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Guest Ido Portal

Gymnastics and bodyweight S&C - supperior to weight lifting

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Neal Winkler

I'm not denying that hormones have an effect on muscle growth. The lack T in women is the reason they don't grow as big as men.

What is in question is whether or not a little elevation for 30 minutes post exercise will cause more growth than no elevation.

No one has proven that it does, and I challenge anyone to provide a study which shows this. For all these years that people have spoken about the neuroendocrine response, the fact of the matter is that its hypertrophy enhancing effects have been a mere unproven assumption.

Furthermore, injecting someone with roids raises CHRONIC levels of testosterone, and this accounts for increased muscle growth, whereas the neuroendocrine response is an ACUTE (30 minute) effect. This is a significant difference which makes the two cases unanalogous.

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Joshua Naterman

I don't understand how a 30 minute spike and return to normal is possible since the half life of testosterone is, on average 2, hours.

Having said that, I would be willing to bet that any endogenous hormone spikes play a minimal role in growth, and it would probably take a multi-year study to get clear results. I don't think that will be happening.

As for proving it, it would be far easier to disprove it more conclusively by ordering the trials in the manner I suggested a few posts ago. The hormones are in your blood, and hit your whole body. Any effect they have will be exerted on all trained tissues( I know, it affects others too but that's not the point of the study) and therefore constitutes a legitimate confounding variable, which makes the study a poor choice for evidence. I'm not saying it's wrong, you know. I have no idea. I'm saying that they allowed a variable to be present that could conceivably alter the results and obscure the true mechanism(s) at work.

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Neal Winkler
I don't understand how a 30 minute spike and return to normal is possible since the half life of testosterone is, on average 2, hours.

I don't know if that is right or not, but it apparently has no affect on the concentration of T in the blood, post workout. Just look at any study on the subject, and that's what you see (30-60 minute). The study above is an example.

Having said that, I would be willing to bet that any endogenous hormone spikes play a minimal role in growth, and it would probably take a multi-year study to get clear results. I don't think that will be happening.

It's easy to make a bet when the proof of something, according to your standards, will never come to be. :P

As for proving it, it would be far easier to disprove it more conclusively by ordering the trials in the manner I suggested a few posts ago. The hormones are in your blood, and hit your whole body. Any effect they have will be exerted on all trained tissues( I know, it affects others too but that's not the point of the study) and therefore constitutes a legitimate confounding variable, which makes the study a poor choice for evidence. I'm not saying it's wrong, you know. I have no idea. I'm saying that they allowed a variable to be present that could conceivably alter the results and obscure the true mechanism(s) at work.

The authors talk about this in the first study I noted (free text available). Did you read their justification of the study design?

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Joshua Naterman

:lol: I know, I love easy bets!

Yea, I read their justification. I'm not saying it isn't sound, but they are in a way reinforcing my point. We know that hormones affect tissue. If, as they say, there is a separate effect(s) at work (which I believe to be true), then the hormones must be influencing things separately. If this is so, and the hormone spikes are present, and the hormones affect all bodily tissue(all statements that we know to be true), then the hormones will affect the tissue to some degree even when post workout MPS is back to baseline. The hormones could be causing extra growth. They did not isolate that.

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Neal Winkler

As long as you don't tell anyone, "Ya bro, squats and deads flood your body with anabolic hormones, so if you want your arms to grow, do squats man." Then I will feel my work here is done.

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Joshua Naterman

HAHAHAHA!!! Agreed!

They do seem to help, but I think that anyone who's serious enough to squat heavy is going to be working other things hard too.

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griffdrc

highly trained athletes tend to have lower basal testosterone levels and higher acute spikes...

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Quick Start Test Smith

This is a wonderful thread. I am thoroughly impressed with the maturity and knowledge of Slizzardman, Ido Portal, BlairBob, Coach Sommer, Trianglechoke, and most of the other posters (with the exception of one or two :wink: ). I commend all who have contributed to this great discussion for a job very well done. Sometimes I wish that such threads as this one could be cleaned up and then published in a big book for ease of reading. That would be a dream come true. :!:

I doubt anyone remembers me, I was one of those forum members who joined, asked a question, and (seemingly) disappeared. I say seemingly because although I have not often been back to this forum after getting some of my first questions answered, I have never ceased to pursue physical development or knowledge. I have read numerous books, watched numerous videos, and read hundreds of articles on athletic training since I was last here. I've read/watched stuff from Ross Enamait, Alwyn Cosgrove, Mike Boyle, Joe DeFranco, Zack Even-Esh, Charles Poliquin, Martin Rooney, Matt Wiggins, John Chaimberg, and countless other people on T-Nation. Needless to say, my pursuit of knowledge has led my back here (to my delight and benefit). I'm glad to be back.

Anyway, my main point is that although I have a HUGE amount of interest in getting into acrobatics, stunts, and gymnastic type training eventually, I am, first and foremost, a martial artist (Tang Soo Do practitioner to be exact), and my training must be directed towards advancing my martial arts skills. I am one hundred percent convinced that gymnastics type bodyweight training can strengthen and condition my upper body up to and beyond the degree that martial art requires. But Ido Portal mentioned that gymnastics are probably not sufficient for LB explosive power development and lists a few examples of possible exercises (viewtopic.php?p=20349#p20349).

This is where I became confused. Does he disapprove of adding certain lower body weighted power exercises to a fundamentally gymnastic style routine? I know I am misreading his writing, but it seems like he is contradicting himself...

