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Started by Jeff Serven, January 11, 2016 · 63 Replies · 1,955 Views

fnp

Sorry, i've been busy with work, then acrobatic training straight afterwards.

 

1. I've read the article! And thank you for it. A very interesting blog.
I'm interested in permaculture since a few years, but currently have no land.

2. To begin with: I am opposed to the utilitarian perspective. For me its an unethical approach to ethics. Its an attempt to measure justice through arithmetic means, whereas love, happiness etc. are not arithmetical at all. It follows the same febrile logic as the doctrine of capitalism. But i am sure, a socio-economical or political discussion here would be even more inappropriate as a ethical discussion on vegetarianism. ;-x I know how discussions about vegetarianism/veganism tend to escalate. I don't want to start any quarrel about it. I am not here for ethical disputes. I had them all the time, too much of them. I am here for movement, and for personal improvement and discipline in the realm of nutrition, within the ethical limitations i set for me. : )

 

[ the not so important point 3.: It's quite clear, that we don't want to force our ethics in our circumstances on anyone who lives in other circumstances, in which he cannot follow this ethics. No rational Hindu says to an Eskimo: "Stop to live, fool, if you cannot live vegetarian!" Whether he can live in his actual circumstances (his environment etc.), change them, or cannot live therein or cannot live at all - this is his decision. The question, what humanity 'in general' should do for its own survival (and it's clear that they can't and must not do the same everywhere, but different things according to different 'needs' and possibilites), serves not as a sufficient measure for actions of any individual. Further, what one should do, for sure depends to some point on what one want to do and how he want to live. A decision may be unusual or even unpractical in the eyes of many. For example: "No, i do not want to clean the courtyard with a broom or rake, i want to pick up every single stone and straw with my hands!" The people say: "What do you do there, idiot? Are you stupid? You'll need dozens of hours, this is nothing but a waste of time!" But, depending on his perspective, it's not stupid at all. First: He feels joy, while he's doing it, like a child. How could that joy be stupid? Second, maybe he takes it as an exercise, is doing good squats for every stone, which he pick up, under the sun, in fresh air, or romping around like a monkey, training his upper body (ido portal like^^). Third, he may perform his work as ascesis (not to confuse with penitence or mortification), i.e. e.g. as an exercise to strenghten patience and humility. Fourth, possibly, while he is doing this outward simple work, within he may be contemplating, so he could be very productive in this way. ]

4. So, short: Still i decide to eat no meat.

 

5. As you promised, you will answer my questions to the best of your ability: You could give me your thoughts about quinoa and chia seeds as protein sources, on algal oil concerning DHA etc. And: You will know, there are others here, who are deeply into veganism and most likely, they would never change their diet for whatever arguments. What do you say them? I hope, you would not refuse to work with them, because they are 'ignorant of the evidence concerning the value of animal products for the sound functioning of the body' or something like that. ;-) I hope you can accept their (and so mine) starting point, maybe thread them as sick or mad people (i will not be miffed about that^^) and help them, that their bodies will function as good as possible, in spite of their self-imposed limits.

 

6. Again sorry for any grammatical errors here, i'm learning it.

 

7. I hope your reference to hitler and himmler (not even consistently vegetarian) was only a macabre joke.. ;-)

El Chino

Awesome post FNP, well articulated. I have to pretty much agree with everything you said.

 

Jeff, I read the blog you linked and thank you, it was an extremely interesting read. I have been a vegetarian for a year now and I made the transition from meat eating mainly due to my feelings about factory farms. I have nothing against other people choosing to eat meat though as long as they did away with the whole factory farm business model of rearing animals. Even the author of the article agrees that they should be done away with. On the other hand, I still eat eggs and was very happy for you to describe them as almost a perfect protein source!

 

So my question to you Jeff is will us veggies/vegans still be able to move forward to the end with the GB Thrive program? Or will we remain on the fringes only managing to utilise some of the program to our benefit? I'd like to think we could go as far as any meat eater could in terms of nutrition enhanced performance but if the science says otherwise then I am still ok with that. I would rather live my ideals and not quite be the best I could than have to compromise and have my conscience eat at me all the time.

