How can you get strong resting only 60-90s between sets or super setting?

[Dies Irae]

The BtGB book says to pair push-pull, core-legs and alternating without any rest for basic strength, and I hear that Foundation uses the same modality and is even harder. I have also been told here that for basic strength you should only rest 60-90s between sets, and I suppose this is if you do straight sets and not super sets.

But it has also been said here a lot (I have read a lot of old threads) that when you're doing 3-5 reps or "strength work", you should rest 3-5 min or even more, so these two things are contradictory and conflict with each other.

I just want to understand how can these two mutually exclusive things have been said here about the same exercises.

[Andrew Long]

the 3 minute rest thing is more for maximal strength or maximal power.  think more along the lines of 10+ reps of push ups as basic strength needing 60secs rest vs maximal strength stuff like 1-5 rep iron cross pulls probably needing a bit more rest. in saying that if all you can do is 4 push ups then that is really maximal strength training for you but i think the idea with the foundation series is more aboutconditioning the body to have a greater work capacity/endurance and building stronger connective tissue with training.   hence the higher rep stuff at the start with shorter rest.  

so someone who can do 4 push ups max if they really wanted to get stronger they would have to have  larger rest generally so instead they do incline push ups and build basic strength getting lower and lower to the ground so when they hit push ups all of a sudden 4 reps isnt so hard and they have stronger connective tissue and a greater work capacity.

basically using slightly different energy systems.... push ups should not be a maximal strength workout out for anyone imo and should not be trained as such.

[Dies Irae]

the 3 minute rest thing is more for maximal strength or maximal power.  think more along the lines of 10+ reps of push ups as basic strength needing 60secs rest vs maximal strength stuff like 1-5 rep iron cross pulls probably needing a bit more rest. in saying that if all you can do is 4 push ups then that is really maximal strength training for you but i think the idea with the foundation series is more aboutconditioning the body to have a greater work capacity/endurance and building stronger connective tissue with training.   hence the higher rep stuff at the start with shorter rest.  

so someone who can do 4 push ups max if they really wanted to get stronger they would have to have  larger rest generally so instead they do incline push ups and build basic strength getting lower and lower to the ground so when they hit push ups all of a sudden 4 reps isnt so hard and they have stronger connective tissue and a greater work capacity.

basically using slightly different energy systems.... push ups should not be a maximal strength workout out for anyone imo and should not be trained as such.

You mention 10 reps, but before Foundation this used to be done with 3-5 reps for years, that is, doing 2 exercises in the 3-5 rep range back to back without any rest.

[Romulo Malta]

You are not going to get any concrete answer trying to compare info that is now a bit " Jurassic".

You'd probably get even more surprised to see Foundation has no actual static rest but active mobility work in between sets. I reckon any reps or sets details are no longer allowed to be commented unless you own the courses. And yes, you can get damn strong with the protocol. I don't even care to understand or rationalize why it works if I'm seeing the results so blatantly obvious.

[Blairbob]

 This has been rehashed in old forum threads. Search for them.

If say you're doing SSC so you're only training at 50-60%, you don't need as long of rests.

Personally, I find more reps means I prefer more rest time but it somewhat depends on the intensity.

3 reps squatting never seems to need as much rest as 4reps+ like 4-6. Completely different. I can bang out doubles or triples without too that much rest and sometimes have to when I'm short on time. Let's not even talk about something silly like 10-15 reps if the intensity is fairly high (let's say 10reps for 80%, 15 for 70%). 

Then again, I'm pretty specialized towards low reps these days hahah which is part of that.

[Doug Grainger]

It takes 3-5 minutes for your body to regenerate the ATP that you expended performing a heavy work set. That is where those numbers come from.

[Dies Irae]

It takes 3-5 minutes for your body to regenerate the ATP that you expended performing a heavy work set. That is where those numbers come from.

That's my whole point, and yet they never rest that long when doing low reps.

Get it?

