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Thrive Nutritional Pyramid


Jeff Serven
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Keilani Gutierrez

it's more or less the same protocol I've been implementing and the results are hard to be dissatisfied with. :)

I've also cut down on the "anxiety" not knowing about nutrition creates. which is really nice. people can comment on my meal and im unaffected, especially if i can see the concept they're rebutting.

I agree with Zach, the bit on speaking on the quality(especially the time some of this stuff spends on the shelves) in relation to fish oils was refreshing and how grains contain varying amounts of phytic acid that binds to nutrients. solid post. I live on an island culture and can very much tell when a fish was caught by its freshness. i HATE frozen fish or fish that has been store for upwards of a week.

 

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Eva Pelegrin

Jeff,
Well said. Whole foods. Cut the crap and thrive. How do you do that? by feeding your soul.

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Jon Douglas

Thoroughly enjoyed that and like the perspective of looking at how we are addressing everything from the ground up

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Mark Schoenhard

A good musician knows what notes not to play.  I like how your pyramid accounts for leaving out the bad notes.  Sweet music..

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Ryan Bailey

Powerful and succinct, I liked the real food examples as well. Nice jeff! When is the next blog post?

I also liked the point about timing carbs at night and sleep.  Just had some sweet potato with dinner... good night ;)

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Coach Sommer
44 minutes ago, Mark Schoenhard said:

A good musician knows what notes not to play.  I like how your pyramid accounts for leaving out the bad notes.  Sweet music..

Very nicely articulated, Mark.  

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

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Douglas Wadle

Hi Dominik,  I'm not sure whether you didn't read the article you referenced, or perhaps were selective in arriving at your pre-desired conclusion.  The take away point, I believe, is that phytic acid is found in grains, beans, and nuts.  It is not necessarily a bad thing, as it does have antioxidant properties, however, it also impairs absorption of positively charged cations, like magnesium, calcium, zinc, cadmium, etc.  Cooking removes the plants natural phytases (enzymes that break down phytic acid) and so the effect is more pronounced.  If you cook w/ garlic and onions, they are also being cooked, and thus will lose their phytase activity.  If you eat them raw, awesome, and more power to you, but all plants in their natural state with phytic acid have their own phytases to break it up.   Also, the impact of all this is really only theoretical, as studies have not been done except in pigs and in vivo.  one can extrapolate from certain cultures, that those with high phytic acid intake have more deficiencies in zinc, iron, etc, but that could be confounded by many things.  It seems an interesting topic, but one that cannot be assumed to mean too much at this point in time.  a lot of healthy foods contain phytic acid, so it seems wise to be aware of it, and consider eating some raw vegetables to counteract its possible effects.  Also, sprouted and germinated products have activated their phytase and already degraded much of the phytic acid.  Again, however, we don't really know if that's important or not.  

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Jeff Serven

Dominik,  

I have to say I agree with Douglas on this one. Can you send me a copy of the full study? I only read the abstract which is about useless but I will address your comments below. 

1) What whole grains are associated with health benefits? Do those health benefits outweigh the negatives? Namely gluten and phytic acid? Don't say bread because it was allegedly whole grains that were crushed then sat around and probably grew mold then mixed with a dozen other not so great ingredients and finally made to allegedly "whole grain bread" by cooking which destroys what little nutrients where in there in the first place. I'm very interested in exactly what whole grains have health benefits that far surpass their negatives? 

2) I will agree with you that the "evil anti-nutrient" argument is exaggerated. Namely by Paleo folks. They condemn potatoes, rice and bread all to call an almond a super food when the almond has more phytic acid than bread, rice or potatoes. Phytic acid does have its place in our diet in the correct amount. All living plants have phytic acid in them and my opinion is you are getting plenty with the Thrive style of diet which does not include grains. 

It has been suggested, not shown, that phytic acid may have health benefits. You over state that point. Further the reference you make is to cancer. So, unless you have cancer this statement is useless. 

