Johnny's Training Log

You are going to end up with an elbow injury similar to mine if you don't back off. Estimate the point at which you have discomfort and stop a few seconds before that. Just do the same total work with more sets so that you don't aggravate your elbows. Let them heal before you start pushing it. I'd say give them two months. In that time you'll make significant progress with the total work you can do, and how long the sets are without discomfort. Any discomfort means you stop right then. That's a basic rule in rehabbing your elbows, and make no mistake: you have an elbow injury. It isn't severe, just some slight tendonitis, but if you don't start being smart about your straight arm stuff and stretch, (some ice immediately after the workout) heat, massage, and do some light weight work around the affected area it will not heal as fast as it should. Weight work is simple, and the idea isn't to specifically strengthen the muscles, it's to work blood through the areas that need healing. You will benefit immensely from light reverse curls with dumbbells and some concentration curls. One set of each almost every day is fine. You want to find a weight you can do 10-15 reps with, and experience absolutely NO PAIN OR DISCOMFORT. ANY bad feeling in your elbow means it's too much. If you can do at least 7 reps before discomfort it's up to you to do 3 sets of 5 instead of 1 longer set. These will not challenge your strength, and will not make you tired. They are simply to accelerate healing. Eventually, when you are healed, you'll be doing 8-10 reps with a weight that actually will make you work to capacity. Until you can do that without pain, you are not healed and need to be careful.

slizzardman, thanks for the input, I really should be reintroducing these movements much more gradually. I had an injury on my left elbow about a year ago from working assisted butterflies, there was a loud popping followed by pain, swelling, bruising and an inability to bend for a week and that one experience of that is more than i'd like.

I want to note though that by slight discomfort, I mean nothing even remotely close to pain, it is a feeling just over the threshold of what i would consider standard. Better to be cautious and I will be more vigilant with my prehab and implement some of your ideas though.

I think for now I'll cut my volume by 50% and just do either the cross or the maltese per week, but not both.

It's good that there's no pain, but if there is discomfort that's to be considered an injury

Cutting volume won't hurt, and slowly building back up over 2-3 months will give your body the time it needs to adapt without any risk of injury.

Safety conscious about my elbows, cut my volume by 30% today, inserted more pre/rehab.

10292009

warmup:

4x15 rotator cuff work with pulleys

30 second XR support hold

1x5 slow wide muscle ups, 5 second supports

complete 2 rounds:

15 second back lever, 3 assisted OAC (10 lbs, no assist on negative)

15 second planche, 5 one leg bridge push ups

15 second front lever, 3 front lever around the worlds (10 lbs on ankles)

elbow rehab:

10 reverse curls (10 lbs)

10 concentration curls (10 lbs)

4x15 straight arm wrists curls (on both angles of bar, extension and flexion)

2x10 wrist pushups

10 min ice each elbow and surrounding area

5 min elbow massaging

5 mins heat

im also taking fish oil to help speed up recovery

back levers should be weighted, i want to start experimenting with different height of the rings as a progression to a one arm back lever. OAC coming along nicely.

need to find a better place to hang my rings for straddle planches, paralletes for now but rings are better. That twinge i felt on my back bends the other day was a good indicator that i require more work on my active flexibility, added in some bridge pushups and lifted a leg up for added difficulty. I would like to record these to asses my shoulder angle.

felt a minuscule sensation resembling discomfort in my left elbow on my second set of levers, good place to stop. Around the worlds are becoming very easy, used 10 lbs on ankles today, will increase volume rather than intensity next time.

If I am to reclaim the lock arm cross, I must start at my weakest link: my joints. hopefully this pre/re hab will supplement my other straight arm work.

10302009

Warmup:

4x15 RCPH

30 sec support

1x5 muscle ups

2 rounds of:

5 PLPU roll back 15 second FL

3 OAFL pulls

5 FLPU muscle up 15 second PL

3 OAFL pulls

5 Bowers 15 second FL

3 OAFL pulls

5 Yewki 15 second PL

3 OAFL pulls

Total of 10 for each specific movement, 20 total for direction of movement, 24 OAFL, 1 min statics.