Jeff Serven

FNP - A simple "yes I still want to be vegetarian" would suffice 

El Chino - "Suspect 002"

 

Before nutrition I must share my perspective on how I approach anything. I always look for the most logical approach. Getting from point A to point B is not good enough, I want to do it with the least amount of moves, least amount of gear and maximum efficiency. As long as I know there is some logic behind your reason to be different than me, I'm cool with it.

 

Thanks for sharing your POV. I don't agree with it but I will do what I can to help you nutritionally to the best of my abilities. 

 

As far as nutrition goes I think you guys can all see my point of view clearly. I am about optimal. And, however that looks is how I eat. I don't conform to any one school of thought like primal, paleo, low carb or whatever. Again, all I care about is what is optimal. So what Im trying to say is; I don't care if you are a veggie, I just want you to eat the most nutritious things you can. With the caveat that some of the most optimal things are not vegetarian. 

 

Optimal and reality seldom align. In your case of not eating meat you will not be getting the optimal which the earth has to offer but then again there are many meat eaters who aren't either. 

 

I can tell you I am not an expert on vegetarian diets. But, I can share with you some key concepts that you will be missing. 1) B12 - Do you currently do anything for that? 2) DHA - There is a full self sustaining eco system in Spain that produces allege - this stuff is perfect for you, they are all "herts and minds" too 3) Lucine, iso-lucine and valine - consider some sort of BCAA - you will need one with B6 as well. Try that to start. 

fnp

Hey Jeff, thank you for your comprehensive answer. I know, i should've make it shorter. But i don't wanted to leave you with your plea to read the article and a statement that i consist on my vegetarian diet without any further commentary. I love to share perspectives, every perspective someone gives me, enriches mine.

 

Your statement "I don't conform to any one school of thought like primal, paleo, low carb or whatever. Again, all I care about is what is optimal." i consider as very cool and rational. So it should be for a nutrition coach. :)

 

B12 is available, for example, in some cheese like camembert (more than in eggs i believe). But additionally i take hydroxocobalamin or methylcobalamin capsules. Vegans should do that anyway. If i am not wrong, science considers that, for example, indian vegetarians normally have no lack of b12 because of the different hygiene standards in india and the presence of required microorganisms on their vegetarian food.

I don't understand the herts and mind phrase? Can you link me this self sustaining eco system in spain? Sounds good. I will search for a BCAA+B6 supplement. Thats what you suggest, isn't? Will do that. : )

 

And your thoughts about quinoa and chia seeds?

DBeckerman

Going well so far and simple enough changes that I can implement even when starting Thrive on holiday!

Jeff Serven

FNP - Your answer was great! I was just messing around with ya' about how long it was. I thought it was a good read. 

 

You are absolutely correct about the B12. You had mentioned in an earlier post you eat cheese. Yea, that works but you will still have to focus on keeping those numbers up. The way I see it supplements are a bonus, not there to patch holes in the diet. Make sure you are getting enough. 

 

I don't know about indian vegetarians and B12. What I can tell you is one persons adequate levels of B12 is not my "optimal" level of B12. Generally when studies are done they consider sufficient B12(or any other nutrient) the amount needed to not get dementia. Optimal is a whole different number. 

 

"Hearts and minds" - its a saying, its like saying they are touchy feely too and they care about the animals. I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head - I will get back to you. 

strme

All fine. Half educated for breakfast right now. i eat eggs i eat raw vegetables. But I use to add rise ,potato or bread. So i continue with that. Is this ok? I know, we need to wait this is not all. I just answering you :)

Jeff Serven

STRME - Im not exactly sure what you are asking, correct me if Im wrong. You are on Step 2 right now eating a heathy fat for breakfast and vegetables with dinner and you want to know if adding potatoes or bread to dinner is okay? As long as they are real potatoes then yes thats great. The instant kind is not a potato.  - Let me know if I got it right. 