3) Can you define partially inhibit? I think what you mean is 1 serving of grains will not deplete 100% of your zinc, iron, etc. Why I'm not a fan of grains is because when people proclaim grain heath benefits they quote the nutrient numbers of raw grains which are toxic. Once cooked no longer toxic but also no longer nutritious. If you eat a meal with grains you can pretty much guarantee any amount of zinc in the gut or at that meal will be chelated(removed from body). That is the definition of a "a net negative food in my book" 

4) Anytime a food is a "net negative in terms of nutrients" and you need to add something to it to make it "net neutral" you have a loser food on your hands. By you even suggesting the garlic and onion is you saying that you are acknowledging grains are a net negative food and onions and garlic make them less of a net negative. This just isn't good enough for me. 

5)  In your second post you link an abstract that says "Bioavailability of micronutrients iron and zinc is particularly low from plant foods." Isn't that exactly what my blog post says? Further to my point; my blog post says there is less of a requirement for zinc when grain is absent in the diet, so your supplement money can go further to things like D3 or even DHA. Something hard to meet the optimal levels of on a daily basis. 

Dominik I look forward to your response. Thanks for your input. 

To everyone else. Thank you as well. Great comments and opinions. 

Cheers,

Jeff

 

 

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Karen Zanon

It's important to focus on the big picture rather than all of the minutia.  It really comes down to improving your nutrition by choosing nutrient-dense foods over processed foods and sugary snacks and beverages.  We should applaud someone for choosing to eat whole grains or potatoes over something less nutritious and incomplete. Maybe they opted for whole grains or a potato instead of Lucky Charms cereal or a doughnut. 

Furthermore, if you consume any alcohol at all, engage in recreational smoking or drug use, or eat any processed foods (and yes, protein shakes are processed foods too), get off your high horse and quit using scientific journals to make your opinions carry more weight.  Until you have reached the pinnacle of nutritional excellence and, like a plant, you get your sustenance from water, the land, and sunlight alone, debating over gluten, phytic acid, and supplements is foolish and hypocritical.  

Quit judging and start supporting people for the better choices they do make.   

For the record, I do support Thrive and any program that helps people make better food choices.

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Jacob Morsbøl

First, I think @Karen Zanon got a really valid point.

Second, even though I agree on Karen's point I really do not believe this 'grain averse' approach. For sure, some are sensitive to gluten and some have coeliac disease. In particular the latter should avoid gluten - thus grains - by all means. However, as far as I understand the 'sensitive' part can eat some gluten without any digestive problems but they will indeed have digestive problems with too much grain consumption. The question is then what is too much?

On the other hand there is a lot research that indicates an inverse proportionality between the consumption of (whole) grains and both some cardiovascular diseases and some types of cancer.

Furthermore a homemade sandwich made with whole grain sourdough bread or open sandwiches on (real) rye bread is both delicious, nourishing, satiating and convenient.

I don't know the debate on phytic acids.

 

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Ryan Bailey
2 hours ago, Jacob Morsbøl said:

Furthermore a homemade sandwich made with whole grain sourdough bread or open sandwiches on (real) rye bread is both delicious, nourishing, satiating and convenient.

I don't know the debate on phytic acids.

Jacob,

I am glad you brought up rye bread. I make an oldschool, rye sourdough occasionally, as it takes a couple days to make and ferment.  I wonder about the use of this grain in this way as:

- I think it has lower gluten,

-and accompanied by the bacteria, I wonder about any modifications to phytic acid through this process, 

-does this preperation and use of grain provide beneficial gut bacteria?,

-or does fermentation of rye still take away zinc? 

I have heard about longer cooking and a reduction of nutrients, but what about the long fermentation process that causes the grain to add vitamins and act as a vessel in the meal for new sourdough bacteria?