Finished with: (done all in a row)

1x10 reverse curls (10lbs)

1x10 concentration curls (10lbs)

4x15 wrists (straight arm extension and flexion both angles, bar weight)

2x10 wrist pu (first set extended on ascent, 2nd set extended on descent)

Notes:

0 non standard elbow sensations today, i expected to feel some on the OAFL, but nothing. yay!

PLPU can start working straddle on negative once i find an appropraite place to hang my rings, maybe parallettes instead?

OAFL used 6 lbs first round, 10 lbs second round, able to torque my body to be closer to a back facing the floor instead of the wall position with 10 lbs. Going to work holds with heavier spot next time.

FLPU did a very open tuck, should be doing straddle but again bars are a problem.

Bowers, did in a straddle trying half lay next time.

Yewkis, did in a half lay, doing straight next time or weighted since i'm too tall for the bar.

Next chance I get I'll film a couple of the stretches I've been doing for shoulders and elbows to get some opinions and ideas on them.

Nutrition so far today:

a few cups of yogurt (need to start buying to plain kind and add my own fruit and toppings)

3 scrambled egg sandwich with a large slice of cheese

a hot pocket (there was nothing else to eat around here)

1 L water

1 multi vit, fish oil, calcium, Vit E, 1000mg C (there's a cold going around)

1 Apple

1 Peanut Butter and Nutella sandwich (seriously nothing healthy to eat here!)

Lots of chicken and rice

You eat a lot! :shock: Or maybe I just eat very little... You're in the philippines? You should get a fighting rooster over there, they look really cool.

There's nothing unhealthy about peanut butter and nutella sandwiches.

Sasquatch, I try to eat between 4000-6000 calories a day. 2000 calories per day is a basal metabolic rate, partitioned to be just sufficient enough keep a sedentary person alive. I just relocated about two months ago, no fighting roosters for me though haha.

Slizzardman, If it didn't have so many added simple sugars in the nutella I'd agree that it's a great post workout snack, my blood sugar tends act pretty radically in response though and I crash soon after consumption.

Ah, well you've always got to pay attention to how your body reacts lol Maybe you need more peanut butter on there! Regardless, you have developed excellent abilities, I'm sure you know what works well for you I always do well with a post workout shake and some enriched macaroni, with a real meal of mostly veggies and some chicken 30-60 minutes after that. All those fast carbs will crash me too if I don't have a slow meal right afterwards.

not much of a workout today but i decided to play around in the gym for a bit:

11012009

after properly warming up i played around with the following:

maxed out on weighted bulgarian dips @

1 x 125 lbs for a 300 lbs total dip

3 x 10 second ab strab crosses (did these with the end of the strap at the crevice of my wrist)

a few turns of tuck planche press to handstand

I also reintroduced a few weighted exercises i used to do. They are similar to gregor's planche and maltese exercises but in addition I do a maltese v-up type movement

1 x 10 planche > maltese > back lever (35 lbs)

1 x 10 planche > maltese > back lever (25 lbs)

1 x 10 planche > maltese > back lever (15 lbs)

1 x 10 maltese v-up (25 lbs)

elbow rehab:

1 x 10 reverse curls (15 lbs)

1 x 10 concentraion curls (15 lbs)

4 x 15 forearm curls

elbow update: the right elbow is fine, the left elbow which had sustained an injury in the past feels slightly sore when i flex it all the way, but no pain, will continue to ice and massage. Oddly enough, my right elbow is the one that shows more natural disposition towards hyperextension.

I'm operating under the theory that more workouts with less volume will be easier for my elbows to adapt to. In light of this I decided to forego the extra day off and cut my volume by about 30 % today.

