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Dion Kardaris

Rotator cuff prep for advanced ring strength

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Dion Kardaris

Hello everyone,

 

     I could not find information in old threads on this, but does anyone have advice on how to best condition the rotator cuffs for skills like inverted cross, Maltese, and Victorian? I ask because I just got back to training from RC tendonitis. My body is quite odd, I was able to train planchet, cross, and Maltese very hard without issue, but when I added inverted cross training to my regimen I caused injury. 

 

My physical therapist informed me that the inverted cross position is extremely unstable and that lead to injury. I have since rehabbed and have a full shoulder routine I run through before rings work, but if anyone has any secrets to advanced shoulder stability, I would much appreciate it.

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Alessandro Mainente

HI Dion , your situation it is pretty common when there is a not proper preparation. probably the inverted cross it is not the real cause, it is only the last piece of the puzzle. I talk for my experience, before beginning the GB journeyat the seminar  in the early 2010 I had shoulders problem during a basic muscle up on rings or support. Now I can tray 2-3 times a week without problems. what I've done?

1-restored my shoulder girdle mobility so that my stabilizer could work properly, exerting forces on the correct direction. this phase took to me about 4 years. can you do bridge? can you do perfect german hang? 

2-improve the shoulder girdle stabilization. this is not really possible without completing the previous point simply because tight muscles can cause a restriction on how stabilization forces are exerted during certain directions. can you do a cuban press with 50% of your bodyweight?

3-specific and gradual approach on rings.

We have many products working on mobility like stretch series for upper body and products that give a good amount on preparing the shoulders.

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Dion Kardaris

Hi Alessandro, thanks for the reply. Both my bridge and German hang are decent, and I am constantly working to improve shoulder mobility, which according to my pt is actually quite good.

Cuban press as in the weightlifting exercise? If so, I do not believe I can. Would it be beneficial to do some of that in my training?

One technique I just learned is swinging in a German hang on rings. Start small, but work it up and a round of ten swings works very well to warm up and stretch my shoulders. 

My pt said there are three aspects of healthy shoulders: strength, active flexibility, and control. He also said where my RC was strong and flexible, control was off, and assigned specific exercises to improve control. In an unrelated note, the human body is fascinating!

Edited by Dion Kardaris
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Alessandro Mainente

You are welcome to post your bridge , your german hang and your handstand in order to have a more professional feedback about your mobility .

I'm sorry but if you are experimenting shoulders issue then your shoulders are not okay.This problem is linked to improper preparation. it is like to say "i have bicep tendon problem, but my pt says that i'm ready for cross". no, you are not ready.

If you cannot perform the cuban press (you can find it on youtube) with half bodyweight then i'm not surprised by your shoulders problem. Rotator cuff conditioning it is a stable process of shoulders preparation. I'm sorry but if you are experimenting chronic problem like tendonitis you should consider that your PT does not have the necessary knowledge to prepare yourself for advanced rings strength elements. if you fail on holding healthy shoulders, your PT failed, not you.

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John Koliopoulos
23 hours ago, Alessandro Mainente said:

HI Dion , your situation it is pretty common when there is a not proper preparation. probably the inverted cross it is not the real cause, it is only the last piece of the puzzle. I talk for my experience, before beginning the GB journeyat the seminar  in the early 2010 I had shoulders problem during a basic muscle up on rings or support. Now I can tray 2-3 times a week without problems. what I've done?

1-restored my shoulder girdle mobility so that my stabilizer could work properly, exerting forces on the correct direction. this phase took to me about 4 years. can you do bridge? can you do perfect german hang? 

2-improve the shoulder girdle stabilization. this is not really possible without completing the previous point simply because tight muscles can cause a restriction on how stabilization forces are exerted during certain directions. can you do a cuban press with 50% of your bodyweight?

3-specific and gradual approach on rings.

We have many products working on mobility like stretch series for upper body and products that give a good amount on preparing the shoulders.

I thought I might ask the experts right here aswell as I am experiencing something similar.