I have many questions about this fermentation method (as I do enjoy it) of using grains, especially rye, as the research seems to be grey in this area, but also different from the typical negative benefits of grain use that seems to be discussed.  Any answers? Is this a junk food?

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Jeff Serven

In my blog post I talk about "Modern Trends in Nutrition" and collagen being one. On Facebook someone said they will just stick with their bone broth, awesome! Anther hot topic in this category is probiotics, I mention them in the blog too. People read "probiotics are good" then they read "fermented stuff has probiotics" so they assume anything fermented is now good. But does that mean all fermented products are good? Sourdough bread, poisonous mushrooms? Lactobacillus acidophilus is the most popular and most researched probiotic stran. But not all versions of lactobacillus acidophilus are "good" for you. So the question is what is the gut ecology you are after? Do you want to be really good at breaking down grains? or heathy fats(don't say both)? A gut that is "optimized" to ferment grains (being they cant be digested with human enzymes) is not one that lends itself ancillary benefits. Have you ever googled "leaky gut"? 

The delusional idea there is such thing as "whole grain" bread only exist in the kitchen of Ryan and Douglas. Do not make the mistake in assuming your bread stated off as freshly picked whole grains that were crushed into a flour (with nothing else added at this point) then mixed with other "whole" ingredients and freshly cooked. When you read your bread label if it says "flour" at any point you know its not whole grains. Further do you know the requirement for a bread to be labeled "whole grain"? Its not truly 100%.

http://wholegrainscouncil.org/whole-grains-101/existing-standards-for-whole-grains

Jacob your comment about sensitive people being able to eat gluten with no problem is confusing. Gluten is  pro inflammatory for 100% of human beings. The more sensitive you are to it the more inflammatory it is. Remember low grade chronic inflammation is associated with 7 of the leading 10 causes of death. 

Kate if you are so upset at the detail I go into to try to understand this is not a hobby for me. I am a United States Navy SEAL and a NFL/NHL Strength Coach, at this level the slightest mistake is unacceptable. In the pros everyone is "doing their best", results are what really matter here. So after the the basics(big picture) is ironed out we seek out that extra 1% of performance then that extra .25%, it never ends. Further this is a sub forum to discuss nutrition and its very cool that there are analytical people in here who request more information such as studies and various other links. However, I do agree in applauding people for starting a journey down the road of good nutrition. 

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Jacob Morsbøl
2 hours ago, Ryan Bailey said:

I wonder about the use of this grain in this way as:

- I think it has lower gluten,

-and accompanied by the bacteria, I wonder about any modifications to phytic acid through this process, 

-does this preperation and use of grain provide beneficial gut bacteria?,

-or does fermentation of rye still take away zinc? 

[...] Is this a junk food?

@Ryan Bailey I only know the answer to the first and the latter of your question. The answer to the first is: Yes, rye contains less gluten. But a very important feature about rye bread is that is taste real good - if it's properly made and fresh. The answer to the latter is debated. However, I have yet not seen any convincing argument that can categorize (properly made and fresh) rye bread as 'junk'.

I would love discussing rye bread, sourdough, fermenting of other than grains. I'm from Denmark, which - according to me - is where the real rye bread is made, so I have access to some great recipes on both rye bread and sourdough. However, I think this is off topic.

1 hour ago, Jeff Serven said:

Jacob your comment about sensitive people being able to eat gluten with no problem is confusing. Gluten is  pro inflammatory for 100% of human beings. The more sensitive you are to it the more inflammatory it is. Remember low grade chronic inflammation is associated with 7 of the leading 10 causes of death. 

[...] Further this is a sub forum to discuss nutrition and its very cool that there are analytical people in here who request more information such as studies and various other links. However, I do agree in applauding people for starting a journey down the road of good nutrition. 

I request more information such as studies that supports the claim that gluten is pro inflammatory for 100% of human beings.

