Gymnast Ab Strength

[nilnip]

Hi, I'm new here and I am thinking of starting a gymnastic workout for myself. It seemed like a great way to build upper body strength. The only thing that was bugging me was something I read in Bullet Proof Abs by Pavel Tsatsouline. It wrote:

A few years ago James Garrick, M.D., tested the abdominal strength of the U.S. junior national gymnastics team. None of these athletes, whose muscle definition, according to Dr. Garrick, "strained belief", and a number of whom went on to represent the United States in the upcoming summer Olympics, could do five crunches!

Dr. Garrick, who happened to be the medical advisor to the NFL, the U.S. Figure Skating Team, and the San Francisco Ballet, correctly identified the problem: "It wasn't that they didn't have muscles... it was just that these muscles weren't functioning as back stabilizers. They were doing other things. When they were called into play... they weren't equal to the job."

Is this true? For if it is, I think I would be better off doing the ab exercises in Pavel's book than the gymnastic ones. Please give me advice from your experience.

[Razz]

Is Pavel talking about the janda crunches or whatever they're called? Obviously the gymnasts can do crunches haha... Gymnasts are probably some of the sportsmen with the best core strength

[Guest Ido Portal]

This is complete and utter bullshit, actualy, I have seen too many gymnasts doing too many crunches.

As for the Janda Situp, I believe 'it belongs to the junk pile of history, next to communism', as Tsatsouline likes to say...

Myth # 1: Pressed-Heel Sit-Ups are the bomb as they eliminate hip flexor activation.

The Janda sit-up has recently resurfaced as an effective abdominal exercise minus the hip flexor activation. Janda thought he solved the problem of psoas activation by calling on the principle of reciprocal inhibition, which says that the nervous system, as a matter of efficiency, relaxes the muscles opposite the ones contracting.

The Janda sit-up was designed to inactivate the hip flexors by contracting the hamstrings and glutes. Janda thought he accomplished this by grasping subjects' calves and having them pull back against his hands as they attempted to sit-up. The theory was, the hip flexors are inhibited by the contraction of the opposing knee-flexor hamstrings and the hip-extensor glutes. The end result, according to Dr. Janda, is true isolation of the abdominal muscles.

Well, according to Dr. Stuart McGill, a spinal biomechanist and professor at the University of Waterloo, the opposite actually occurs!

During the Janda (or pressed-heel) sit-up, contraction of the hamstrings causes hip extension, which means that even greater hip flexion (or psoas activation) is required to complete the movement. In addition, bent-knee sit-ups actually activate the psoas more than straight leg sit-ups! This was all confirmed through EMG analysis by Juker, et al., 1998. Myth # 1: Pressed-Heel Sit-Ups are the bomb as they eliminate hip flexor activation.

The Janda sit-up has recently resurfaced as an effective abdominal exercise minus the hip flexor activation. Janda thought he solved the problem of psoas activation by calling on the principle of reciprocal inhibition, which says that the nervous system, as a matter of efficiency, relaxes the muscles opposite the ones contracting.

The Janda sit-up was designed to inactivate the hip flexors by contracting the hamstrings and glutes. Janda thought he accomplished this by grasping subjects' calves and having them pull back against his hands as they attempted to sit-up. The theory was, the hip flexors are inhibited by the contraction of the opposing knee-flexor hamstrings and the hip-extensor glutes. The end result, according to Dr. Janda, is true isolation of the abdominal muscles.

Well, according to Dr. Stuart McGill, a spinal biomechanist and professor at the University of Waterloo, the opposite actually occurs!

During the Janda (or pressed-heel) sit-up, contraction of the hamstrings causes hip extension, which means that even greater hip flexion (or psoas activation) is required to complete the movement. In addition, bent-knee sit-ups actually activate the psoas more than straight leg sit-ups! This was all confirmed through EMG analysis by Juker, et al., 1998.

Ido.

[Joshua Naterman]

Hi, I'm new here and I am thinking of starting a gymnastic workout for myself. It seemed like a great way to build upper body strength. The only thing that was bugging me was something I read in Bullet Proof Abs by Pavel Tsatsouline. It wrote:

A few years ago James Garrick, M.D., tested the abdominal strength of the U.S. junior national gymnastics team. None of these athletes, whose muscle definition, according to Dr. Garrick, "strained belief", and a number of whom went on to represent the United States in the upcoming summer Olympics, could do five crunches!

