The myth of dicipline

[Guest Ido Portal]

A true gem by Charles Poliquin. Nothing new, but maybe we all should read this article once or twice. A day...

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/Articles ... spx?ID=161

Enjoy,

Ido.

[Joshua Naterman]

Nice!

[Razz]

yeah, great article!

[Neal Winkler]

Charles Poliquin has stumbled upon the economic notion of revealed preferences.

[JL]

For me, I think that article is true. Some people seem to be motivated by fear, however. Fear of what everyone else's opinion of a winner or loser is. Those people don't seem as happy, and rarely get as far, though.

[Mats Trane]

Thanks Ido,

excellent article!

[Razz]

Think I realized something.. I love workout out more than school.. I also love sleep more than doing homework and I love shawarmas too much to take them out of my diet. Besides that just gotta be like Arnold "the pump is like an orgasm"

[Adrien Godet]

Personally, I am not so excited by what Poliquin writes here as it seems either oversimplified or oblivious to what psychologists and economists have to say about why people make the choice they make.

[Joshua Naterman]

I'm pretty sure that any psychologist or economist will agree that if you sit back and watch what people do and what they buy when presented with various choices, you will learn more about what they really want and what they really value than you will in conversation with them. There may be a number of mechanisms at work to arrive at the end result, but the end result is what matters to the economy, and physiologically speaking(in relevance to this thread) the end result is the gains, if any, one makes as a result of their training.

The reasons why people do what they do are irrelevant to the outside world. It only cares whether you meet the criteria needed to get a certain result or not. Your motivations and methods are irrelevant as long as you meet all the criteria. Psychologists make money because they attempt to help people change their motivations and methods from what they currently have to values that help the patient meet the criteria.

[Guest Ido Portal]

Albert Einshtein said: "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler."

I think this is a case in which things are made simple, not too simple.

I am not a big believer in traditional psychoanalytics (Freudian) anyways.

Ido.

[Adrien Godet]

Ido,

I was referring to modern developmental, behavioral and evolutionary psychology. You are more likely to find books about Freud in an history department than in psychology.

Satisfying solutions are indeed often simple, albeit sometime hard to find and to follow. It does not mean reality is not infinitely complex and there is no benefit in digging into it.

My post was meant as an opening to two fields who study problems closely related to Poliquin's article.

Slizzardman,

Understanding why people sometime make irrational, self-deceiving choices (as described in the article) in life or in training is far from irrelevant. It is the best way to avoid doing them.

Edit: A good and entertaining introduction to modern psychology is the open Yale video course found there http://academicearth.org/courses/introd ... psychology

[Joshua Naterman]

Slizzardman,

Understanding why people sometime make irrational, self-deceiving choices (as described in the article) in life or in training is far from irrelevant. It is the best way to avoid doing them.

Understanding why YOU make irrational, self-deceiving choices is the best way to avoid them. Understanding why I do them does not do much to help you avoid them, because chances are you're not going to be thinking about how Slizzardman made a stupid decision when he bought a car last year when you're buying YOUR car. The experience of others can be very useful, but in the end understanding yourself is the only way to change. Without that, all the understanding of others in the world can do you no good.

You're clearly burning to make a point that for some reason is very near and dear to your heart, as I sometimes do here as well, and in doing so, as I have done on occasion, you either missed or misinterpreted what I said. I said the world doesn't care, all it cares about is whether you do what has to be done for something to happen. If you put water in a pot, and turn the stove on, that water's not going to boil unless you put the pot of water on the burner. It doesn't care that your mom just had a stroke and that you had to spend half the afternoon holding your kid sister while she cried. You're still going to come home to a pot of cold water and a higher than necessary utility bill, unless your house burns down first. I specifically said that on a micro, therapeutic level, it's true that understanding these reasons are the key to change, but on a macro scale those reasons are meaningless.

Further, you could have the most screwed up and illogical thought process on earth, but if that thought process brings you to a point where you fulfill all the requirements for making strength gains then you're going to make strength gains. Results are about checks in the box. Helping people transition from not getting results to getting results requires helping them understand how they work so they can choose to change from what is not working to something that will work. That process doesn't matter on the macro scale. That's why there are different viewpoints. They all are valid and have to be considered as a whole. The micro scale isn't being discounted here, you're just making it out to be the most important thing, when it really only has its place, and nothing more, just as the macro does.

[Adrien Godet]

An experiment that could not be reproduced or imitated clearly does not need explanations. But that point is irrelevant to our lives.

Try to tell a physicist that it does not matter wether apples fall down because of inescapable subatomic forces or because of the will of some magic witch we could just bribe to make apples go up.

Try to tell somebody whose house just burned down that it does not matter wether it's some freakish accident or because you willfully burned it down.