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Jeff Serven

Jacob,

The burden of proof is on you. You are the one that came in here and said;

1) "the 'sensitive' part can eat some gluten without any digestive problems"

 Can you please provide some more information on this? Its my understanding that Gluten sensitive people do in fact have a reaction to gluten in any amount. 

2) "there is a lot research that indicates an inverse proportionality between the consumption of (whole) grains and both some cardiovascular diseases and some types of cancer."

Once again, produce that "a lot of research"

3) Furthermore a homemade sandwich made with whole grain sourdough bread or open sandwiches on (real) rye bread is both delicious, nourishing, satiating and convenient.

Can you point me to the study or anteing that say if you put your own sandwich together its more heathy than if a Sub Way employee does it?

 

In the interest of not wasting time. Here you go

Scandinavian Journal of Gastroenterology, 2006; 41: 408 Á/419
Gliadin, zonulin and gut permeability: Effects on celiac and non-celiac
Objective. Little is known about the interaction of gliadin with intestinal epithelial cells and the mechanism(s) through which gliadin crosses the intestinal epithelial barrier. We investigated whether gliadin has any immediate effect on zonulin release and signaling. Material and methods. Both ex vivo human small intestines and intestinal cell monolayers were exposed to gliadin, and zonulin release and changes in paracellular permeability were monitored in the presence and absence of zonulin antagonism. Zonulin binding, cytoskeletal rearrangement, and zonula occludens-1 (ZO-1) redistribution were evaluated by immunofluorescence microscopy. Tight junction occludin and ZO-1 gene expression was evaluated by real-time polymerase chain reaction (PCR). Results. When exposed to gliadin, zonulin receptor-positive IEC6 and Caco2 cells released zonulin in the cell medium with subsequent zonulin binding to the cell surface, rearrangement of the cell cytoskeleton, loss of occludin-ZO1 protein Á/protein interaction, and increased monolayer permeability. Pretreatment with the zonulin antagonist FZI/0 blocked these changes without affecting zonulin release. When exposed to luminal gliadin, intestinal biopsies from celiac patients in remission expressed a sustained luminal zonulin release and increase in intestinal permeability that was blocked by FZI/0 pretreatment. Conversely, biopsies from non-celiac patients demonstrated a limited,transient zonulin release which was paralleled by an increase in intestinal permeability that never reached the level of permeability seen in celiac disease (CD) tissues. Chronic gliadin exposure caused down-regulation of both ZO-1 and occludin gene expression. Conclusions. Based on our results, we concluded that gliadin activates zonulin signaling irrespective of the genetic expression of autoimmunity, leading to increased intestinal permeability to macromolecules.

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Ryan Bailey

Jeff, (quick food item topic shift)

Since we are talking about solid foods that make up the base of the pyramid, may I ask a question about greens, especially in regards to preparation?  I have read some about oxalic acid in greens and have been thinking of this question for a while. I am specifically referring to a book all on greens I have by John Kallas, PhD in nutrition. He mentions the oxalic acid content of greens typically do not negatively impact healthier individuals, and I have also heard cooking helps to reduce these crystals. I myself eat raw salads, and cooked greens in eggs ect. and like all these.  Do you have recommendations for greens preperation, or does this not matter much in your experience regarding performance.

Thanks

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Jeff Serven

Ryan,

Good question.

First everything has a weakness and a strength. The ratio is what matters most. In the specific case of greens, their strengths far outweigh their weaknesses. Obviously I feel the exact opposite of grains.

Greens - cooked and raw both have strengths and weakness. In some cases cooking greens is beneficial because it breaks down the plants thick fibrous cells walls making digestion easier and increasing the bioavailability of some nutrients. On the flip side some of the heat sensitive nutrients are diminished. 

Thats why as you know I am a fan of both cooked and raw which is outlined in Thrive. By balancing cooked and raw greens you are getting the best of both worlds. 

As to your specific question of oxalic acid. I think its easy managed with the Thrive approach and is nothing to worry about. 