Colm O'Shea

I assumed I could have cooked carbs (potato/rice) with my evening veg--my question is about lunch. Is lunch meant to be all raw, or can you mix in cooked carbs so long as you have your full raw salad also? 

strme

Jeff your answer is fine for my question. I need to wait with more questions because looks like course is not finished :)

vinca_minor

1 week for me. So far, so good. I may be drinking more water, but that's my go to drink anyway, for the most part. Fat was already a part of breakfast, so that was no no big deal. We'll see how week two goes...

Jeff Serven
Colm O said:

I assumed I could have cooked carbs (potato/rice) with my evening veg--my question is about lunch. Is lunch meant to be all raw, or can you mix in cooked carbs so long as you have your full raw salad also? 

What step are you on? No need to assume, just do exactly what it says. 

Jeff Serven

Colm, Sorry I misread your question. You are having technical issues with todays task showing up as it should? I will look into it. Sorry. 

Cory Fair

Guys, posting in a random thread about a potential technical issue is the fastest way to not get help. Use the help button and submit a ticket.

Colm O'Shea

Cory,

 

I thought the fastest way to address the technical problem was to email you first, which I did upon waking and finding the lesson missing. Two hours later or so I posted to the forum. I'll use the help button instead if it happens again. 

Jeff Serven

Just bought yourself a ticket on the Watchlist

Colm O'Shea

Yes, I had a feeling that was coming. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Dovile Jakniunaite

Joining later in the empty room, but still wanting to participate: the first two steps are not difficult of course, and easy to comply. What I like most: that I started to think more consistently on how I eat. From time to time in my life I did that, but did not think that simple rules can be so helpful. 

On the other note and risking to become part of the watchlist I would like to find out how to get the next steps seen on my dashbоard (step 4 in this case) when writing two inquiries through the help function did not help (I checked all the necessary days!). I am not sure 100% that I am right, but I would like to know (if I am wrong) what I am doing wrong. Thanks!

Julia Quigley

Welcome! It's definitely not an empty room and we're glad to have your participation. 

Not sure why you haven't heard back from the help desk tickets you submitted--I've always gotten a prompt response! When did you submit them? You'll get a response via email, so have you checked your spam folders?

You did the right thing to use the help desk function! Maybe @Cory Fair can help you figure out why you're having trouble. 

 

Jeff Serven

Glad to have ya' Dovile!

I will ask Cory to look into it. 

P.S. Yes, lurkers get watch listed. 

Cory Fair
8 hours ago, Dovile Jakniunaite said:

Joining later in the empty room, but still wanting to participate: the first two steps are not difficult of course, and easy to comply. What I like most: that I started to think more consistently on how I eat. From time to time in my life I did that, but did not think that simple rules can be so helpful. 

On the other note and risking to become part of the watchlist I would like to find out how to get the next steps seen on my dashbоard (step 4 in this case) when writing two inquiries through the help function did not help (I checked all the necessary days!). I am not sure 100% that I am right, but I would like to know (if I am wrong) what I am doing wrong. Thanks!

The developer took some time to look into this today. You didn't upload a before photo. I've re-added the task to do so as a reminder.

Dovile Jakniunaite

Thanks!! Аnd sorry for this - I took the picture for myself, but did not upload.

Jeff Serven

Strike 1

Patricia Albidrez

Hi Everyone,

You guys are great so I thought I'd get over myself and stop lurking and check in.  I just completed my first week and started my breakfast fat yesterday.  I work in the oilfield and food options/storage are limited.  I can get eggs and cottage cheese at the dining hall but I don't know what the eggs are cooked in or their omega 3 content or the fat content of the cheese.  Went to grocery store and grabbed some mixed nuts for extra insurance.  I just realized I could try avocado since I don't need a fridge for that.  Denver, CO is home for me when I'm on my week off.  Can't wait to try Julia's recipes! Thanks guys.

Patricia

Jeff Serven

Patricia,

Good to have ya' and good choice on not being a weirdo. 

Don't worry about what they cook the eggs in for now. Do the best with what ya' got. Sounds like a good idea with the avocado and the nuts. Keep up the god work!

 

Dovile, Hows it going?