Going dairy free

[Ronnicky Roy]

Probably somewhere between .5 and 1.5 fat loss if he's get regular exercise in.

[James Rohal]

I want to jump in and point out that the traditional Okinawa diet was mostly sweet potato, vegetables, and legumes. Meat was eaten maybe once a year, or at most once a month, and eggs and dairy were also very uncommon. In modern times, meat, dairy, and fast food has taken hold and the life expectancy has plummeted. I recommend the book The Blue Zones if you want to learn about the habits of extraordinarily long-lived populations (it's not just about nutrition).

 

Another point that I learned from that book is that there actually are scientific studies showing the benefits of vegetarian (and often more so, vegan) diets on life expectancy and such. For example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24898223

A summary of all their findings is here: http://www.llu.edu/assets/publichealth/adventist-health-studies/documents/ahs-overview.pdf

[Ronnicky Roy]

I want to jump in and point out that the traditional Okinawa diet was mostly sweet potato, vegetables, and legumes. Meat was eaten maybe once a year, or at most once a month, and eggs and dairy were also very uncommon. In modern times, meat, dairy, and fast food has taken hold and the life expectancy has plummeted. I recommend the book The Blue Zones if you want to learn about the habits of extraordinarily long-lived populations (it's not just about nutrition).

 

Another point that I learned from that book is that there actually are scientific studies showing the benefits of vegetarian (and often more so, vegan) diets on life expectancy and such. For example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24898223

A summary of all their findings is here: http://www.llu.edu/assets/publichealth/adventist-health-studies/documents/ahs-overview.pdf

Why would I bother with the book, when I lived there for 3 years and watched them eat meat on a regular basis? Like I said, they did in fact have a balanced diet. It includes meat. There may be "some" that eat it once a year or seldomly. But damn near every one that I met ate it weekly.

[Ronnicky Roy]

I actually have a friend (Japanese) who still lives over there who is constantly posting pictures of his meals on Facebook. Almost all of them are dishes that have meat of some kind.

[Ronnicky Roy]

Okinawa and the rest of Japan are different by the way. Very different

[James Rohal]

Nick, I think you didn't read what I wrote so let me try again:

 

[..] the traditional Okinawa diet was mostly sweet potato, vegetables, and legumes. [..] In modern times, meat, dairy, and fast food has taken hold and the life expectancy has plummeted.

 

The additional piece of information you need (from the book) is the fact that the centenarians are not eating the modern diet (and if they did, they likely died already). It doesn't matter what your friend posts on facebook unless he/she is representative of Okinawan centenarians. It's rather sad that their incredibly healthy lifestyle has almost disappeared due to western influence.

[Ronnicky Roy]

Nick, I think you didn't read what I wrote so let me try again:

The additional piece of information you need (from the book) is the fact that the centenarians are not eating the modern diet (and if they did, they likely died already). It doesn't matter what your friend posts on facebook unless he/she is representative of Okinawan centenarians. It's rather sad that their incredibly healthy lifestyle has almost disappeared due to western influence.

I read the post. I just don't see how comparing a organic diet to a processed diet, then pointing to animal products as the cause of the drop is a reasonable assumption. It's like someone adding more chicken into their diet as well as a drop of ammonia in everything that they eat and drink. "Well you know! Before you started eating all that chicken you were alot healthier. Maybe you should stop eating meat". The argument, to me, is just silly.

But you are right that my friend isnt 100, He's only in his 60's, but I did meet a handful of centenarians that ate meat on a fairly frequent basis. I only had a few encounters with them while food was around and they always partook in meat eating. Sashimi is a very common dish there.

[Colin Macdonald]

Nick, I think you didn't read what I wrote so let me try again:

 

The additional piece of information you need (from the book) is the fact that the centenarians are not eating the modern diet (and if they did, they likely died already). It doesn't matter what your friend posts on facebook unless he/she is representative of Okinawan centenarians. It's rather sad that their incredibly healthy lifestyle has almost disappeared due to western influence.