Edited December 16, 2015 by Dies Irae

[Doug Grainger]

Most of the F/H work I have done so far has not been "heavy". The strain has been either neurological (keeping form) or more like endurance.

I think the progressions are staged such that we rarely or never hit that constraint. Are you getting complete muscle failure after 1-3 reps of F work?

[Coach Sommer]

You guys worry too much.  Your time would be better spent sweating then theorizing.

 

Besides if you are still struggling with the early Foundation elements for mastery, you do not yet have enough strength to worry about maximizing it anyway.  For the time being you need to concern yourself with increasing work capacity and connective tissue health.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Andrew Long]

also with atp recovery there is diminishing returns with rest so in most cases you are probably around 90% recovered after 2 mins its not like atp just magically gets completely restored at 3 minutes.  as for foundation work.... this is basic strength not MAX strength. 

[Dies Irae]

You guys worry too much.  Your time would be better spent sweating then theorizing.

I just wanted to understand how it was, because I see it as a contradiction, that's all.

 

Besides if you are still struggling with the early Foundation elements for mastery, you do not yet have enough strength to worry about maximizing it anyway.  For the time being you need to concern yourself with increasing work capacity and connective tissue health.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I don't have Foundation.

[Dies Irae]

This has been rehashed in old forum threads. Search for them.

I have and I have found only what I said in the OP.

If say you're doing SSC so you're only training at 50-60%, you don't need as long of rests.

But I didn't say SSC, but basic strength, or FBE's.

[Dies Irae]

Most of the F/H work I have done so far has not been "heavy". The strain has been either neurological (keeping form) or more like endurance.

I think the progressions are staged such that we rarely or never hit that constraint. Are you getting complete muscle failure after 1-3 reps of F work?

As I said, I don't have Foundation. HeSPU's are still part of "basic strength", as well as ring HSPU's and wall planches etc. I am sure you will not agree that any of these exercises aren't "heavy".

Edited December 17, 2015 by Dies Irae

[Andrew Long]

basic strength is not really about the type of exercise it is more about the load and what your are prepared for.  hespu may be max strength for someone who can only muster a few reps with poor form but then if you have someone strong enough to do a few reps of hollow body press then a hepu most definitly is a basic strength...   in saying that you need to move away from that style of thinking anyway, it is more about what is your body capable of doing PROPERLY  working it until you have  a strong base in that movement  and then progressing to something a little tougher.  

 

max strength, base strength, reps, rest, etc can vary hugely depending on what your goals are  and just because people say 5 reps with 3 mins rest is how to build max strength that doesnt mean me doing 5 push ups and taking a 3 minute rest will do anything i can already do 10 push ups....  so many factors need to be included.

 

what coach is trying to do right now is move everyone safely and efficiently towards higher end GYMNASTIC movement practice making sure you  are well prepared for it and of course there will be some contradictions fromwork published 7 years ago.  Id almost hope there are because that means he has learnt more about the clientele he is now focused on, which helps improve his training for us.

im assuming coach realised that adults arent quite the same as kids when training along with the fact that we are generally de-conditioned and have poor work capacity and mobility.  btgb is very old work now and coach has revised his advice more based on his experience with the average adult trainee. 

 

 

 

my impression is coach is making our muscles stronger, our joints stronger, our work capacity higher, our bodies more flexible and as the main focus conditioning our bodies  and cns to be able to achieve a high level in gymnastic skills.

[Douglas Wadle]

We have to compare to foundations, because that's what you asked about.  Foundations is basic strength, i.e. not max strength. it's about building the "foundation", that is, your connective tissue and base strength.  Therefore, short rest periods.  Once you have earned the right, and the body to tolerate max strength, then you may do so in the more advanced elements, like rings strength and one armed handstand, where the rest periods can be much longer.  But remember, this is building usable strength, power, and muscular endurance, so the concepts applied to barbell training do not completely overlap.  If you work max strength when you haven't built base strength and muscular endurance, you will be asking for overtraining injuries.  If you are beyond foundations (which I doubt) then you probably wouldn't be asking this question.  BTGB is really more advanced training, and as has been stated here many times, was upgraded to this program because it was too advanced for most students.  Good luck with your training.

