Front lever: Will it ever be possible?

Slizzard. Your uncle's kids may not have been pleased if you cracked their playground. :roll: :wink:

Interesting point of reppage. While with my boys, we have been working a lot of that 3-5 rep range ( which works really with Erik because he tends to progressions that are nearly as hard as the ones I do or are more difficult ), I've found I like having some of my weaker, beginner kids to work them in sets of 10 instead of 5.

My boys do a lot of good work, paying attention to form when I stay in that 3-5 rep phase. However, depending on the movement, I prefer to have them use an easier progression than they would use for 10. Depending, they are pretty good about this.

This of course is not the women's team which I have no part in. 10 reps become broken up into a few sets that start to look really horrid after the first set.

Weighted exercise, in general, should be a supplement to the bodyweight work (especially rings.. since nothing can replicate rings). Or as a test of where your progress is.

That's my take at least...

Blair: LOL! That... would have been ugly higher reps like 10-15 is great once someone's developed the ability to do multiple sets of 5 with minimal rest. Plus, with the young kids their proportions are different than adults and with the lighter bodyweight it seems reasonable that they would build up to be able to do higher reps with good form more quickly than an adult. It's good to experiment, it'll be interesting to see how the sets of 10 effect performance. I can only imagine they'll benefit from it

Brain: I agree, with the goal of achieving gymnastic ability I think that the weighted stuff should never exceed 35-40% of training at the MOST, and even that would be more near the beginning. As we get into the more advanced progressions I'd imagine more than 30% of the work being with weighted exercises would have severely diminishing returns. I think it's got much more of a place than just determining progress, but weighted stuff shouldn't dominate the training ever, unless there's an injury that permits weight training but not gymnastic training. Like my tendonosis/itis! I'm starting to do some planching again, nice and slow. I'm so excited!!! I've missed it. I'm afraid to push it, but I think my advanced tuck's going to be way stronger than it was. I did pretty well last night, 2 sets of 6 seconds with 30s rest in between, and that was just because I was afraid to do longer sets or more volume. Figure I'll work back into it slowly. I'm just glad I can do more again than just being a meathead lol!!!

My boys seem to love and understand that I would rather see 3-5 reps of full ROM rather than 10-15 and me yelling at them for poor form or ROM. Derr. As well, they focus better on these rep schemes.

I was thinking about it last night, the load under full ROM, especially past the 50% mark of a ROM ( say pushups ) becomes greater towards the full ROM rather than doing a lot more reps of not even half ROM.

I should buy some little backpacks so they can do weighted pullups better. They really enjoyed them the other day.

I like your take on it, Steve-O.

One of the things I've noticed with youths, is they have not developed the where-with-all to push towards intensity as those older or far more experienced. Erik can because he has been training a long time and he is strong. It shows up in his adaptation to pain (PNF stretching). Stronger people deal with pain better. I joked with him, " What, no more tears during PNF? " last night.

In fact I'm probably putting more work on it than him I joked ( no crying at all last night nor was he fighting me or resisting the urge to claw my eyes out, grab my hair or ape-smash my face ).

Well, when someone stops wanting to try to physically destroy you, it's definitely a good step.

This is probably a question that could be answered by clicking around on the forum, but what exactly is PNF stretching? The way that Blairbob described it, I imagine it as something that could be used to push through the pain barrier in training. Problem is, and I know this from experience, once you start ignoring pain, it becomes easier to hurt yourself. They say they're mistakes you only make once, but I just keep coming back.

Actually it has told me that Erik adapts to pain extremely well. Him and I are pretty good about watching for pain, especially forearm splints from excessive circle work or his hamstrings the next workout after having PNF'd them. He has learned to tell me about anything causing discomfort because I can figure out quickly if he's babying a limb or doesn't feel well ( and I can get very angry and upset if he doesn't tell me about such things from the getgo ).

With both of the levers, I try to keep a close watch and have my guys tell me if their elbows hurt too much (more so to do with back levers). Now that some of my boy's are getting better at circles, their wrists are taking more of a pounding (also because of "slapping" on circles) because they are able to support themselves through more hand shifts during circles than they were before.

Until my boys can do some of the most advanced pullups and dips in GB, we won't be incorporating weighted pullups and this will be my same stance as for most weighted movements. We may test them but never toward true max efforts.

I guess in terms of gymnastics it won't matter in the end, but once the boys can do good regular dips/pullups they should do them with added weight. Keep working on the progressions, of course, but one set of weighted dips/pullups isn't going to fry them. Just do it after the harder variations. They're harder because of balance and joint flexibility, not much else. Or maybe I'm just strong enough to where I can't tell the difference, I actually don't know. The only thing that makes Korean dips and wide grip L pullups hard for me is my right shoulder. But the weighted exercises will develop strength that will help the kids develop harder variations. I can guarantee that they have done so for me. But, in the end, they're so young that they have all the time in the world, so i guess it's not that important. Glad to hear Erik's not hurting anymore! When I was fighting I did the same thing to get my almost-splits, and the first week was awful! After that I got used to it and it still hurt, but it just wasn't the same. Totally bearable.

but once the boys can do good regular dips/pullups they should do them with added weight.

This is certainly a workable approach, but one that will have limited long term applications gymnastically speaking. It is not enough to master the basic variations. Can they perform all of the various MPPu and MPPr exercises? For example can they perform swinging dips to HS? Have they mastered rope climbing without legs?