A very wise person wrote earlier that staying simple and following the WODS for a month would be a great plan of action. I plan to follow this advice and start doing the WODS (scalling down 99.99% of the time obviously :wink: ). I will be sure to keep a journal and log all my progress and workouts. In a month of two, I will look back and see if I've improved and if my martial arts abilities are improving as well (which is the main point of my training).

Since I am a Tang Soo Do practitioner and I focus heavily on my kicking skills, I will add isometric (P.N.F.) stretches and kicking specific strength exercises twice a week. Other than that, depending on your replies (especially regarding your replies to my question two paragraphs up), I will stick to the WODS. They do include endurance/conditioning work, don't they? I should probably add my own sports specific conditioning drills...

Patrick

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Cole Dano

I certainly can't speak for Ido, but there does seem to be a general consensus that weighted leg exercises can be subbed in on the leg WOD days. Generally Gymnasts don't want heavy bulky legs but for martial arts work this isn't an issue so long as you don't go so big as to loose speed.

There is no reason you can't successfully combine your training with the WODs. One way to look at them is as modules in your training routine. You can add your mobility & prehab work, and any specific flexibility and conditioning work as you see fit. In general the WODs will fit nicely into a two session per day program, so say on a WOD day doing it in the morning and at the dojo in the evening.

There is also some room for flexibility with the scheduling, i have found that for my schedule and body that doing WODs twice a day works well, one in the morning and the other in the evening. This gives good recovery time and frees the other days for my other practice. I don't always manage this but have notice it works for me when i can. Some times it turns to one two WOD day and two one WOD days. Or i wind up only doing three per week.

That said, i think it is smart for at least one cycle to commit to the program as written just to get used to it, there is a learning curve, and this will make the first WODs you do take longer, as well there is a how can i do this exercise with the equipment i have on hand curve. That is unless you are fortunate enough to practice in a gymnastic gym.

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Joshua Naterman

Patrick:

Your lower body conditioning must reflect what you want your lower body to be able to do. Gymnasts need to be able to absorb an enormous amount of force when they land during dismounts and high tumbles, the vaulters specifically need to have excellent explosive power and reactive ability to get the most out of the springboard, and the floor guys need to be able to absorb the impact of their tumbling runs and quickly transfer their body's movement from down to up within a fairly small range of motion relative to the lower body joints.

That's pretty specific stuff. For you, you are going to need speed, speed, and more speed. Flexibility and joint stability have to be there so you don't wreck your hips and knees with bad technique or the inherent applied forces that are a part of even good technique. You're also going to need to be strong enough in the various impact zones to reflexively deliver the vast majority of force into your target and not reabsorb it through your leg.

There are a lot of exercises in BtGB that are going to benefit you directly for these purposes but you are probably going to use them far differently than you will see in the WODs, at least most of the time. You're also going to want Ido's squat clinic!

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Quick Start Test Smith

Thanks for the response, Mr. Brady!

You are right about martial artists and gymnasts. In my opinion, there are actually three major concerns regarding bulky legs (particularly if you are in a martial art that involves extensive kicking). The first is that the more bulk you have, the more you have to work to move it around (although you will have more power behind your strikes (power formula - F = (m x v^2)/r ). There's no way to get around this problem, although there are exceptions like Brock Lesner are bulky yet manage to maintain speed. The second problem is that of stamina, the more effort it takes to move, the harder it will be to maintain stamina. The third problem is flexibility. Many kicking techniques require the full ROM of the knee joint to take full advantage of power and speed (i.e. roundhouse kick - heel to backside), and having huge hamstrings and calves will not help.

All the same, there is a lot of merit in lean bulking to a minor degree. In MA styles like Muay Thai, which constantly involve leg kicks, having extra muscle mass on your legs will help prevent injury tremendously. It is also in keeping MT's kicking style. TSD or TKD, for example, have dramatically different kicking styles (less power swinging, no leg kicks) and would not require much muscle mass.

I don't want to hijack Ido's thread, but please join me for discussion at my thread here: :arrow:viewtopic.php?f=18&t=4858

Thanks!

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Quick Start Test Smith
Patrick:

Your lower body conditioning must reflect what you want your lower body to be able to do. Gymnasts need to be able to absorb an enormous amount of force when they land during dismounts and high tumbles, the vaulters specifically need to have excellent explosive power and reactive ability to get the most out of the springboard, and the floor guys need to be able to absorb the impact of their tumbling runs and quickly transfer their body's movement from down to up within a fairly small range of motion relative to the lower body joints.

That's pretty specific stuff. For you, you are going to need speed, speed, and more speed. Flexibility and joint stability have to be there so you don't wreck your hips and knees with bad technique or the inherent applied forces that are a part of even good technique. You're also going to need to be strong enough in the various impact zones to reflexively deliver the vast majority of force into your target and not reabsorb it through your leg.

There are a lot of exercises in BtGB that are going to benefit you directly for these purposes but you are probably going to use them far differently than you will see in the WODs, at least most of the time. You're also going to want Ido's squat clinic!

Hi, Slizzardman. I greatly appreciate the insightful reply.

I practice TSD (much like TKD or Karate) and it requires a great amount of explosiveness at a blink of an eye. My legs must be able explode into motion without building up a lot of momentum.

I agree with you regarding joint stability and flexibility. I am working on both (I actually have PPS). I will definitely check out Ido's squat clinic. I don't know if you've heard of Jim Smith (Diesel Crew), but he's supposed to be an expert on warming up. I've been using his Shawn Phillip's total body warm up for the last few workouts, and my knees have felt great.

Sorry for the brief reply, I am in huge hurry and I do not think I do your post justice. If you would, please read the thread I linked to in my last post and give me your thoughts and recommendations.

Patrick

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