 

I think you are incorrect.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1407826

 

 

 

The present paper examines the relationship of nutritional status to further life expectancy and health status in the Japanese elderly based on 3 epidemiological studies. 1. Nutrient intakes in 94 Japanese centenarians investigated between 1972 and 1973 showed a higher proportion of animal protein to total proteins than in contemporary average Japanese. 2. High intakes of milk and fats and oils had favorable effects on 10-year (1976-1986) survivorship in 422 urban residents aged 69-71. The survivors revealed a longitudinal increase in intakes of animal foods such as eggs, milk, fish and meat over the 10 years. 3. Nutrient intakes were compared, based on 24-hour dietary records, between a sample from Okinawa Prefecture where life expectancies at birth and 65 were the longest in Japan, and a sample from Akita Prefecture where the life expectancies were much shorter. Intakes of Ca, Fe, vitamins A, B1, B2, C, and the proportion of energy from proteins and fats were significantly higher in the former than in the latter. Intakes of carbohydrates and NaCl were lower.

 

 

 

The food intake pattern in Okinawa has been different from that in other regions  of  Japan.  The people  there  have  never  been  influenced  by Buddhism. Hence, there has been no taboo regarding eating habits. Eating meat was not  stygmatised, and consumption of pork and goat was historically high.  It was exceptional among Japanese food consumption.

The intake of meat was higher in  Okinawa... On the other hand, the intake of fish was lower... Intake of NaCl was lower... Deep colored vegetables were taken more in Okinawa... These characteristics of dietary status are thought to be among the crucial factors  which convey longevity and good health to the elderly in Okinawa Prefecture. ....

 

My Emphasis.

 

[Parkerson Seward]

Nick, I think you didn't read what I wrote so let me try again:

 

The additional piece of information you need (from the book) is the fact that the centenarians are not eating the modern diet (and if they did, they likely died already). It doesn't matter what your friend posts on facebook unless he/she is representative of Okinawan centenarians. It's rather sad that their incredibly healthy lifestyle has almost disappeared due to western influence.

Well, I wouldn't go that far. Sure there is a Western influence, but I'd say for the most part the average Okinawan is healthier than the average American. While there I would do my calisthenics workouts at the parks and they were constantly full of people walking or running. Back home I'm lucky just to find a park that still has pullup bars.

 

As for the original topic, I cut out dairy and switched to paleo a while back saw my body fat go down without losing mass.

[Sean Murphey]

When looking at cultures that live the longest, we always like to focus on diet. I think this is futile. IMO,  the lifestyle (besides diet) of these cultures is much much more important to understanding health and longer living. 

 

I'm also more interested in HOW these people eat (variety, frequency, etc.) rather than WHAT they eat. 

 

That being said, I agree with Bipconi, the general population eats too much meat. 

[Ronnicky Roy]

Agreed to an extent. The longest living cultures have minimal stress, active lifestyle and a sense of community with their neighbors. Science shows more friends=longer life. But that goes up there that exercise is king, diet is queen.

[GoldenEagle]

I don't agree, but I'm not going to berate you on the point. I'd recommend a bit of supplementation if I were you though.

 

Farmed shellfish is generally quite sustainable and would be an excellent source of some essential micro nutrients that will probably be missing from a vegan diet such as long chain omega-3s and bio-available minerals. Even just once a month would be better than nothing. http://www.treehugger.com/green-food/8-sustainable-sources-of-farmed-fish-seafood.htmlAnd if you have ethical concerns about eating animals, oysters and mussels are about as intelligent as carrots. 

 

Since most animal bones go to waste, buying them to make bone broth will have zero enviromental impact. In addition to essential minerals, it will also provide you with some gelatin to support healthy joints.

 

Some sort of fermented food for vitamin K2 will also probably be a good idea. I've never seen any hard numbers on the K2 content in fermented foods aside from natto (fermented soy beans, which is freaking nasty from what I understand). The best sources of K2 are from animal organs and aged cheeses, getting some in your diet is very important for preventing arteriosclerosis. Plants only contain K1 which is not the same thing.

 

And you'll have to find some B12, it's essential and only found in animals.

A) Chia seed and ground flaxseed are sources of Omega three(O3) fatty acid. Chia seed is slightly higher in Omega six(O6) than flaxseed. However flaxseed is higher in O3. Assuming one is in optimal health the body will create any additional O6 or Omega nine(O9) from the O3 we consume. For optimal heart health the body needs more O3than O6 or O9.

 

B) Eat a large avocado once a week for soft tissue and joint support in addition to better skin, hair, and nails. Plus a lot of the mobility exercises Coach Sommer has us doing reconditions our joints.

 

C) The structure of K1 and K2 are essentially the same the technical differences lay in the length. The body can produce k2 with the k1 it has stored up.