Dr. Garrick, who happened to be the medical advisor to the NFL, the U.S. Figure Skating Team, and the San Francisco Ballet, correctly identified the problem: "It wasn't that they didn't have muscles... it was just that these muscles weren't functioning as back stabilizers. They were doing other things. When they were called into play... they weren't equal to the job."

Is this true? For if it is, I think I would be better off doing the ab exercises in Pavel's book than the gymnastic ones. Please give me advice from your experience.

HAHAHAHA!!! Well, I really think Ido said it best.

I can personally tell you that the gymnastics ab work is far, far harder than most non-gymnastic ab work. I come from a nongymnastic background, and I built incredible ab strength with a progression from heavy decline sit ups to heavy inverted sit ups and finally to... wait for it... BODY LEVERS. A gymnastic exercise. Now at the time I was on a ship in the middle of the Indian ocean, so I had no idea anyone else was doing these. I was just looking for harder and harder things, and I ended up doing these on a back extention bench. I was doing inverted situp with 75 lbs for 15 reps. yea. That's ridiculous. I could barely do 5 reps with my boots on, and my abs hurt so bad that I had to take my time getting out of bed for 5 days. I started doing those almost exclusively and I can tell you that I never did crunches as part of my work out but have always been able to do them. Furthermore, I read Pavel's book and tried the Jandas. 15 reps my first try. I'm not buying that crap about the gymnasts.

Having said that, I do like how my back feels with the jandas, and they ARE hard, eventually, but they can't compare to body levers.

[Razz]

Yeah Janda situps are not a challenge, at all, imo. I bet I can knock out 15+ reps even with my untrained core atm. Harder than normal situps for sure but still no biggie and for sure these national team gymnasts could do 5 or should i say 50?

[Coach Sommer]

A few years ago James Garrick, M.D., tested the abdominal strength of the U.S. junior national gymnastics team. None of these athletes, whose muscle definition, according to Dr. Garrick, "strained belief", and a number of whom went on to represent the United States in the upcoming summer Olympics, could do five crunches!

Complete and utter nonsense. No basis in reality whatsoever.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Joshua Naterman]

Complete and utter nonsense. No basis in reality whatsoever.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Now THAT'S comedy.

Thank you nilnip for the comedy If you want to get a strong core, train the gymnastic progressions.

[Blairbob]

http://books.google.com/books?id=em49QHg6gaQC&pg=PA185&lpg=PA185&dq=James+Garrick+gymnastics+national+junior&source=bl&ots=sAxUp69tXD&sig=MsuCqPFe8S1vdoiZp5NXouYtiTM&hl=en&ei=zFAxS5DFEpGasgOP_tG5BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

1. Said author does not state what gender the gymnasts were.

2. Gymnasts had not been trained to do "curl-ups" the author was big about so of course they probably weren't doing them right.

[Nick Van Bockxmeer]

"anytime you use your hips in an exercise, you shortchange your abdominal muscles"

personally I disagree, no reason why you can't be using both to a high degree, thats like saying pull ups arent a good bicep exercise because they work the lats as well.

[nilnip]

Thank you for the replies. Judging from the huge disagreement, I think I know which program I should be doing. I shall start my training soon.

[Neal Winkler]

nilnip,

The crunches in the book Blair links to are much different than what is normally thought of as a crunch and they are not janda situps.

The guy says you have to have a posteriorly tilted pelvis and do a six count up, hold for six, and then six down. This is the test he claims the gymnasts failed.

If the story is true, all it means is that the training of these gymnasts did not transfer to this specific exercise. We have to remember that training imparts a specific stimulus to the body.

Because of this specificity, you cannot make conclusions such as, "X gymnasts could not perform 5 curl-ups, therefore 5 curl-ups is better than any gymnastics core exercises."

I'd very confidently make a bet that if you trained some athletes to perform 5 curl-ups like described in that book, that they would not be able to perform body levers, front levers, cranks, 360 pulls, ect. So why can't I conclude that gymnastics is now better than curl-ups? Do you believe that performing these curl-ups will allow someone to perform those exercises with no previous practice?