11022009

after a warm up and quick stretch:

2 rounds:

15 second BL, 3 OAC

15 second PL, 5 BgHSPU

15 second FL, 3 L/R FL circles

Intermission:

2 x 3 Bridge walks

2 x 10 Shoulder extensions

2 rounds:

2 x 10 BL>Maltese>PL (25 lbs, then 15 lbs second round)

finished with some good stretching and massaging and currently icing my left elbow.

zero elbow discomfort today

11032009

warm up: (stretch is integrated in this)

4x15 RC

1x3 verrrry slow wide muscle ups in an L

2 x 10 weighted lever rocks (10 lbs)

3 rounds:

10 second assisted OAFL each arm

3 assisted OAFL rocks each arm

3 assisted OAcranks ech arm

intermission:

3x(2x5) one leg up bridge pushups

weighted rehab:

5x5 BL>Mt>PL (1 sec holds 25, 20, 20, 15, 15)

1x10 reverse curls (15 lbs)

1x10 concentration (25 lbs)

4x15 wrists curls (bar)

2x10 wrist pushups

Post workout nutrition:

4 scrambled eggs with a slice of cheese and a dash of milk.

some peanut butter spread on a banana

1 liter of water

1 multi vit, 2000 mg fish oil, 1200 mg calcium

notes:

zero elbow discomfort, awesome.

OAFL work is coming along nicely, i think this set up will be a good addition to extended counterweight set up.

bridge pushups do not challenge my strength but i am doing these to augment my active flexibility as well as improve my static bridge

weighted work is a good finisher/ rehab if done correctly, admittedly i went a little too heavy the other day resulting in sore elbows, the opposite of my aim. today though, I felt that my biceps are relearning how to squeeze and stabilize.

-9SDUqGfVgY

the rocks is almost reminiscent of a pineada cross transition

11042009

nutrition: feel guilty calling it nutrition, but here we go

4 scrambled eggs with a dash of milk and a slice of cheese

1 l water

a hot pocket (blah, i don't know why these are in my freezer)

spirulina apple and soy smoothie

mango torte

ham and cheese bread

spicy floss bread

frozen yogurt with pomello and kiwi

3 meatballs in sauce.

notes: ate like crap today but ive been pretty consistent with diet lately, one day won't kill me.

ts00nami said:

11042009

nutrition: feel guilty calling it nutrition, but here we go

LOL

after yesterdays nutrition crapfest i felt pretty weak and energyless today.

11052009

warm up

main:

40 seconds victorian on ab strab( 15, 12, 13)

3 x 3 slow front lever circles

30 seconds cross (12, 10, 8 )

3 x 3 OAC negatives

intermission:

2 x 3 back bend bridge walks

3 x 5 SLS (20, 15, 0 straight arm extension)

weighted:

3x5 front lever, victorian, "front planche" (15, 10, 10) i'm aiming for a manna but i have zero active flexibility in that ROM\

notes:

running around all day and had crap for nutrition yet again, both a lack of calories and nutrients.

diet and nutrition have HUGE effects on the next day's workout, I felt dead during my workout like I had no power behind any of my movements, depressed mood, physical and mental energy. First time in months feeling like this. After my workout and eating a bit better all of this started improving.

I was going to add a few lightly weighted tricep exercises analagous to the lightly weighted bicep exercises but i don't think it would be as pertinent as the bicep elbow rehab. Gymnasts train movements, not body parts; the purpose of these weighted isolation exercises is for pre/re hab. Thoughts?

after 2 days of disgusting nutrition i am determined to eat better today

a very very early morning snack:

1 large bowl of lean beef, cabbage, potato soup and rice

breakfast:

2 eggs

1 large bowl of oatmeal (milk, not water)

1 L water

post workout:

protein shake (20g whey) with milk

tortang talong and rice (some sort of eggplant and egg dish)

11062009

warm up:

4x15RC

30 seconds wide support hold

1x3 very wide muscle ups (closer to a bent arm butterfly)

main:

30 seconds maltese on ab strabs (12, 10, 8 )

3 x 3 ring turned out dip to bent arm back lever and back

3 x press handstand, 3 BgHSPU, hold at bottom of last rep for 10 seconds, press down.

intermission:

10 shoulder extensions

2 x 10 straight leg lifts front and side

weighted:

5 x 5 BL>MT>PL. 1 s holds (30, 25, 20, 15, 10)

1 x 10 reverse curls (25 lbs)

1 x 10 concentration curls (25 lbs)

4 x 15 wrists curls (bar + 10 lbs)

2 x 10 wrists pushups

notes:

i was going for 30 seconds inverted cross on ab strap but it failed.

shoulder extensions kill me

instead of hip extensions i did straight legged lifts as a progress check, very pleased.

Don't do nearly enough leg or lower back work. Henceforth I declare ALL Mondays as dead lift Mondays.

11092009

3 rounds:

5 x back lever 2 seconds pull to inverted hang

10 second [degrees]90[/degrees] OAC L hold

5 OAFL rocks assisted ring set up

5 seconds OAFL hold (10 lbs counterweight)

Finished with:

deadlifting

1 x 8 135

1 x 5 225

1 x 1 295

1 x 1 365

1 x 1 295

1 x 5 225

1 x 8 135

1 x 1 295

Notes:

OAFL are coming along nicely

Deadlifts, should have stopped before 365, the lift didn't feel safe at that high of weight. Going to practice technique more before attempting anything higher than 1.75 BW

111009

warmup:

standard

main:

3 rounds:

5 BgHSPU 2 second descent, 2 second pause, 2 second ascent, 2 second pause 10 lbs

3 x per round: tuck planche, planche press to handstand, straddle planche negative, rest.

then:

3 x 12 second Mt

Intermission:

3 x 10 hip extensions

Weighted:

5 x 5 BL>Mt>PL (25 lbs, 2 seconds)

1 x 10 reverse curls (30 lbs)

1 x 10 concentration curls (30 lbs)

4 x 15 wrists curls (+10 lbs)

2 x 10 very slow wrists push ups

notes:

I will need to analyze the days previous workout or take a few moments before I proceed onto the days workout to lie down, take a few deep breaths and feel what muscles are sore, which muscles can be worked again and which must be rested. As much as I'd like to simply work movements every day this is not beneficial. Proceeding with planche training after deadlifting was a poor choice in workout design. To be fair however, I did not know to what extent this new movement would effect my body.

I like to workout from a day to day basis and the idea of programming an entire week or so in advanced in order to perfect recovery times does not appeal to me. I will find some other means to analyse and feel my body's needs on the fly, so to speak.

Anyways, BgHSPU are becoming almost trivial.

Tuck planched press to handstand was very challenging with a sore posterior chain, thanks to those deadlifts, it was almost pointless to do these today. Next time I will add deadlifting immediately following planche training.

Malteses are coming along nicely. 36 seconds feels like a viable amount to work this static. I do these with tip toes supported for now. No elbow pain, partially because the decreased time, but I think my added attention to pre hab has also contributed.

I'm impressing myself with my progress on hip extensions. This is probably because I so rarely work legs and this is "beginner's syndrome" progress. Nonetheless I'm very pleased with the improvements, more active flexibility than when I was a competitive gymnast.

Weighted work is showing easy to measure progress which is encouraging, hopefully it translates into bodyweight tangible strength. I opted for a 5 x 5 of same weight today, and I was able to feel it in my biceps a little better.

I almost feel dishonest as a gymnast doing curls, it's a guilty pleasure. But I think it foolish to not use every possible tool available to improve my strength.

[=

ts00nami said:

I was going to add a few lightly weighted tricep exercises analagous to the lightly weighted bicep exercises but i don't think it would be as pertinent as the bicep elbow rehab. Gymnasts train movements, not body parts; the purpose of these weighted isolation exercises is for pre/re hab. Thoughts?

