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speters

A few questions regarding the cross

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speters

1. What is the length of the ring straps/cables used in competition?

2. Is there a difference in difficulty when performing an iron cross that use straps like the XR Ring version vs. cables (do they even use cables)???

3. How much harder is a cross performed on rings that are hung with short straps (under 6 feet) vs. a longer length (over 6 feet) from anchor point to actual ring?

4. Why can't I perform an iron cross......just kidding?

Thanks,

Sean

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Blairbob

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rings_(gymnastics)

That would be 3m straps nearly 11 feet long. Most straps on pullup bars at home or 2-3 feet, maybe 5 at most. It makes a difference. The longer straps, the harder all support work will be.

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braindx

Difficult depends on the exact length. About ~3-4 feet length straps is the easiest. IIRC the rings on the ring tower are about 15' or so long.

Doing them on 3-4' length is probably 80-90% or so of the strength required to do it on full length. So if you get it on the short ones, don't expect to be able to do it on the real ones.

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Joshua Naterman
Difficult depends on the exact length. About ~3-4 feet length straps is the easiest. IIRC the rings on the ring tower are about 15' or so long.

Doing them on 3-4' length is probably 80-90% or so of the strength required to do it on full length. So if you get it on the short ones, don't expect to be able to do it on the real ones.

You really think it was that high on the short straps? I could go down really far in the cross on 4' straps, like 15 degrees off of perfect. But just the support hold on 10 foot straps is super hard! I was really surprised by that.

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Blairbob

Yep. It's also different for Steve because he is super adapted to ring work compared to the rest of us.

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Joshua Naterman

Ah, that would definitely make a difference.

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braindx
Difficult depends on the exact length. About ~3-4 feet length straps is the easiest. IIRC the rings on the ring tower are about 15' or so long.

Doing them on 3-4' length is probably 80-90% or so of the strength required to do it on full length. So if you get it on the short ones, don't expect to be able to do it on the real ones.

You really think it was that high on the short straps? I could go down really far in the cross on 4' straps, like 15 degrees off of perfect. But just the support hold on 10 foot straps is super hard! I was really surprised by that.

Yeah, I'm used to working on both long rings and short rings so I have the stability intact for both. Just like I would say that with perfect technique the muscle up progression is:

kipping on bar

kipping on rings

deadhang on rings

deadhang on bar

-----------------------

Anyway, it's pretty clear that you need more work on long strap rings if there's that big of a disparity. Your main movers (chest/lats) are probably really strong, but your stabilizers + small movement correction from pecs/lats is lacking.

And remember, if you didn't before, that 30 degrees cross is pretty easy. Every 10 degrees from there is probably 15% harder than the last. Getting to 45 degrees from cross I could do when I started, but it still took me 20 months to work up to real cross from there (although I didn't nkow how to program well then).In estimation ~45 degrees is probably only 40% of the strength required if that. So ~15 degrees is still about 25% of the strength away + the transition to long rings (once you make up the disparity) you're probably at about 60-65% of the strength required to do it. Still pretty damn impressive at your weight though.. you could do it at my weight with your strength. :)

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Joshua Naterman
Difficult depends on the exact length. About ~3-4 feet length straps is the easiest. IIRC the rings on the ring tower are about 15' or so long.

Doing them on 3-4' length is probably 80-90% or so of the strength required to do it on full length. So if you get it on the short ones, don't expect to be able to do it on the real ones.

You really think it was that high on the short straps? I could go down really far in the cross on 4' straps, like 15 degrees off of perfect. But just the support hold on 10 foot straps is super hard! I was really surprised by that.

Yeah, I'm used to working on both long rings and short rings so I have the stability intact for both. Just like I would say that with perfect technique the muscle up progression is:

kipping on bar

kipping on rings

deadhang on rings

deadhang on bar

-----------------------

Anyway, it's pretty clear that you need more work on long strap rings if there's that big of a disparity. Your main movers (chest/lats) are probably really strong, but your stabilizers + small movement correction from pecs/lats is lacking.