My right shoulder sometimes is slightly irritated exactly at the insertion of the long head of biceps during support holds in the rings and if I do too much volume on the rope. For back levers, HSPU, press HS, military press, planche I do not feel anything. I have up to now just avoided (over)training these movements but it hasn't gotten any better. When I internally rotate, I have a slight clicking, I don't know if this is related however.

I can perform dislocates (both grips) with 5kg at shoulder width plus a fist each side, have bridge and open HS. Reading your posts, I would think I am just too weak in stabilisation.

I would really appreciate your opinion. Cheers!

20151210_164954.jpg

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Alessandro Mainente

Actually your bridge it is not good as you think:

-asymmetrical hands position

-internally rotated hands means that you are trying to find a shortcut to improve the shoulders flexion

-asymmetrical hands rotation, this means that one side is more locked then the other one

-hands too wide, bridge should be performed with hands next to the ears

-chest must be positioned past the wrist and not behind them.

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John Koliopoulos
2 hours ago, Alessandro Mainente said:

Actually your bridge it is not good as you think:

-asymmetrical hands position

-internally rotated hands means that you are trying to find a shortcut to improve the shoulders flexion

-asymmetrical hands rotation, this means that one side is more locked then the other one

-hands too wide, bridge should be performed with hands next to the ears

-chest must be positioned past the wrist and not behind them.

Thanks for the tips, this picture is nearly a year old I have refined my bridge slightly since. But I still internally rotate the wrists, I never knew this was wrong so thank you :)

Regarding the original question, do you think the shoulder irritation is just weakness in stabilization muscles or is it a mobility issue?

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Alessandro Mainente

mobility and stabilization are highly connected, if a muscle has some limited range of motion due to tissue restriction how you can think it can work properly? in fact range of motion must be restored first then there is the work for improving active stabilization.

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Coach Sommer

Hello Dion and John,

The issues you are both encountering are simply the result of insufficient physical preparation for the level of ring strength training you are attempting to engage in.  As a result you are constantly running around trying to deal with a whole range of small physical irritations and minor injuries.  

This is not merely an issue of trying to avoid too much volume in your training.  The simple truth is that these problems are going to continue until you go back and build the proper physical foundation.

This is not to say that you cannot continue to get some work in on the rings.  However I would recommend that your ring strength training become a secondary focus during the last 5-10 minutes of your workouts while the vast majority of your training focuses on correcting your current strength/mobility deficits.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

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John Koliopoulos
20 minutes ago, Coach Sommer said:

Hello Dion and John,

The issues you are both encountering are simply the result of insufficient physical preparation for the level of ring strength training you are attempting to engage in.  As a result you are constantly running around trying to deal with a whole range of small physical irritations and minor injuries.  

This is not merely an issue of trying to avoid too much volume in your training.  The simple truth is that these problems are going to continue until you go back and build the proper physical foundation.

This is not to say that you cannot continue to get some work in on the rings.  However I would recommend that your ring strength training become a secondary focus during the last 5-10 minutes of your workouts while the vast majority of your training focuses on correcting your current strength/mobility deficits.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Thank you for your input coach, I just think it is strange that a very simple exercise such as a ring support hold can start irritating the shoulder at the level I am currently at. I guess I will have to further increase my efforts in mobilizing/strengthening the shoulder and hope it subsides.

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Coach Sommer

Hi John,
 

Quite often what is perceived as shoulder pain is actually an issue with the biceps tendon.  Especially on rings.

Ring strength supports are actually highly biceps intensive.  A lack of biceps strength or biceps mobility or both can easily cause a simple exercise like this to become an irritant to the biceps tendon.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

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Dion Kardaris

Thanks to everyone for all the input. Since I did not have any issues with planche and cross training, can I still work on those positions? And would working Japanese handstand on the ground prepare my shoulders for inverted cross work further down the road? I am taking a step back and strengthening my planche before doing much in other positions, so hopefully this will help.

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Everett Carroll

The secrets to shoulder health are in the basics. I recommend you work on and master mobility and basic strength before you proceed with advanced ring training. You will be better off over-preparing with the basics, like the stretch courses Alex mentioned, than getting injured again.

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Mats Trane

Do Table rocks and Shoulder extension pulls on a regular basis. Excellent exercises to mobilize and strenghen the shoulder girdle and bicept tendon.

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