Gymnastic Bodies and Oly Lifting

[blakeavery]

I currently train in Oly lifting 4-5 times a week.  I'd like to start a foundations program with a reduced Oly training load.  Should I do foundations 1 or rings 1? I some mobility issues in my shoulder, upper thoracic, and hip flexors.  Which program would have the most transfer to Olympic weight lifting?

 

Thank you for any help

[ussjkenny]

Here you will find a list of courses in the order. Foundation comes before Rings. 

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/12862-the-gymnasticbodies-roadmap-and-curriculum/

[Alexander Egebak]

I would recommend doing F1 and H1 maybe 2 times a week for both. Olympic lifting could be once a week on a maintenance level, but especially the foundation program will suck up a lot of your recovery quota. H1 can also be a great shoulder warm up for OL unless you do compete since it will put down your power output just a bit.

[Blairbob]

 

"Olympic lifting could be once a week on a maintenance level"

 

 

 

 Bahahahhah. That's a big difference and one that will pretty much tank any progress in Weightlifting.

 

 

You need to start at the beginning. Probably reduce WL to 2, preferably 3 sessions a week.

 

You could possibly do split sessions per day. F1/H1 earlier on or as the first part of your session. Then WL. Or just hit only a Sn or CJ work per day instead of both. One day try to hit both Sn&CJ in the session.

 

 

 

[Coach Sommer]

... Bahahahhah. That's a big difference and one that will pretty much tank any progress in Weightlifting ...

Perhaps. However, if such an frequency of lifting is essential, how do you explain several of my athletes jerking 1.5x bodyweight the first time they were ever taught the jerk?

It is important to remember that olympic lifting is not being developed in isolation when it is done simultaneously with GST; and that the normal programming requirements for olympic lifting development almost certainly do not apply.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Jan Reipert]

Probably because they have lots of explosive lower body power i guess, which will have a very nice carryover to the jerk. The jerk also requires much less technique than a snatch or even a full clean. I think in most cases the two lifts can be seen more as skills than strength work so they lend themselves to higher frequency.

[Alexander Egebak]

The question about work capacity is being ignored completely here. I doubt that anyone would be able to train F1 4 times a week and then weightlifting 2-3 times a week for long, especially if they are not used to the volume. And then consider mixing with H1.

 

It could also be very time consuming if one has a job.

[Alan Tseng]

The question about work capacity is being ignored completely here. I doubt that anyone would be able to train F1 4 times a week and then weightlifting 2-3 times a week for long, especially if they are not used to the volume. And then consider mixing with H1.

It could also be very time consuming if one has a job.

It won't really be, weightlifting won't be implemented for someone still on F1 level. Weighted leg work wouldn't be implemented until someone has mastered SLS

[Blairbob]

 

Perhaps. However, if such an frequency of lifting is essential, how do you explain several of my athletes jerking 1.5x bodyweight the first time they were ever taught the jerk?

 As you stated in the podcasts, it was more of a Push Press that split than a textbook jerk ala the Chinese (much less than Squat Jerk funkiness) or Soviet looking jerk.

Considering that many of your gymnasts are already VERY strong, it's not a huge stretch of the imagination. I think a long time ago in the CF forum we pretty figured out a strict HSPU on parallettes was equal to about 90% BW or so, possibly 95%. Find an athlete who can press BW or BW+ (up to 1.25), let them play around with how to use their hips a bit and that doesn't really surprise me at all.

It isn't uncommon for many athletes to get anywhere from 10-30% more on their push press than strict press. Dmitry Klokov presses 180kg and push presses 225 which means he gets 25% more. Most his ratios are dead on with the Soviet textbook ratios.

So find me an athlete who can BW press to 125% of BW (if not more) and let them push press to get 15-30% more. Especially an athlete that is very accustomed to using just a few inches of a squat for tumbling/vaulting. I remember my friend in college bench pressed nearly twice his weight (#255) on his first day of pressing and using a barbell. He weighed about #130 @ 5'7" or so and still do a straddle planche besides straight arm ring kip.

Bench Press to OverheadPress ratio is supposed to be around 2/3rds so that would be an estimated #165 OHP @#130 BW which is 120% of BW.

If someone only wants to do weightlifting once a week, that's fine. It's just that progress is dead slow (having tried that) at that pace. Not so much with the jerk (though it can be complicated) as it can be with the snatch and clean. I had pretty good success getting our young guys to Push Jerk in one session (though Split Jerk would take a lot more work). Press, Push Press, Press under, Push Press+Press Under. Granted none of them really had really bad shoulder mobility and were in their teens.

1-2x/week seems to be more than enough for young children and young teens but they are so "plastic" at that age compared to a young adult in their mid 20's much less 30-40.

Twice a week for skill training is better than once and thrice is even better. We see this a lot in recreational gymnastics and pre-competitive training. After that it seems you start running into the law of diminishing gains and having to get more specific and fancy with the programming. It's stressful and becomes grinding. Also, at some point people don't want to SnCJ 3x/week or more much less 5-6x or even 9-12 sessions a week.

If someone is lifting 4-5x/week that makes me think they really want to get good at it. Thus they are at a WL bias. Huge difference of 1x/wk to 4-5x/wk.

I mean really gets down if you are pursuing this for recreational/health purposes or "To be all you can be."

[Coach Sommer]

A lot of good information, Blair. However my athletes' progress was not 'dead slow'.

Nor was one of my adult students, Niels, who is just now finishing up F4 and at approx 80kg bodyweight power cleaned just shy of 100kg the second time he ever worked cleans.

My primary point is that seriously pursuing GST speeds up olympic lifting progress.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Jurre]

Then again, seriously pursuing Olympic Lifting speeds up Olympic Lifting even more. 
If you want to be a good Oly lifter, use GST as complementary.

[Coach Sommer]

Then again, seriously pursuing Olympic Lifting speeds up Olympic Lifting even more. 

If you want to be a good Oly lifter, use GST as complementary.

If you want to focus on OL as a primary, then you are in the wrong forum.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Blairbob]

 

Nor was one of my adult students, Niels, who is just now finishing up F4 and at approx 80kg bodyweight power cleaned just shy of 100kg the second time he ever worked cleans.

What I wonder is what was he able to squat and pull before and if he had ever done so.

[Coach Sommer]

No, he doesn't squat or pull.  He has been focusing solely on GST for a number of years now.

 

The same as my own athletes were not squatting or pulling either.  

 

It is important to understand that focusing on proper GST and then introducing OL at the correct time results in much higher than anticipated OL proficiency.   This approach requires a paradigm shift in conventional OL methodology.  A new ball game with new rules.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer