Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Sign in to follow this  
Guest Ido Portal

Explosive shoulder girdle development

Recommended Posts

Guest Ido Portal

Closed Kinetic Chain Push Presses - Explosive Shoulder Girdle development using your bodyweight - Floreio Training Demo

8oiXVBXUMG4

A staple in my own and my student's training,

Ido.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
braindx

The only thing I don't like about them is the limited ROM... so after developing these solid I'd say try to take them to parallettes if possible. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Blairbob

Pretty easy, we have the kids do these all the time. It's what the girl's groups do a lot ( never trying strict though they do them with head in between shoulders on the wall ).

I like that hopping handstand pushup blocking drill that Allan Bowers was doing across the floor in a video.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Ido Portal

Braindx, my view of full ROM is as follows:

as long as you include the full ROM as part of your training, using shorter ROMs in some movments can be a very useful tool.

For example, the Handstand hopping the coach published,(it is also a limited ROM, but has a lot of value) Quarter rythmic squat work (A great tool for explosiveness and jumping ability, etc..) and other motions.

The use of full ROM is very important, dont get me wrong, but it can be supported by many other tools as well.

Blairbob, I also like the hopping HSPU, but they are more similar to explosive military presses than to a push press - like the motion I demonstrated. Both are valuable tools.

By the way, my record in the Gatherings Advanced version is 38 reps. And it was done after a lot of maximal strength work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
David Picó García

wow, i've done this movements many times but in two separates exercises, Headstand PU and liftig legs, but never, never, imagined to join both. Thank's for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Blairbob

I teach the HeS>HS(PU) as a progression for the headspring. First they learn it in tuck, then in pike; and then I add that we do it to a bridge. We also work neck/floor kips as well for HeSpring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Coach Sommer

Nice element, I would not however classify this as an explosive shoulder girdle element, but simply as a kipping HeSPU. It is quite useful as an introductory element for those not yet strong enough to perform non-kipping HeSPU.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Ido Portal

I agree, this is basicly a kipping Headstand Push Ups, or can also be compared to OL push presses. Exactly like Push Presses you create a sequential summation of forces to propel the weight/bodyweight into the air, in a faster speed possible than using only the joints and muscles involved in the movement itself. (non kipping HSPU)

Push Presses will be used with heigher weights and faster speeds than military presses even with advanced Olifters, along with other movements that are placed differently along the force/velocity curve. (Olifter will MP, push press, push jerk, jerk, etc.) The trick is to increase difficuly, instead of abandoning a useful tool - for example extending faster into the HS, jumping into a box with this motion, for distance, with a weight vest, for more reps, etc...

In my view, this multiple use of tools along the pure strength to pure speed continuum is your best bet for prevention of stagnation, devevelopment of a more complete neuromuscular control, efficiency of the spring elastic elements in the tendon/muscle and more. Part of the specialization process seen today in anything from sports to medicine is this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Coach Sommer

Interesting post with some good points, there are however several observations regarding it that I would like to share.

[kipping HeSPU] ... create a sequential summation of forces to propel the weight/bodyweight into the air, in a faster speed possible than using only the joints and muscles involved in the movement itself. (non kipping HSPU)

Yes, kipping HeSPU are certainly a faster movement; but that is not necessarily inherently positive. Speed, in and of itself, is only useful when it leads to a desired training effect. In this instance, speed is not increasing the adapatative strength effect of the movement (e.g. faster and faster meaning heavier and heavier or resulting in more resistance overcome), but rather reducing the training load compared to regular HeSPU.

It should always be stressed, especially for beginners, that an over reliance on speed for execution will ultimately short circuit the long term development of basic strength. This is something that has been shown repeatedly over the last few years by the multitudes of fitness enthusiasts who have only performed kipping muscle-ups and yet still find themselves unable to progress toward performing a single non-kipping repetition.

[kipping HeSPU] ... can also be compared to OL push presses. Exactly like Push Presses you create a sequential summation of forces to propel the weight/bodyweight into the air ... Push Presses will be used with heigher weights and faster speeds than military presses even with advanced Olifters, along with other movements that are placed differently along the force/velocity curve. (Olifter will MP, push press, push jerk, jerk, etc.)