[Coach Sommer]

I'm pretty sure that any psychologist or economist will agree that if you sit back and watch what people do and what they buy when presented with various choices, you will learn more about what they really want and what they really value than you will in conversation with them.

Excellent observation.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[slikric83]

the articles amazing! and interesting. thanks very much for posting it.

[slikric83]

Further, you could have the most screwed up and illogical thought process on earth, but if that thought process brings you to a point where you fulfill all the requirements for making strength gains then you're going to make strength gains. Results are about checks in the box. Helping people transition from not getting results to getting results requires helping them understand how they work so they can choose to change from what is not working to something that will work. That process doesn't matter on the macro scale. That's why there are different viewpoints. They all are valid and have to be considered as a whole. The micro scale isn't being discounted here, you're just making it out to be the most important thing, when it really only has its place, and nothing more, just as the macro does.

not to deviate from the article thats posted but the way i like to see is being great WHILE achieving ur goals/results/dreams whatever u wanna call it. The way i explain it you got two teams. they both make it to the superbowl. one teams got a horrible coach. a monster that screams all practice, every practice, all season. the other teams got a coach thats incredible. knows how to talk to the players, get the most out of them, reward them for the hard work put in, fun, jokes, inspiration, passion, love etc. both teams made it to the same place. but which team would u rather be on. I def know which team i would rather be on.

what im talking about is the journey. enjoying every moment. used to get real crazy wit things. sweat the small things. attached to having success and things. now more chill. been real hard on myself. now learning to be gentle. not attached to having anything. not doing anything for a reason. being in the moment. will not lie, the journeys been very difficult at times. there are contradictions. i learn so many new things everyday lately. so many battles. its incredible.

the two new philosophies for the year are "makes moves, not excuses." and "live today. tomorrow isn't a reality. life unfold moment to moment." may be useful for others. these words in the article are added too. beautiful as words but far more beautiful in action.

[Mark Weaver]

I don't agree that discipline is a myth. Yes, love is a powerful force, but love isn't a switch that is turned on or off as easily as that.

Admitting to myself that I love donuts, or whatever else it is, doesn't automatically erase my desire, craving, or addiction for something that's not good for me. Admitting to myself that what I really want is a certain physique, a certain level of strength, or the ability to do some particular skill, doesn't automatically instill in me a burning desire to workout that trumps the lingering desire to indulge in that donut.

People aren't perfect in that way, at least I'm not. I think discipline is what gets us from point A (I love donuts) to point B (I could care less about donuts and want to work on my handstands). My wife is completely un-tempted by a piece of cake, or donut, or anything else like that. I am not. So, she doesn't love them. I still have a lingering attraction.

How do I get to that point? Sit on my butt and say to myself "I don't love donuts, I love working out," over and over? No, I get up off my butt and work out. And I say no when presented with a sweet.

But what if I don't want to work out? Oh well, guess I don't really love working out, guess I shouldn't do those chin-ups because I obviously don't love them. No, I discipline myself and I do them.

Discipline, for me, means doing what I should be doing, instead of what I currently want, or love, to do. It means giving up what I want right now (maybe a donut, or maybe sitting on my butt instead of planche work) for what I really want, or for what I really want to be loving. The "what I should be doing" parts and the "what I really want" parts are things I have spent time thinking and meditating, pondering and planning about and for. They're not spur of the moment ideas, impulses, or passing whims.

It's very easy for my wife, or Pavel, in their position, to look at me and say, "how could you possibly want that donut more than finely chiseled abs. It must mean you love donuts more than abs." Well, duh! But what I really want, deep down, is to give up those donuts, and get those abs. You're at Point B, wife, and I'm at point A. Yes I have a desire to get to Point B, but I also have the natural tendencies of laziness and indulgence that come with being human. So I'll keep making the decision to work out when I don't feel like it, because when I'm actually working out, it's great. And when I'm done, I feel great! And I say to myself, "I love working out!" And the next day when I maybe don't feel like it, I remember how I felt when I was done the day before, and the decision becomes a little bit easier to make. And after a while I completely look forward to working out, and could care less about donuts.

On a completely unrelated note, since I'm to lazy to get on another thread (what can I say, I guess I love hijacking, and can't be disciplined, because it doesn't exist), and I just thought of it. When Uchimura does his triple twisting, double back, on that training video. The reporter guy looks at him and asks what he just did. Uchimura explains it, and the reporter asks, "that skill, is it humanly possible?" Uchimura looks at him and kind of chuckles and says, "I just did it." Hilarious.

[Joshua Naterman]

Mark, you are confusing your wish with your want. Your want leads to action. Your wishes lead to posts on a message board about what you really want, deep down. Wishes are desire. Wants are desire + action. Until you add the action, don't kid yourself into thinking you want something that you only wish you want. That's not meant to be an insult, it is meant to be a clarification. Semantics are important. Implications are important. Your word choices do not line up with your actions, and so they should be changed. You will find that once you change your self talk to be more accurate, you will have an easier time achieving your goals and moving from wishing to wanting. Until you acknowledge the difference you will be forever disadvantaged in your ability to accurately assess and restructure your life. That goes for everyone, including me.