D) B12... I get my b12 from a chewable tablet that have at least once a week.

E) Just in case anyone wants to bring the subject of our teeth

[GoldenEagle]

Regarding the original topic...going dairy free. Go for it.

 

There will be a whole bunch of common health issues you won't deal with any more.

 

Besides there are "Milks" made from coconut and common nuts like: cashews, or almonds. Nut milks are easy to make and there are a non-dairy yogart and coffee creamer options in some grocery stores.

[Colin Macdonald]

A) Chia seed and ground flaxseed are sources of Omega three(O3) fatty acid. Chia seed is slightly higher in Omega six(O6) than flaxseed. However flaxseed is higher in O3. Assuming one is in optimal health the body will create any additional O6 or Omega nine(O9) from the O3 we consume. For optimal heart health the body needs more O3than O6 or O9.

 

B) Eat a large avocado once a week for soft tissue and joint support in addition to better skin, hair, and nails. Plus a lot of the mobility exercises Coach Sommer has us doing reconditions our joints.

 

C) The structure of K1 and K2 are essentially the same the technical differences lay in the length. The body can produce k2 with the k1 it has stored up.

D) B12... I get my b12 from a chewable tablet that have at least once a week.

E) Just in case anyone wants to bring the subject of our teeth

 

 

A) Similar but different. The good stuff are long chain fatty acids found in seafood. The body only has a very limited capacity to convert short chain fatty acids. If don't eat seafood, then yes flax will be the best substitute for vegetarians.

 

B) Maybe useful for something, but not the same as gelatin.

 

C) The body can produce MK-4

 

Vitamin K2 (menaquinone) includes several subtypes. The two subtypes most studied are menaquinone-4 (menatetrenone, MK-4) and menaquinone-7 (MK-7).

Menaquinone-7 is different from MK-4 in that it is not produced by human tissue. MK-7 consumption has been shown to reduce the risk of bone fractures and cardiovascular disorders that are crucial health issues worldwide. 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_K#Conversion_of_vitamin_K1_to_vitamin_K2_in_animals

 

D) Great, and what did your ancestors do for the past thousands of years to get B-12?

 

E) This is confusing diet with taxonomy and has no relevance. Though the chimpanzees on that chart that we are so similar to are omnivores, including insects and animal meat.

[GoldenEagle]

A) Where did claim they were the same?

 

B) The human body doesn't need gelatin from the carcass of a non-human animal's body. The best collagen for the human animal is the type it can create for itself.

 

D) Fruits, Nuts, Vegetables, that might have some dirt on it.  Non-human animals get b12 from dirt.

 

E) Did you notice the biological differences stated in the chart between a true carnivore, an omnivore,  a herbivore, a frugivore, and the human animal?

[Colin Macdonald]

E) Did you notice the biological differences stated in the chart between a true carnivore, an omnivore,  a herbivore, a frugivore, and the human animal?

 

I noticed what it claims. The divisions in nature are not nearly as clear cut. Look at my references above if you care to. And frugivorous is just an animal that eats fruit, but it doesn't exclude the consumption of meat.

 

To be clear, what's your ethical stance on animal consumption?

[Connor Davies]

To be clear, what's your ethical stance on animal consumption?

This is always a good question to ask someone when talking about nutrition. Far to many people try to justify a diet one way or the other based on this, rather than objectively looking at the facts.

I don't eat meat, but I don't think that not eating meat is healthier in any way. We clearly evolved to suck the marrow from scavenged bones if we had to. However, there is some call for a distinction to be made between what our ancestors needed to do to survive, compared to what we need to do to survive.

[GoldenEagle]

 

To be clear, what's your ethical stance on animal consumption?

Have you not read my profile on this site? If not, Vegan / Strict Vegetarian. I don't remember when exactly I went Vegan / Strict Vegetarian.

 

I would hope some who is spouting off common statements against veganism has been vegan for a few years and has had the opportunity to realize the benefits of the eating lifestyle which the American Heart Association recommends for heart health. 

 

One of the primary reasons I went vegan to stave off, heart attack, stroke, diabetes, obesity, hormonal issues, and other common ailments that surface as a result of a sedentary lifestyle, and the "Standard American Diet."

[Sean Murphey]

Im pretty sure thecolin isn't in favor of the standard american diet (gross amount of processed 'food') either...and the American Heart Association is bullshit, you lost me when you brought them up.