[Sonya McNeely]

I understand your question and your confusion, but many of the answers have touched mentioned the additional factors involved in deciding rest times from number of reps. 

The answer is more complex than just saying 3-5 reps equals longer rest time required. It is not merely the number of reps performed which equate to the amount of rest. 

That thinking came about from:

1. Often low reps (3-5) are performed with loads which are maximal or near maximal

2. There is evidence that after maximal or near maximal work a longer rest is good for replenishing ATP. 

3. Deduction: 1 and 2 mean that the 3-5 rep scheme requires longer rest time. 

 

The deduction seems to make sense, but it is not accurate in many situations because of other factors. 

 

There are other situations/reasons why low reps (3-5) are performed which aren't solely related to maximal load. A few other factors that influence rep numbers are the neurological difficulty and the strength/conditioning of the connective tissue. 

So, if I were programming for myself and I had 3-5 reps of something which is neurologically easy and which my connective tissue is conditioned for and which my actual strength is being challenged I would rest longer in between the sets. (When I started, this was pushups. Neuro was good, elbows and shoulders were good, the actual pressing was difficult. = rest longer) 

If the strength isn't the limiting factor I can rest a shorter amount of time. For me this is pistols; the strength is okay but the balance, the holding up of the other leg (hip compression), and the ankle flexibility (poor) are all limiting factors on that movement which make the movement difficult. But it isn't difficult because of the strength element. This means that I don't deplete my ATP because it isn't terribly "difficult" but I am neurologically trying to balance and keep my leg up and relax my bottom ankle, etc. This means neuro is working high, tissue conditioning is high, and strength is medium(being used but NOT being maxed out). So, I don't need to rest long between sets. My muscles are fine. My brain is a little fried and my ankle is cranky, but the muscles aren't tired. =Less rest 

 

So, the deduction made above is mostly valid when the 3-5 reps uses up ATP or is at the edge of your strength ability. Many bodyweight movements for certain people aren't only limited by strength. 

I honestly don't strictly count the rest when doing bodyweight exercises because my connective tissue and my neurological execution of the movements is far behind my strength, so I just start when I'm ready to start the next set and this is usually pretty soon (rather quickly). Because of this I found the layout of Foundation One, with the alternating work and then  

 

Further, this is even easier to explain in terms of Back Squats. I also do Starting Strength, where I have to actually consider my rest times.  

Where I do worry about rest time is in my Starting Strength weightlifting. During warmup sets I can rest a short amount of time (30s-45s) but at my working weights I rest longer in between (60s-90s). Once I'm working on a one rep max or working closer to my one rep max (like doing 845%, 90% load of my 1RM) I will rest even longer (2-3m). 

 

[Jon Douglas]

what coach is trying to do right now is move everyone safely and efficiently towards higher end GYMNASTIC movement practice making sure you  are well prepared for it and of course there will be some contradictions fromwork published 7 years ago.  Id almost hope there are because that means he has learnt more about the clientele he is now focused on, which helps improve his training for us.

im assuming coach realised that adults arent quite the same as kids when training along with the fact that we are generally de-conditioned and have poor work capacity and mobility.  btgb is very old work now and coach has revised his advice more based on his experience with the average adult trainee. 

 

 

 

 

Haha, you should see the difference in seminar content between 2012 and 2015 it illustrates this so well. 2012; "Follow Jeff and Heath through the first part of Hungarian." 2015; "You're doing level 1. EVERYONE is doing Level One until you do it RIGHT. Now here is in-depth guidance on drills that you can actually use"

[Dies Irae]

Alright, thanks for all the answers.

[GoldenEagle]

The short rest period between sets is there to develop your cardiovascular system. Your physical strength develops as you sleep while your body is focusing on repairing itself.