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GoldenEagle

Generally speaking, my "Food" pyramid is Fruits, nuts, grains, vegetables.

Here is the shortened version of a previous post on my day to day food.

Breakfast- Two or three servings of instant apple cinnamon oatmeal, mixing in a tablespoon or two of ground flaxseed or flaxseed meal, made with apple juice, water, or plain almond milk.  I typically drink a glass of water and or some fruit juice. Plus a serving of either Odwalla's Superfood, or Naked's Green Machine.

Lunch: An Amy's non-dairy bean in rice burrito with a glass of water. Sometimes I have two black bean and brown rice burritos from Chipotle.

Pre-workout: A Chocolate brownie Cliff bar

Post workout protein shake: is made with an eight ounce serving of chocolate almond milk and sometime four ounces of plain almond milk. The protein powder I use is made by HealthForce or AmazingGrass

Dinner/Supper: Amy's, low sodium, lentil soup with the following spices added habanero powder, garlic powder, white sage, ginger powder, and a tablespoon of chia seed. On top of the lentil soup is a handful of raw spinach. Underneath the lentil soup is a bedding of spelt grain, rye, and flaxseed bread.

I sometimes have a handmade "Cheese" pizza that I make myself.

Snacks tend to be any of the following: Five medjool dates with some dark chocolate, one or two handfuls of a raw nut trail mix(Almonds, peanuts, walnuts, cashews, sunflower seeds, pieces of fig, raisins, and coconut flakes)
 

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Jacob Morsbøl
15 hours ago, Jeff Serven said:

Jacob,

The burden of proof is on you. You are the one that came in here and said;

1) "the 'sensitive' part can eat some gluten without any digestive problems"

 Can you please provide some more information on this? Its my understanding that Gluten sensitive people do in fact have a reaction to gluten in any amount. 

2) "there is a lot research that indicates an inverse proportionality between the consumption of (whole) grains and both some cardiovascular diseases and some types of cancer."

Once again, produce that "a lot of research"

[...]

Scandinavian Journal of Gastroenterology, 2006; 41: 408 Á/419
Gliadin, zonulin and gut permeability: Effects on celiac and non-celiac
Objective. [...]

First of all thank you for that reference. I might be spending some times reading it but thank you.

Second, nope. ''The burden of proof'' is not on me.

I don't want to participate in this kind of discussion. I am no scientist, doctor or educated in nutrition. I'm an enthusiastic amateur! It would be ridiculous for me to attend a discussion on research papers.

However, as I said in my comment i do not ''believe'' in your recommendation. Hence I wasn't saying you're necessarily wrong. Grain consumption can mess your guts. But it is not hard to see, that among doctors, scientist and so on there is much debate on this negative effect of gluten consumption among non-celiac. There might be debate on the positive effects, too. This however is not that obvious. I might be biased though.

Third, to keep it short. That you can bring some articles showing some evidence does not necessarily mean that a recommendation of 'avoiding gluten by all means' is good. Try search on Google Scholar for 'grain consumption meta analysis'. It will most probably result in several articles indicating that the net effect of consumption of (whole) grain is associated with lower risk of some types of cancer, some types of cardiovascular diseases and maybe even contribute to a stable weight. That I can bring some articles neither mean that you should 'consume grains by all means'. It just points out that it might be more complicated than so.

IMO avoiding grains is impractical and tedious. And as long as the argument for avoiding it isn't more convincing and I neither am obese nor gluten sensitive I think it is hysterical to avoid it.

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Coach Sommer
7 hours ago, Jacob Morsbøl said:

.

Jacob,

1) I am not interested in the slightest in what 'you believe'.  And yes the burden of proof is indeed on you.  You can either support your position factually.  Or you can't.  