I am using it for increasing strength. I am sure you know you can't do to many of maltesees or from back lever presses to maltese, because they are good damn hard. It's tremendious stress on your whole body. Second thing is that if you are on high level of ring skills all of body weight exercises for biceps are to easy for gaining strength or mass. So I think you must implant some body isolations for body part wich are falling behind (increase for mass and strength or one of this).

You don't think GHR's are isolated work?? But you must do them to prevent injuries and to improve your jumping abilities

Gregor,

By isolated, i mean purposely training only 1 or very few muscles. The weighted BL>Mt>PL works many muscles and hits my biceps much more than an isolated curl would.

My intention of doing isolated bicep work like reverse curls and concentration curls is not to increase my bicep strength, just to help rehab my elbow. So in the same mindset, I wouldn't train triceps extensions to increase my strength, it would be as a pre-hab tool. Isolated work is not an effective method to increase gymnastics strength.

It does seem valid that weight training could be used to help correct weaknesses though. Pretend my lats greatly overpower my biceps, no amount of pull-ups would correct this since the lats would do all of the work, weights could be used to isolate the biceps and correct the weakness.

GHR is not isolated work, it's the entire posterior chain trained in a movement which increases jumping ability. Isolated calf raises are done as ankle pre-hab, not to increase jumping ability; but if the calfs are very weak, then doing isolated calf raises to correct this weakness would improve jumping ability.

Does this sound valid to you?

strength is strength if your muscles know how to squeeze by learning the movement itself, then aditional increase of strength of body some body part wuld help.

And when you are increasing strength and mass you are actualy doing a pre-hab to.

strength is strength if your muscles know how to squeeze by learning the movement itself, then aditional increase of strength of body some body part wuld help.

Very weird to hear this from a gymnast... I cannot agree with this statement. Unfurtunatly, science shows differently. Everything is specific, so a person with an amazing isolated biceps strength and isolated lattisimus strength will not neccesarily have this strength in a combined fashion demonstrated in a complex movment involving those two.

Part of the reason for that lies in the nervous system and the way we coordinate movement, part of it is in the conditioning of the muscular system as a whole. (fascial tension transfer, and other factors)

Having said that, I do agree with the use of some isolated work for 'weak link' conditioning, or a type of structural balance aproach to training and health.

So in a way, I agree with you Gregor, but not from the same reasons...

Ido Portal.

ts00nami said:

Gregor,

By isolated, i mean purposely training only 1 or very few muscles. The weighted BL>Mt>PL works many muscles and hits my biceps much more than an isolated curl would.

My intention of doing isolated bicep work like reverse curls and concentration curls is not to increase my bicep strength, just to help rehab my elbow. So in the same mindset, I wouldn't train triceps extensions to increase my strength, it would be as a pre-hab tool. Isolated work is not an effective method to increase gymnastics strength.

It does seem valid that weight training could be used to help correct weaknesses though. Pretend my lats greatly overpower my biceps, no amount of pull-ups would correct this since the lats would do all of the work, weights could be used to isolate the biceps and correct the weakness.

GHR is not isolated work, it's the entire posterior chain trained in a movement which increases jumping ability. Isolated calf raises are done as ankle pre-hab, not to increase jumping ability; but if the calfs are very weak, then doing isolated calf raises to correct this weakness would improve jumping ability.

Does this sound valid to you?

To claim that weights or isolation exercises are good to correct weaknesses but not to build strength is insane in the clinical definition. It is out of touch with reality. Freeweight work increases muscular strength, just as bodyweight work does. Isolation work increases strength just as compound work does. There are certain muscles that simply require isolation work to strengthen in certain situations.

Consider this: I doubt anyone here would disagree with Gregor if he was using weighted wall HSPU to strengthen his triceps, but there seems to be some level of disbelief that his isolation work with weights could possibly help him. The fact is that HSPU is primarily a tricep exercise, and can be considered isolation work for the triceps. Before you claim that it's not isolation since the shoulders and forearms are working too, as well as some core stabilization, you can say the EXACT SAME THING about any tricep exercise you care to mention. They all require the forearm to work as the hands grip the muscle, and they all require the shoulder girdle to stay stable and support the weight as the triceps straighten the arm. The real problem here is the concept of a "mental set." That means that there are specific ideas about what uses specific tools have. Some people think that a screwdriver is just there to turn screws, while a car thief is well aware that that screwdriver can get them into the car, get the car started, and kill the owner if necessary so they can steal it.