If, as in olympic lifting, the primary goal is to simply move heavier and heavier weights, then yes the above series is more efficient. However the ability to move heavier weights is inconsequential if it results in less work being done by the muscle group originally being targeted. It is important to note that as one progresses through the overhead series mentioned above that the lower body increasingly becomes the primary mover while the weight itself is moved through a smaller and smaller ROM. For olympic lifting, this allows the weaker nature of the shoulder girdle vs. the hip girdle to be marginalized. This is not however possible, or even desirable in Gymnastic Strength Training™ where shoulder girdle strength is of supreme importance and increasing it should be one of the primary focuses.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Ido Portal

Coach, very good points, however I have some other interesting points one should consider:

1. The problem with the kipping Mups and the normal ones lies in the differences in the transition phase of the Mup. The neglection to condition and practice this phase in the kipping variation makes kipping in the Mup an inferior choice. I agree with you here, but not from the same reasons.

A fast, correct muscle up, going through the correct transition however, can be useful.

2. I cannot agree with your observation about basic strength development and speed work. CAT - Compensatory Acceleration Training theory supports a different conclusion. For fast twitch recuiretment, one should always strive for the fastest contraction possible in the concentric phase of the movement.

However, I agree that bringing in a different muscle group to create a faster speed will not assure the benefits of a faster motion to be demonstrated in the muscle group which is mainly responsible for the motion. So, it depends.

3.

if it results in less work being done by the muscle group originally being targeted
this is not inherently correct, since faster speeds with a lighter weight CAN produce the same or MORE amount of work done with heigher weights. What I was suggesting is using all tools possible - faster, heavier, etc... for better overall development. I am not concentrating on pure strength here, nor speed, nor the middle speed-strength but on all to some degree.

I agree with your observation of Olifters as opposed to gymnasts, but I do not suggest using solely speed or speed-strength methods, but merely incorporating them some of the time for the athlete who is after a general development.

Coach, thank you for your writeup, I enjoy this very much, and understand that there is no black and white when training the human organism is in question.

Ido.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Coach Sommer
A fast, correct muscle up, going through the correct transition however, can be useful.

Useful how? By its very definition, a fast MU already contains an incorrect transition.

2. We will agree to disagree.

3.

if it results in less work being done by the muscle group originally being targeted this is not inherently correct, since faster speeds with a lighter weight CAN produce the same or MORE amount of work done with heigher weights.

Please provide some Gymnastic Strength Training™ specific examples.

What I was suggesting is using all tools possible - faster, heavier, etc... for better overall development. I am not concentrating on pure strength here, nor speed, nor the middle speed-strength but on all to some degree.

I agree with your observation of Olifters as opposed to gymnasts, but I do not suggest using solely speed or speed-strength methods, but merely incorporating them some of the time for the athlete who is after a general development.

It is important for those reading this discussion to understand that these are advanced training concepts and are most productively applied to intermediate and advanced athletes. To attempt to incorporate them into the repertoire of a Gymnastic Strength Training™ beginner who still lacks a solid foundation of basic strength will be inefficient at best and physically damaging at worst. A beginner is best served, in both the short term and the long term, by focusing on establishing a solid foundation of basic strength. Athletically, all else will of necessity proceed from this foundation.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Ido Portal

1. CAT research indicates differently. Useful for what? For the recruitment and development of the pulling and pushing musculature involved in the motion. From the transition technical perspective, of course this is not a useful technical option for learning the movement, but some benefits can be derived from performing easier variations (or lighter loads) in faster speeds - like research suggests.

2. Gymnastics likes to codify every movment into either 'swinging element' or 'strength move'. From that stems the understanding that a movement should either be performed as fast as possible using momentum or as slow as you can, using muscular strength, but the movement world is not limited to those two traits. There is a complete continuum that exists between pure speed and pure strength, and every movment along that continuum may be legit for some uses. I agree that because of gymnastics judging, gymnasts may not have a lot of benefit in training fast muscle ups, but it does not mean the fitness enthusiast may not benefit from such practice - as a speed-strength element. (Like used in WestSide barbell to induce further gains in MAXIMAL STRENGTH non the less)

If you think this is not useful, you rule out a whole aspect of strength and conditioning training research dealing with the CAT method and speed strength development and its effect on maximal strength.

