing the load with arms out?

I might see a physical therapist to have a professional look at me. Until then, what would you recommend? Following Ido's routine?

[Cole Dano]

Most of my progress with this aspect of my shoulder problems is coming from the elastic bands. I will try to put up some sort of video. I wish I could explain some of the stuff, but it's hard and I am really, really tired.

That would be cool

Usually that means the shoulder blade stabilizers aren't strong enough to support your body weight. It actually is quite tough in the arms out position, i'll save you and my fingers the explanation.

So if you can do it in the bottom push up position thats good. Work on the movement pattern exercise above reducing the load on a chair or even against a wall.

Yea, today I video taped myself doing some things. I really have trouble not winging in the arms out position

What exactly did you mean by "work on the movement pattern exercise above reducing the load on a chair or against the wall"? Are you saying I should do some sort of pushup-plus-like exercise with arms in above reducing the load with arms out?

I might see a physical therapist to have a professional look at me. Until then, what would you recommend? Following Ido's routine?

If you can see a professional, the internet isn't really the best way to diagnose problems. Someone needs to actually see you, put there hands on you to help you past this point. What kind of professional is the next question. Perhaps a Physical Therapist would be a good starting point.

If you can't not wing with your arms out with no load it could mean a damaged nerve and this would need to be professionally diagnosed. You can google winging scapula to find some examples of this.

But yes, do the arm out exercise at a wall is what i meant.

[SWAGWARRIOR100196]

Dude  I have the same problem!  I hate it!  My scapula is barely winging but enough to stop my handstands.