Just because you are not used to thinking of a screwdriver as a murder weapon, car key, or ignition device does not mean it cannot function as one, and do so every bit as well as something else. In fact, it may work better for certain situations. If your starter is blown, you can still use the screwdriver to jump the contacts around it to get your car going, which you can't do with the key because it isn't big enough.

In the same line of reasoning, just because you think of bicep curls as prehab does not mean they can not be used to successfully improve your gymnastic performance, and in some cases do a better job of strengthening the biceps than your planche-maltese-bl presses. Just because a muscle gets tired or "burns" more does not mean it is getting stronger. That doesn't mean you should stop doing those presses, what it does mean is that you can use the bicep and reverse curls to improve your performance faster than you could without them, and reduce your risk of injury in the process.

Ido Portal said:

strength is strength if your muscles know how to squeeze by learning the movement itself, then aditional increase of strength of body some body part wuld help.

Very weird to hear this from a gymnast... I cannot agree with this statement. Unfurtunatly, science shows differently. Everything is specific, so a person with an amazing isolated biceps strength and isolated lattisimus strength will not neccesarily have this strength in a combined fashion demonstrated in a complex movment involving those two.

Part of the reason for that lies in the nervous system and the way we coordinate movement, part of it is in the conditioning of the muscular system as a whole. (fascial tension transfer, and other factors)

Having said that, I do agree with the use of some isolated work for 'weak link' conditioning, or a type of structural balance aproach to training and health.

So in a way, I agree with you Gregor, but not from the same reasons...

Ido Portal.

I think what you are missing here is that while a person may have great bicep and lat strength, they may not have the strength necessary in the smaller muscles of the shoulders to effectively use both in a movement such as a muscle-up or whatever other complex movement, just as the muscles of the spine and other areas may not be conditioned to handle the stresses of the movement. Your reasoning for why the lack of combined strength expression is present in the hypothetical individual is not taking into account the more basic reasons why the two muscles are unable to express power together in a complex movement. I know, that is accounted for in the "conditioning of the muscular system as a whole( fascial tension transfer, and other factors)" bit, and in doing so you are missing the fact that your own answer is telling you that isolated work CAN help.

In your own words, the reason that isolated strength doesn't necessarily transfer to complex movements is two-fold:

1. The body may not have accomplished the neural learning to perform the movement.

and

2. The rest of the musculature may not be developed enough to support power transfer in complex movements.

By this reasoning, if you accomplish the neural learning, AND you have developed your body in a well-rounded fashion to the point where it is capable of performing complex movements, then there is nothing that says or even implies that isolated work can not or will not transfer to a skill involving the muscle being isolated. By definition, if something doesn't NOT WORK, then it does work. The degree to which it works is not determined by this logic, but the fact that it does work to some degree is. If you want to shoot it down, then experiment with it yourself and report back. If you do specific isolated work for your shoulders and triceps and see no increased improvement in, say, your one arm elbow lever to one arm handstand press, then you could tell us for sure that at least in this case, the isolated training is a waste of time.

There are more people than just gregor seeing results from this type of training, which is probably why the chinese team is incorporating weight training. Even Van Gelder does isolated bicep work. Both your own logic and the anecdotal claims of many high level competitors support the idea that traditional training methods plus isolation work can improve performance, when used appropriately, to a greater degree than traditional training methods alone.

I think what you are missing here is that while a person may have great bicep and lat strength, they may not have the strength necessary in the smaller muscles of the shoulders to effectively use both in a movement such as a muscle-up or whatever other complex movement, just as the muscles of the spine and other areas may not be conditioned to handle the stresses of the movement.