By the way, on the same token one can offer that an Olifter should not Military Press because they are only Jerking in competition... Of course not, using a method from the other side of the continuum may be a useful use of SOME of your time.

The same can be said about the movement I provided, and that is not even from the original perspective I presented it for - Strength Endurance and Metabolic Conditioning practice, along with its artistic uses in my movement modality - Floreio.

As for beginners, what is your definition of Basic Strength, coach? This phrase does not apear in the litterature and cannot be defined. But I agree that CAT training is an advanced training method and not an efficient use of a beginner to the strength training time.

Ido.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Richard Duelley

I dont really know much of the scientific details, I am just speaking from my own experiences over the past year of hand balancing and gymnastics style conditioning work.

When I was doing them it forced me to use my body in an interesting and new way. I had to coordinate everything in order to press into the handstand keep it balanced. If I kicked too hard I would fall over, if to light I would fall over or really have to muscle through it (planche it up). If I got it just right I would just . . . hmmm I am having trouble wording this. . . flow (I think that works) into the handstand and hold it no sweat. Going back down into the headstand was a whole new ball game and I had the same problems as with going up. If I had to much tension in my abs or back I would fall out of balance, if I concentrated too much on that I would go down a little too fast and bump my head on the floor :roll: When I got it just right I would go down nicely back into the headstand. After watching me do a few I had just bout everyone else in the gym trying them and even my extremely strong friend (free standing handstand pushups on rings are a common staple in his training regime) was having the same problems I was.

To me the element posted is a great "get to know your body better" movement and it was fun to work on just like holding a static handstand with various leg positions or movements. If its too easy for some I dont see why you cant add a pirouette (or hop or whatever) into the movement before going back into a headstand.

Just my experience with the movment, and I thought it would help to get some leymans thoughts out there.

:mrgreen:

-Ricky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nic Scheelings

Ricky,

I like the way you have summed up this movement, this is how i feel as well. Althouh i'm capable of freestanding hespu, i found combining these two elements to be challenging and fun. Perhaps they are a good way of teaching body co-ordination to develop power?

Like the example that Ido has used of the push press in oly lifting. Normally in oly lifting u learn military pres first, then push press, then push jerk, then jerk. Perhas this is a good precursor to the hopping hespu?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gittit Shwartz

Some more layman ideas - I'm thinking, as a strength move, advanced Gatherings might be a tool for training the "lockout" of the handstand - i.e., not your staple exercise for bent-arm pressing strength, but good for learning to explosively extend the shoulders and squeeze them to lock under a sudden force (the drop-off of the momentum from the kip). Although, this may only apply to someone with a lower level of strength (I think 6 gatherings is my record and maybe 1 freestanding HSPU).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Blairbob

While training pure strength is optimal for recruiting motor units in general it is not the preferred training modality for being able to quickly recruit said motor units per interval time ( basically speed training ).

in StartingStrength, Mark Rippetoe adds the skill of the powerclean to teach beginners how to recruit motor units quickly besides the PC having other uses. Think of this as speed DL in many PL systems.

For super beginners, we need to train pure strength and base strength but for even compulsory gymnasts, we must incorporate some speed training for stuff like tumbling and vaulting.

For instance, I will need to teach and coach my boys in the ability to properly Handstand block/shrug/pop for front handspring in time. It's not a high priority right now since they're static HS and walking HS are still poor for the most part but some of the boys are just about ready to.

Speed training doesn't make much sense for beginners but once they are beyond the beginner stage, it's a necessary tool. I didn't say advanced stage, but merely advanced beginner-intermediate stage.

A similar movement than any advanced beginner/intermediate could do that we have been exposed in the GB program for dynamic power are those wallabies. Basically pushup/prone position and pop off the hands without bending the arms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×

Important Information

Please review our Privacy Policy at Privacy Policy before using the forums.