I am well aware that I wish I wanted to fight professionaly, I am not deluded into thinking I actually want to. If I did want to, I'd be spending my time training for fighting instead of helping my girlfriend's sister tear down walls in their house. I'd be waking up early and stretching instead of sleeping in with my girlfriend. But I don't want that, I want to spend time with my girlfriend. That's how it is. I know what I wish and what I want, and it is vastly easier that way, because I no longer have the internal stress caused by denying the truth of the situation. Whether you notice it or not, it is there. When you step away from that into a more honest self-assessment you will be much happier and more relaxed.

[XXXIV]

The term "Love" in the article is a synonym for "want" / "desire" in the first way it is used. The other use is "build up". So, the two ideas presented are:

What you want/desire most is what you will do.

If you build yourself up, you will continue to get what you want/desire most.

The last idea in the article is:

Buy my product and you can have what you really want most too.

The idea that there is no such thing as discipline is rather silly.

In the article, he writes that he rewards himself for doing something he didn't feel like doing.

That is exactly how children are taught: reward desired behavior/allow unwanted behavior to have consequences that leave only the desired behavior as desirable (usually because it has a reward).

Over time, behavior changes to match that which is rewarded... that is discipline.

Self-control (a manifestation of love) is based on doing what is right because it is right... hmmm, if it is rewared, is it always right? Of course not. So, there are far more ideas to explore than simply doing what you want and rewarding yourself for it.

But, a well crafted advertisement in the popular medium. I feel like I would be rewarded by buying the workout and that it would mean I was loving myself and that it could continue without the need for discipline (which is what the underlying methods of rewarding myself actually is).

Self-discipline is a little tricky, because how do I know how to steer myself into a good life when what I want is usually determined by what I have been sold or influenced to want. Parental discipline is a bit tricky as well. Most discipline comes from society and without a sense of right or wrong, we can easily go on blissfully doing what we want.

In the context of gynmastic conditioning, whether I hang from the rings because I want 'ripped' muscles or simply to be strong enough to move my body without injury or pain, I hang there because I want to. What happens when I don't want to? I don't. Unless I am disciplined by the reward that is the end result of doing the work.

I recognize that much of this was posted in the discussion already, but where we agree... cheers... where we disagree... cheers... and on we go.

[DarrenG]

I'm not sure what I think about the article. Certainly, love is a great motivator, but it's not the only motivator. Some people choose between the lesser of two evils. They may hate healthy food, but they hate the thought of being a fat slob even more. I think Poliquin is using the word "love" but really just means "we choose what we prefer."

Also, it seems to me that discipline is still very real. True, if we have a burning love for something, we will tend to do it with ease and satisfaction. It won't feel like we have to discipline ourselves to act. But I've seen times where I really want an end result. I could say I have "love" for a path I'm on, though certain steps along the way can be very tedious or painful. In that instance, I can get extra motivation to persevere by focusing on the love for the end result, but often you just have to grit your teeth and grind it out to get through the short term. I tend to think of this as discipline. It is at these times that mental toughness or discipline matters, imo.

Slizzardman wrote:

"The reasons why people do what they do are irrelevant to the outside world. It only cares whether you meet the criteria needed to get a certain result or not. Your motivations and methods are irrelevant as long as you meet all the criteria. Psychologists make money because they attempt to help people change their motivations and methods from what they currently have to values that help the patient meet the criteria."

I think this is pretty much true generally speaking, however cold it may seem. But I'm not totally sure that motivations are completely irrelevant for a couple of reasons. In a training context, what you're really saying is it doesn't matter WHY you decide to do the 100 handstand pushups per week, the fact that you do them will build strength and ability, since you have met the criteria.

I would just be curious to know, for instance, if there is any difference in the gains one would make if they are motivated to do the 100 per week out of sheer love or otherwise positive motivation vs. one who does it with resentment because they feel they have to, or because someone is forcing them.

For all I know, maybe there is an actual difference in results (aside from the sheer factor of enjoyment in life and happiness). We are complex creatures. Maybe there are different hormones and brain chemicals at play given the type of motivation involved. Maybe we gain more when coming from a loving place. The same could be said if we're talking about studying instead of training. Maybe we retain what we're reading and integrate it more fully if we love what we're doing rather than just going through the motions. Maybe "checking the box" of various criteria is NOT all it comes down to.

The other obvious downside or risk when you simplify and think of it as merely meeting criteria to reach certain results, is the potential of developing damaging strategies to attain desired results. One can get really good at a skill because they are motivated out of sheer fear of failure, or by developing a neurotically based compulsion that can wreak havok on a person's life. The collateral damage can be severe.