[Mikkel Ravn]

I love my dairy. Nothing like chugging a big glass of cold milk.

 

Also quite convenient meso and post workout - Just bring a liter of milk and, voila, 45 grams of carbs and 35 grams of protein. Yes, casein doesn't absorb as fast as whey, but whatever. Still works well.

[Colin Macdonald]

Have you not read my profile on this site? If not, Vegan / Strict Vegetarian. I don't remember when exactly I went Vegan / Strict Vegetarian.

 

I would hope some who is spouting off common statements against veganism has been vegan

 

I hadn't realized your profile is required reading on this site.  ​ Your profile just says 'vegan' and that doesn't really answer my question. Though reading "I don't talk much because I don't want to dumb myself down so that you may understand my intention" gives me a pretty clear idea of your general attitude...

 

The claim that we can get B-12 from dirty vegetables (or the alternative, that B-12 is some sort of hoax) or that we can determine diet through taxonomy are pretty standard vegan claims that don't get much notice out of those circles. I may be mistaken in your case, but I've found that they are generally statements from people who have a certain ethical stance and try to work backwards from there to justify it.

 

I'm happy to chat about a subject that interests me, but I have no interest in fighting against a person's ideology. So don't worry about dumbing yourself down for me, I don't think this conversation will end up anywhere productive, cheers.

[GoldenEagle]

I hadn't realized your profile is required reading on this site.  ​ Your profile just says 'vegan' and that doesn't really answer my question. Though reading "I don't talk much because I don't want to dumb myself down so that you may understand my intention" gives me a pretty clear idea of your general attitude...

 

The claim that we can get B-12 from dirty vegetables (or the alternative, that B-12 is some sort of hoax) or that we can determine diet through taxonomy are pretty standard vegan claims that don't get much notice out of those circles. I may be mistaken in your case, but I've found that they are generally statements from people who have a certain ethical stance and try to work backwards from there to justify it.

 

I'm happy to chat about a subject that interests me, but I have no interest in fighting against a person's ideology. So don't worry about dumbing yourself down for me, I don't think this conversation will end up anywhere productive, cheers.

Did I ever say that reading anyone's profile was requirement. I personally read profiles for other people if I am curious enough or if I have a question for them that may have already been answered.

 

Generally speaking being Vegan also implies one is against the consumption and exploitation of non-human or human animals entirely, for some they also don't consume honey.

 

Regarding my not talking much...what I posted on the social network called Ello is just one of many reasons and I have had to apologize for my own existence because of other people's misunderstandings of my intentions and or statements on several occasions.

[Derek Grable]

Interesting discussion, guys.  National Geographic did a study on the most long lived populations in the world.  I believe one of them was the people from okinawa.  Another group that they followed were Seventh day Adventists.  This is a group of people that cuts across socio economic and cultural  barriers who have a proven track record of high levels of health.  Not all of them (us, actually, as I am one) are vegetarian, but many are, and many are vegans.  Just thought I'd throw that in there. 

[Colin Macdonald]

Not all of them (us, actually, as I am one) are vegetarian, but many are, and many are vegans.

 

I think the 7th day Adventist group are the only vegetarians. The Okinawans and Sardinians aren't at all, I'm not sure about the others.

 

More importantly these groups are genetically and culturally distinct to a large degree. The amount of confounding factors makes singling out one, all important detail completely impossible.

 

There's an italian centenarian who's diet consists of raw meat, eggs, cookies and pasta, could that be the secret to long life? 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/world/raw-eggs-and-no-husband-since-38-keep-her-young-at-115.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0

 

And more importantly CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION! This cannot be repeated enough... really it can't, so here it is again, CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION!

[Ronnicky Roy]

Exercise is King, Diet is queen. Bring them together and you have a kingdom. Exercise is most important, a good diet will expedite the process. That's really it. You know what every healthy person has in common? They exercise, they sleep enough, they drink enough water. The only thing that all diets agree upon in the world is that you need enough water and enough vegetables. The ultimate truth is likely in there, where we all veer off is everything else. Grain is bad for you/grain is ok in moderation/grain is fine. You need alot of fats for slow, prolonged even energy/eating fat makes you fat/fat makes your brain function better. Protein is best from meat/meat is bad for you and only veggie protein should be eaten. Eat only fish meat/too much fish gives you mercury poisoning. Meat is bad/not if it's organic.