I am not missing anything, my friend, what you have mentioned is another reason to train the movement and not the muscles, you will never achieve the correct conditioning and preparation for the shoulder joint, specific to the iron cross, for example, using an isolated work - not matter how many external rotations you will perform in isolation. SAID priciple dictates - SPESIFIC Adaptation to Imposed Demand. Spesific is much more specific than you think..

So, using an isolated aproach to tailor together a program will not work without training the movement. Only as a 'weak link' solution like I adviced.

and in doing so you are missing the fact that your own answer is telling you that isolated work CAN help.

In your great hurry to debate you have missed the point where I said isolated work CAN help, as a booster to a weak link along the muscular chain. It can help and can be used, but it is clearly not 'the most bang for your buck', nor is it a total aproach to training, but an auxilery addition instead.

If you want to shoot it down, then experiment with it yourself and report back. If you do specific isolated work for your shoulders and triceps and see no increased improvement in, say, your one arm elbow lever to one arm handstand press, then you could tell us for sure that at least in this case, the isolated training is a waste of time.

Dear friend, before sending me to experiment with things I 'should experiment with and report back', maybe you should experiment with a bit of humility. I lifted weights for over 15 years and competed in powerlifting. I also own my own strength and conditioning facility for the last 7 years, fully equiped with squat racks, free weights,etc... I have trained numerous clients and some of them competed in the national and international level in various sports, including track and field, capoeira, martial arts, powerlifting. My videos can speak of my own ability, so I wont mentioned that. I am also a certified strength and conditioning coach along with another certification in nutrition. I give workshops world wide on these subjects. What have you done lately? Where are your accomplishments, vast experience and former clients to prove your aproach is working? where are your bodyweight exercises video performances so that we can admire the effectiveness of your 'isolated work' aproach to bodyweight skills?

Have some respect and know who you are talking to before you send me 'to experiment' with things I have been doing for years.

There are more people than just gregor seeing results from this type of training, which is probably why the chinese team is incorporating weight training. Even Van Gelder does isolated bicep work. Both your own logic and the anecdotal claims of many high level competitors support the idea that traditional training methods plus isolation work can improve performance, when used appropriately, to a greater degree than traditional training methods alone.

To finish, lets address this point:

1. All that you have mentioned - the elite using isolated work, etc.. Can be used for the reason of 'weak link' conditioning, as I have mentioned before - this is a valid aproach.

2. All those that you have mentioned can be where they are at IN SPITE of their training and not BECAUSE of it. In the elite sport scene there are many more with great genetics and bad training than there are those with good training habits. The chinese, for example, is a selective system, the ones who can endure the chinese training, for years, are so talented and has such a big work capacity, everything works with them, as long as they are still using the rings in addition. It is not a proof of anything.

3. I can bring you 5 gymnasts ring specialists from the elite that doesnt train with weights in isolation at all for every 1 that does. Actualy, most never do it, and never will.

4. Those gymnasts free weights numbers are again, proving my point - there is little transfer. Even though the transfer is greater from gymnastics to freeweights than the other way around (closed kinetic chain to open kinetic chain, in general) you can clearly see that people with amazing ability on the rings, like gregor, can easly do malteses, planches, HSPU, crosses, etc... and can only bench 95 Kg for 5X5. (Not to say that it is not a good accomplishment, but comparing the level of strength on the rings to the bench press, if there was a direct transfer, you would expect a triple bodyweight bench press or close to that, especialy considering the light bodyweight...)

People, I come from a freeweight training background. There is little or no transfer to bodyweight and gymanstics type strength and conditioning. Period. I have seen very strong people in the weight room being humilieted by a simple bodyweight exercise. I am sure many of you share the same experience.

Also, let us not forget: using isolated muscular training is considered a less effective aproach even in the freeweight training scene. The only place where it is still valid is Bodybuilding and... structural balance. (Weak link conditioning)

Do the math.

Ido Portal.