Remember also that once these fundamental basic strength movements have been mastered, maximal strength will then continue to be developed by progressing onward to more advanced ring strength elements. And it is important to understand that no amount of additional focus on bent-arm strength will build the ability to perform these advanced ring strength elements. This can only be achieved through a meticulous, progressive correctly designed training program.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I totally agree, coach. The weighted stuff, in my opinion and in my current training, is just a convenient tool to build the strength and necessary muscle mass for that advanced stuff as fast as possible. It doesn't take anything excessive to be strong, as you know from your own experience. Getting into the mppu and mppr stuff absolutely has to be the priority. The weighted stuff is really just there to make sure that there are no issues with muscular strength to get in the way of training progress. I can only imagine that as one gets more into the advanced variations and advanced ring work, one set of heavy weighted pullups/dips once or twice a week would be all an athlete would need, and really all the extra work he/she could spare.

serotonin said:

where you can see some front lever pullups variations at the end, and the negative of the front lever (at the end of the basic ring strengh serie) i couldnt hold the front lever, as i never can hold it in a serie as i am tired. That's way i recomend you to do it at first. I found that those negatives kills my strengths in just on or two reps, so you have to put all your effort at first series, and of course after some warm up (i usually do some pullups and band streching at first)

Ah! and take your shoes off!!! At that leverage distance the shoes are just for advanced gymnasts

Well thats my opinion founded at my experience (i don't have anyway big legs)

I've just started trying negative levers as supposed to statics as I couldn't get my volume up to a minute on statics and they are definitely helping, though you are right, just a few realy do leave you shattered.

Indeed, they do.

That's why TOPS pulls are so fantastic. If you're doing them right you're hitting a negative front lever each rep, especially if you concentrate on keeping a slower eccentric tempo.

I have also found that working on a static that I can do working sets of 20-30s in is really working well. I built up to 8 sets of this and this volume has really helped me in the static strength department as well as elbow rehab.

What are TOPS pulls?

Quick question, what are some good ways to blur the line between advanced tuck and straddle on the front lever? Since my straddle flexibility is pretty bad (on back lever it's fine though), I've been trying to think of ways I can work up to the straddle. Front lever negatives and advanced tucks with weights on my ankles are the only ones I can do or think of so far.

Would using some elastic tubing around my waist (like slizzardman pointed out in the tour of the Slizzard Lounge) be an effective way to build up to the straddle.

... what are some good ways to blur the line between advanced tuck and straddle on the front lever? ...

FL with one leg extended and one leg tucked is a nice intermediary step. Just be conscientious in keeping your hips open and the back flat.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I tried straddle front lever to day, i guess i managed to hold it for a total of 4 sec. Not sure about my body position but tried to keep it as straight as possible. I think its hard to figure out all the muscles to use during a straddle. Is another good approach to progress to half front layer with a flex band under my knees when holding the lever?

Is another good approach to progress to half front layer with a flex band under my knees when holding the lever?

The problem with this arrangement is that removes too much stress from the lower back/core. A better arrangement would be to place the band under the glutes. This would still provide some assistance in lessening the intensity of the element without removing the lower back from the equation.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

... what are some good ways to blur the line between advanced tuck and straddle on the front lever? ...

FL with one leg extended and one leg tucked is a nice intermediary step. Just be conscientious in keeping your hips open and the back flat.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

This position definitely helped me learn how I should feel in the full lay.

Junior: I would lose the mindset of "How do I work more advanced variations?" and just work on your advanced tuck until you've got a rock solid 45+ seconds there. A 4 second straddle means you are a long way from being able to work it directly. Your best bet is to master the advanced tuck to the point where your back is flat and parallel with the ground, your shins are parallel with the ground, and your thighs are perpendicular. From there, slowly start extending your knees past your hips and keep working a certain distance until you can hold it for 40+ seconds. Then move out another inch or two. In the meantime, static body lever holds just above the floor will help you develop the core strength and stability you will need to open your hips while maintaining a flat back.

Trying to train or simulate more advanced positions is the fast track to getting hurt.

Quick question, what are some good ways to blur the line between advanced tuck and straddle on the front lever?

I have tinkered around with simply extending the advanced tuck further out till the angle in the hips and knees becomes greater. I can focus then on a flat back whereas with a straddle, sometimes the hips will pike too much as they will with the single leg extended/tucked lever.

I've played around with a bent leg straddle, but it's weird. As well, the hips generally pike and it can feel quite weird on the hips during a lever.

The best thing I have found, quite honestly, is to extend in small increments from advanced tuck to straddle. You won't notice much of an increase in difficulty until you get past 90/90. After that every few inches becomes much more difficult. Each inch will take longer to gain than the last, but keep in mind that you are building the ability to work volume with a straddle. I can hold a perfectly good straddle for about 10 seconds right now, but being 4 inches or so past 90/90 makes for very difficult sets of 20-30s. You are building strength, I promise you. You can and probably SHOULD prove it to yourself once a month. More than that is unnecessary. Stick to your plan, build more strength into the proper training volume, and you will be a beast.

Thanks, my 90/90 static advance tuck is about 45 sec now, and i did sets of 15x5 in 90/90. I´ll try to move my knees above 90/90 and see how that feels. A little off topic, but is it a good idea to use flex bands when training Iron Cross, or is this the a shortcut to getting hurt as well?

If your elbow conditioning is up to par, it's probably a good idea. According to Coach you really shouldn't be worrying about cross until you have a solid floor planche.The forces in cross training are far beyond those in planche training at the inner elbow so you really have to be well conditioned to even start that sort of thing!

Edit: might be rings planche, actually, but floor planche is something of a pre-requisite for that in terms of elbow conditioning.

wut :shock: No way I have time to wait for a full floor or rings planche for that sake

might be rings planche, actually, but floor planche is something of a pre-requisite for that in terms of elbow conditioning.

My preferred progression is XR Support, XR L-sit, XR HS, XR Lock Arm Press HS, XR PL and then finally you may train Iron Cross (IC).

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

No cross training for the next 3 years i guess