I guess I just conclude that Poliquin is oversimplifying things, but perhaps striving to find love as the motivator is a more useful framework than some others.

[Mark Weaver]

Mark, you are confusing your wish with your want. Your want leads to action. Your wishes lead to posts on a message board about what you really want, deep down. Wishes are desire. Wants are desire + action. Until you add the action, don't kid yourself into thinking you want something that you only wish you want. That's not meant to be an insult, it is meant to be a clarification. Semantics are important. Implications are important. Your word choices do not line up with your actions, and so they should be changed. You will find that once you change your self talk to be more accurate, you will have an easier time achieving your goals and moving from wishing to wanting. Until you acknowledge the difference you will be forever disadvantaged in your ability to accurately assess and restructure your life. That goes for everyone, including me.

I am well aware that I wish I wanted to fight professionaly, I am not deluded into thinking I actually want to. If I did want to, I'd be spending my time training for fighting instead of helping my girlfriend's sister tear down walls in their house. I'd be waking up early and stretching instead of sleeping in with my girlfriend. But I don't want that, I want to spend time with my girlfriend. That's how it is. I know what I wish and what I want, and it is vastly easier that way, because I no longer have the internal stress caused by denying the truth of the situation. Whether you notice it or not, it is there. When you step away from that into a more honest self-assessment you will be much happier and more relaxed.

I'm not confusing my wish with my want. I completely understand the difference. I have wishes just like your wish to fight professionally. But I don't take them seriously, and I don't act on them. I do act upon my wants.

My point is that there's often an internal struggle to turn that wish into a want, to actually do the action and make that wish more than a wish. Sometimes we win that internal struggle, and sometimes we don't.

If you do change your wish of professional fighting into a want, that would be exciting to see! Based on your videos, you look like you'd kick some serious trash.

[breaker]

In my opinion, there is no such things as love. There are only thinking(imagination). We are what we think about. Imagination always win above discipline. Ideas leads to action. When we set some new goals, we must change our behaviour in some way to achieve them. But our old behaviours are our habits an we feel unconsciously really comfortable with them. But when we set new goals, choose new behavior (consciously) its create an conflict between the conscious and unconscious mind. The unconscious always win if we use only discipline.

For example we decide change our eating habit and eat only clean food without any junk food. But because we have an habit to eat junk food, we always imagine it, think about it (we imagine how tasty are the hamburgers,cookies,sweets, or we think like this: "I can't eat any more chips and cakes..........but it's the same because our brain dont know negation so we can't think about to not think about something without think about ) and we starving for some good old junk food. And because imagination always win, sooner or later we give up our discipline. But if we use our imagination correctly and if we think about what we want, not what dont want we dont need discipline.

Of course its not so easy to think about right thinks. But there is a small tip. We think always in patterns, for example: Is 5 pm, at 6:00 pm I have my workout, at 5:5 I check my emails,skype I got a lot of new messages,I start chating with friends (is 5:30), we start talk about some really interesting topic and suddenly start raining(5:50), in my room is good warm, I sit in my comfortable arm chair, have a good time on chat and suddenly became really uncomfortable to stand up an go to the gym.This was good example of "loose your discipline thinking pattern" . But when we break this pattern in the midle and start thinkin about our great workout, how we lift weights, improve our skills etc. its impossible to stay home in front of pc. To break our thinking pattern we can do different thinks, start jumping around, start laughing , or hurt you self a bit (for example with rubber band on your palm .

P.S. sorry for my bad english

[Zac Rhyne]

The Rings?

[Razz]

My simple opinion here is: it's a good article and if you dont TRY to confuse what he is saying by asking 10000 questions and trying to make what he says sound like something thats not possible then you will get the point of the article.

[Joshua Naterman]

An experiment that could not be reproduced or imitated clearly does not need explanations. But that point is irrelevant to our lives.

Try to tell a physicist that it does not matter wether apples fall down because of inescapable subatomic forces or because of the will of some magic witch we could just bribe to make apples go up.

Try to tell somebody whose house just burned down that it does not matter wether it's some freakish accident or because you willfully burned it down.

It doesn't matter in terms of results. If the apple goes down, no matter what the mechanism, the apple goes down. Maybe 11 other apples farted and it stank so bad that the poor apple passed out. Maybe the stove was left on and the house burned down and the apple cried so hard that it lost its' hold on the tree. This entire thread is based on an article that, itself, is based on observing the results of people's decisions. People can say whatever they want, and their actions will always show you what they mean. That's how it is.

When it comes down to MANIPULATING the mechanism with the purpose of CHANGING the result, THEN the reason for the result matters. That is not relevant to this thread, because we aren't talking about changing people's decisions, we are talking about recognizing one's true desires for what they are, and recognizing one's wistful fantasies for what THEY are.