And remember, if you didn't before, that 30 degrees cross is pretty easy. Every 10 degrees from there is probably 15% harder than the last. Getting to 45 degrees from cross I could do when I started, but it still took me 20 months to work up to real cross from there (although I didn't nkow how to program well then).In estimation ~45 degrees is probably only 40% of the strength required if that. So ~15 degrees is still about 25% of the strength away + the transition to long rings (once you make up the disparity) you're probably at about 60-65% of the strength required to do it. Still pretty damn impressive at your weight though.. you could do it at my weight with your strength. :)

HAHAHAHA, I imagine there's a number of things I could do at your weight with my strength lol :) You are absolutely right about the stabilizers, I also noticed that my large muscles get a better workout on the long rings. I can hold 45 degree wide RTO support for at least 45 seconds, I didn't think it was worth holding longer than that. That's after close to a month on the long rings a few times a week. I suppose that means I can do 45 degree cross, I'll try it next workout. The dips are much harder on my shoulders with the long rings, that's for sure. And yea, that last little bit on the cross is ridiculous, I could tell that there was a significant amount of strength I needed to gain for that :) Pretty wild. I have mad respect for all of you who can do that.

Now, for the muscle up progressions, I can do around 5 on a bar, I think. I haven't actually maxed, but I can't even begin to try one on the rings. It's freaking HARD. I suppose that has a lot to do with my weight, but what do you think my progression should be as far as ability in each progression before I try the next?

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braindx

Depends on what you want to do...

If you want to develop a deadhanger on rings you need to work negatives, assisted positives (spotted or band or pulley assisted) + very deep dips and chest/abs high pullups

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Joshua Naterman

Chest/ab highs on the rings? I need to get busy. I can do them on the straight bar, but that's not the same I know. I'm working on progressively deeper dips, my right shoulder holds me back a bit still, but it's getting better! I can almost do a jumping muscle up on the rings lol! I get stuck halfway through the transition. But that's with the rings so high that I can only get a few inches for my hop. So it's not too much of an assist. I'm going to figure something out with the bands next time I am out there, I know that's key. And the negatives. Man, those are so hard for me. But I am better than i was, I used to just fall right through them. Now I fall under control :P And yes, my goal is a good form deadhang muscleup. Of course i want to do them in sets, but first thing's first: One. I'll tell you one thing, my chest is going to be freaking MASSIVE when I can do muscleups and the cross. Every time I am out there I feel it more and more. It's kind of crazy. Like my body is learning to use it more each time.

Today I did 3 rounds of spotted muscleup to 20 second wide support, 15 second 45 degree cross, then 5 dips with the rings at the 45 degrees out position, so they stay wide the whole time. Then a halfway-controlled negative muscleup dismount. With the long rings I can't do a full lay front lever, I'm back to one leg full lay, one leg half lay. Straddle for the back lever.

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braindx

It's slow going especially at you're weight.

Just keep plugging and you'll get there.

Will be all the more impressive once you can post vids of yourself on youtube or whatever. :P

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Joshua Naterman

Yea, that's what I figure :P I have the time, I'm only 27.

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Joshua Naterman

Thanks for your input, by the way! I really appreciate it.

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Chris

How much do you weigh? last week a saw a 105kg guy attempting a muscle up, gave him a bit of advice and he made it, kinda sloppy with a lil' bit of kipping, but still it was pretty darn impressive.

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Joshua Naterman

220 lbs, so i guess right at 100 kg. I can do bar muscle-ups on a two inch bar, or a two and a half, I don't actually know which it is. It will be a little while before I will be doing rings muscleups, but I am slowly working the transition on the bars and parallel bars, and it's slowly getting better :)

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David Picó García

Your problem with muscle up i think is just technical. For a normal muscle up not wide and slow you haven't to be very strong is just the rigth technic and flexibility at the bottom portion of the dip also helps. Try to do them moving your hands next to the chest while going up (like a close grip chinup). The more you move the outside, more difficult it would be. And go as up as possible with the chin up and then move explosively your elbow up. After the first muscle up you'll get the technique and can work on proper and slower form (non kipping).

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Joshua Naterman
Depends on what you want to do...

If you want to develop a deadhanger on rings you need to work negatives, assisted positives (spotted or band or pulley assisted) + very deep dips and chest/abs high pullups

I've followed your advice and the super deep dips are really helping. I'm trying to do slow russian dips, for the last half of the transition, and I am not really sure what to do besides the super high pullups for the first half. It's going well though, much more power. I can pretty much power all the way through without stopping or slowing down much in the transition, which is nice. I'm using a thick bar, it's either 2 or 2.5 inches. I don't know how that affects things, but it seems like it makes it harder.

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braindx

If you want to develop the slow transition focus on pulling the rings to your nipples.

Then (1) pull your elbows straight back and (2) lean forward so that your armpits center over your hands.

From there it's just a deep dip.

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Joshua Naterman

WIll do. Thanks! I'm going to try out some negatives today, and see how I feel on a band-assisted muscleup i suppose :P

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