2) Too inconvenient for your lifestyle does not impress me either.  This is simply another excuse for why failure to get your nutrition dialed in is acceptable.   And here at GB, failure to put forth best effort is an automatic no-go.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

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Travis Widmann

Jacob, come on. You ask for research evidence and it's provided. When the same is asked of you, you say no, you don't want to do that, and admit to being an amateur, but still insist you know better than the professional and continue to talk generally about research without citing any. It's "probably" there, you say. Great, thanks.

What you're saying is avoiding grains is too tedious for some people to carry out effectively. Yes, I agree. Our effort will match our interest in the results. For some people that last 5% is not worth the work. No harm in that, as long as you don't expect those results without that work. I think we'd also agree that for nutrition to be sustainable you ought to add the good before you restrict the bad. Worth noting that's how Thrive is designed.

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Jacob Morsbøl

My first claim is that there exists people that are non-coeliac gluten sensitive (NCGS). This can be seen in this study that shows that there indeed exists some people in the general population with symptoms of irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) and that these symptoms might be due to gluten sensitivity. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.ep.fjernadgang.kb.dk/pubmed/22825366

 

My second claim is that there exists people that have coeliac disease. This I think we all agree on.

 

My third claim is that NGCS can eat some grains without digestive problems. Well, first the bestseller book by Giulia Enders states this. At least in the danish translation. In danish it is called ’’Tarme med charme’’ in deutsch it is called ’’Darm mit Charm’’ in english i (think) it is simply called ’’guts’’. I admit this is somehow a weak source. Thus, maybe this claim is not that strong. I admit that. I'll withdraw this claim.

 

My fourth claim is that consumption of whole grain is associated with positive effects. As already stated there is a lot research on this. And I never stated that there ’probably was’ some. There IS some. One search on Google Scholar gave me the following without even ’’going to page 2’’:

 

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01635589809514647

 

http://www.nmcd-journal.com/article/S0939-4753(07)00002-6/abstract

 

http://www.bmj.com/content/343/bmj.d6617

 

If you are interested my google word was ''meta analysis grains consumption''. I have not read the full articles as I just wanted to show how easily it is to find research papers supporting my claim. But I’ve read the abstracts. They are all meta-analysis so they are kind of ’’net effects’’ by looking at several studies. I consider that as a very good property since experimental design might is more or less ''subtracted''. The first article supports the hypothesis that whole grain intake might reduce risk of some types of cancer. The second supports the claim that whole grain intake might reduce risk of some types of cardiovascular diseases. This is done on epidemiological cohort studies. This might be a weakness but the overall message from the researchers is pretty clear.  The third one supports the claim that whole grain intake might reduce risk of some types of cancer.

 

I have read and discussed this with researchers in Denmark. This is on danish but I will borrow some of the references. I will only borrow from this blog-post by a danish researcher. The following is on danish: http://www.kropblog.dk/gluten-sensitivitet-kill-your-darlings/ and http://www.kropblog.dk/kropblogs-anmeldelse-af-de-nye-kostrad/. Now here is what I will borrow. First, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17556700 which is a large population study showing that whole grain intake is associated with positive effects. Here is another, http://www.healthmegamall.com/Articles/BabeskinArticle269.pdf. They are both in the Iowa Women’s Health study, thus they may have the same limitations. The last article I will present to support this claim is http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3700229/. Another population study. Now, to comment on these three population studies. They are pretty big. Thus, the risk of having selection bias due to non-representative selection is low. They show that consumption of whole grains is associated with positive effects including a reduced risk of both some types of cancer and some types of cardiovascular diseases. They are done with participants from the general population. Thus, I think that if eating some whole grain was that bad they would have seen it.

 

My fourth claim is that ’’the burden of proof’’ wasn’t mine. OK! I admit this might have been wrong. But as far as I can see Jeff do not proof any claim that grains is bad in his blog post which led me to my claim. But I’ll withdraw that claim.

Comment: I wrote this in a Word document. I don't know how to change the formatting in this forum. Sorry for that. I editted it twice in order to produce this comment.

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