If you want to know whether or not you should perform the curl-ups or Coach Sommers core exercises, then you need to look at your specific goals and chose exercises that are most appropriate for acheiving those goals, i.e. chose exercises that have the most transfer for performance in your chosen endeavour.

[Neal Winkler]

BTW, I just performed 5 of Garricks curl-ups just like he describes in the book. It was starting to burn and I was a little shaky, but I did it no problem.

Also, keep in mind that Coach Sommers junior athletes are BY FAR the most physically conditioned gymnastics athletes in the entire USA, and it is his system that we are following here, not he system of the athletes that Garrick tested.

[Razz]

However it was still junior national team so one must assume they are nearly as good

[Blairbob]

Razz, it still could have been the girls, under Bela. So who knows. Which is exactly why the author stated it that way as he has to offer no accountability to his statement.

[Razz]

Yah true dat Blair, don't think I didn't agree that the statement was invalid btw

[Neal Winkler]

The main point for me is that you can't make arguments of the form, "x athletes could not perform y exercise involving z muscle, therefore y exercise is better than any exercise used by x athletes for z muscle."

I guarantee that someone who trained to do the 5 curl-ups that also never did any type pf lever would be unable to perform even a straddle lever let alone something like 360 pulls.

Arguments like the one above are simply fallacious. But that doesn't stop people from finding exercises that cause people to fail so they can claim the superiority of that exercises for all things.

[Blairbob]

And this is why so much of the Exercise Science world is ignored by the Personal Training/Strength training world. Look at all the different certifications out there.

[Charles Weill]

I can't hate on Janda sit-ups too much, in fact I spent an entire summer working on their progression before I got into BtGB. I feel they definitely prepped my core for levers. Then again, I also found it funny how he claimed the Bruce Lee "dragon flag" was the toughest abdominal exercise he knew, when they are considered a "1-star" difficulty Body Lever in BtGB.

Plus Pavel is my homeboy. Had I read Coach Sommer's book before his, I would have dropped it and ran. I read all his books, but I feel they are targeted towards a broader audience than GB is. Power to the People!

The Ab Pavelizer FTW. I hate to think I almost bought it!

[Joshua Naterman]

I made my own pavelizer. I have to say, I am unimpressed with the pavelizer II. I made one of those as well and that exercise just doesn't do anything for my athletic abilities.

[Longshanks]

I didn't rate Pavel's stuff before, seems he's just a profiteer who capitalised on the fact that you tense your core during any big exercise and it makes you a lot stronger, then he dragged that principal out into a who book. I have even less respect for him now and it was hard to get any lower to be honest.

[Cole Dano]

I didn't rate Pavel's stuff before, seems he's just a profiteer who capitalised on the fact that you tense your core during any big exercise and it makes you a lot stronger, then he dragged that principal out into a who book. I have even less respect for him now and it was hard to get any lower to be honest.

I'd say that a little harsh. You have to look at the audience and the VERY sad state that physical culture is in today. When the basics have been so poorly misunderstood someone has to bring them back to life. That's what Pavel has done. The same abdominal pressurization has been used for ages in yoga (in addition to de-pressurization!) but most people just don't get it. I talk about lifting the pelvic floor, squeezing your anus and i still get giggles or blank stares.

Sure its simple if you know it, but some one has to teach it. Pavel's work is an excellent bridge into the work being done here, the man deserves some credit, so what if he's made some money doing it?

[Coach Sommer]

I didn't rate Pavel's stuff before...

Pavel is one of the few true gentlemen that it has been my pleasure to be associated with.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Cole Dano]

I didn't rate Pavel's stuff before...

Pavel is one of the few true gentlemen that it has been my pleasure to be associated with.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Wonderful to hear that, he certainly comes off as a true gentleman whenever i've come across him on line, and confirmed by one of the other true gentlemen out there Coach Sommer!

A most important quality!

[Joshua Naterman]

I have a number of his books, and I personally think that A) his Russian-ness is awesome, and b) he honestly has the best instructional kettlebell video in existence. I like his style.

[Mr.MJR]

One gymnast from my gym can do over 50 full leg lifts on stall bar so.... :roll: yeah he probablu can't do 5 crunches